Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[ben dover123]

pagetop
Answer this RQS please before reading:

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

4. How active will you be in this game?

[Battle Mage]

pagetop
Answer this RQS please before reading:

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

4. How active will you be in this game?

what a time to return! we're back at the RQS again?

I think the only one I didnt answer yet is 4. Hopefully reasonably active for the next 2 weeks, although I'm in too many games lol

[LavarManos]

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

[ben dover123]

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

Woah woah woah lavar take it done a full notch.

Rock is E-1 now.

[ben dover123]

pagetop
Answer this RQS please before reading:

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

4. How active will you be in this game?

what a time to return! we're back at the RQS again?

I think the only one I didnt answer yet is 4. Hopefully reasonably active for the next 2 weeks, although I'm in too many games lol

No, there was 3 replacements when you were gone. RQS is good for learning new info from new players, especially when we need it quite quickly now.

So, I assume you are rereading, right? I want to hear your clidd take, but don't be rushed to post it.

[ben dover123]

I don't like how the Rock wagon was constructed so fast, more specifically I'm not sure why Lavar would E-1 Rock. That's a really scummy vote, not to mention that he barely had any evidence to go alongside said vote. I'm sure he could see Rock was at E-2 in the last votecount, and so Lavar's vote doesn't quite hit me in the right way...

[Lunar Martian]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

[ben dover123]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

[Battle Mage]

early interaction on Page 2-3 between Ben and Clidd (which I think is where I left off) has me thinking Ben is solid town and Clidd is a good bet for scum.

Here's why:

Idk if I should post my meta here, maybe you will expect something from me that I won't be able to deliver.

This is an awkward sentence. Scum has more motivation to not post their meta then town does. Additionally, you have got the idea of meta wrong, which is surprising noting the fact that you started playing almost a year ago.

VOTE: clidd

I can understand this take, and it shows a solving mindset - interrogating the data in front of him.

Hum, I feel like my sentences are not so fluent. I need to readjust to the language.

self-conscious and defensive.

Btw, I have a light townlean in your slot. If you want to check my meta, you can access it on my profile.

If you have difficulty finding my finished scums games, you can search for ''mafia pt''.

"Btw I have a light townlean in your slot" reads as a slightly awkward inducement to get Ben to stop putting pressure on him.

I'm not native to english, so I don't think you will find reads in the way I type, sorry.

Ah, I changed my mind. I will help you, give me a minute.

changed his mind? about being helpful? but why?

Towngames:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Scumgames:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I'm not sure posting 6 links with no commentary or context is actually too helpful (will people read all the links, and if they do, will they draw reasonable conclusions?). However, it is high effort, which I think accords better with scum than town here.

I'm not native to english, so I don't think you will find reads in the way I type, sorry.

Ah, I changed my mind. I will help you, give me a minute.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet. This is where meta comes into play. If I check all of your games and you have the same behavoiur and weird wording around your

sentences, I will pass over this sentence since that proves your awkward sentences are not a first time behaviour.

sensible and duly suspicious newb-town approach. This one is town.

Just a tip: don't say when you're using meta until you have all the data. People will try to avoid their tells if you say that you're looking their past games.

This is part of the surprise trigger.

this is actually a valid point - although it's more information to the newbies than anything which suggests scumhunting.

I'll take a break, waiting for others (trendal mainly) to post.

This doesn't vibe with me. Normally people will drop in a "take a break" when they are finding a game stressful. Nothing had really happened to this point and Clidd was focussing much more on defending himself from minimal pressure from Ben than actually furthering any of his own reads. Suggests someone feeling the pressure and needing to give an excuse for not posting for a bit.

Ok. Well, I think I can understand most of your reasons, however I'm not ready to retract my vote and my suspicious yet.

I still think you're towny in your posts.

It continues a while later. Ben still scumreading Clidd a bit, and Clidd buddying him. There's no other reason Clidd would make post 49, other than to try and pocket Ben.

Btw, I like your style, Ben.

You fit the leader type.

And some more of the game, only this is more personal flattery. It's a hard-sell, but in fairness it seems to work...

Btw, I like your style, Ben.

You fit the leader type.

Thanks!

In any case, highly unlikely this interaction came from scumpartners, so that's 1 pairing ruled out.

[Battle Mage]

Where I'm from, artofproblemsolving.com, we use RQS since our profiles do not reveal gender and specific questions like that. Here are some questions I'd like to ask everyone.

1. Is this your first game or do you have past games? Can you link me your best scum and town games if you do have past games? In other words, what games do you want me to metadive you?

2. Favorite role? Favorite alignment?

3. How good are you at scumhunting (self-evaluation), from 1-10?

My answers:

1. I have finished 1 ongoing game, but it is not completed.

2. I like being a Vanilla Townie.

3. Probably a 3-4. I can catch basic tells but nothing extremely complex.

Hmmm...
1. This is my first game of forum mafia.I have never played mafia on forums before.

2. I think mafia goon perhaps.

3. No idea.I still have to see.

townlean for a newbie saying they prefer to be mafia.

Yeah, it's my first game here.

Here is a question I'd like to ask everyone:
If someone was one vote away from being lynched, and there were people who wanted to continue discussion but you were convinced they were scum, would you hammer them?

A great question. It depends - I am generally a "hammer first, ask questions later" sorta guy.

[Lunar Martian]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

[Battle Mage]

I'm getting pocket by my sr...

Clidd referring to pocketting, shortly after attempting to pocket Ben, suggesting further that this was intentional.

You're talking in way that I don't think scum!you would talk.

Clidd dangling a carrot of a townread to Trendall to persuade him to move his vote - same as with Ben on previous page.

again I don't feel Clidd-Trendall here.

[Battle Mage]

I don't understand why Battle Mage is so inactive, is it part of his playstyle?

I just accidentally ended up in too many games and then was VLA for the weekend and couldn't keep up with them all. Definitely not my playstyle!

Also, looking back I don't understand this either.

Ben, how would you like us to proceed then, if nobody votes?

also VOTE: Ben

a bit defensive and passive - not good townie traits

All I was talking about is why I don't vote in RVS. I can see where the overdefensiveness comes in but the passive part?

not voting is passive, voting is active. voting in RVS can get people wagonning you, and so being active carries a risk. not voting is a good way for scum to stay out of trouble.

[ben dover123]

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

You still lack context. I have a very, very solid reason to keep my vote, and I want Rockhopper to respond soon. I want Lavar to take his vote back right now, it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

I can reference the post if you want, Rock is giving me hard core scum pings.

[ben dover123]

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

This is my case against him. He made some actions that have hard pinged me, even worse than clidd. The worst part about it is that Rock didn't vote me even though his reasoning behind giving me a scumlean was TMI, which

compared to his reasons to vote Lavar, it is a horrific that he didn't vote me there and ended up just giving me a scumlean. Not to mention the burden of proof fallacy and him admitting to purposely creating a really bad

readlist. The problem is that he is going along with this attack, not even bothering to defend it like clidd. I'm getting bad pings from this kind of behavior.

[Battle Mage]

So what I have noticed most in this game is that Ben talks a lot, but in a lot of what he says there doesn't seem to be much substance. There was a post where he explained why he doesn't like to do RVS because it takes energy, but that caused him to expend much more energy in an self-envoked explanation. Another thing I've noticed about him is that he likes to use the words townie and conservative. I also think that his asking for reads this early on is strange, when only 3 people have more than 3 posts, while not giving his own reads in the post. I also thought his pressure of clidd, on not immediately posting his meta and then harping about clidd's language he used was strange. I did not feel this way about clidd's use of words. I thought that, for the most part, that what he said about not immediately posting the meta was a joke.

That being said, I don't really like how clidd eventually caved under pressure about the meta. Nothing else he has said has really stood out though.

I'll comment on Trendall later, right now I need to get some sleep.

Everyone else hasn't posted very much, myself included.

If someone was one vote away from being lynched, and there were people who wanted to continue discussion but you were convinced they were scum, would you hammer them?

I wouldn't, especially if it was after day 1. There might be someone who has a good reason not to want the hammer to happen like maybe they know the person is not scum because they are a power role that has the result of proving it. I think discussion should have a decent chance before a quick hammer. I think this was a very good question to ask.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: ben dover123

I like this post - newbie keen to get stuck in and throw a bit of shade more likely town, and the takes are believable. Feel like we've got a good townblock forming.

I don't understand why that would raise the likelihood of my being mafia if it's the case that I don't make any real conscious distinction between SEs and the other players.

Well, it does for me. Let me explain it like this: I usually think scum SE's don't try to eliminate other SE's D1 because they are more competent then say, the LHF's of the game. However, since you admitted that you could possibly push a SE for elimination D1, now your chances of being scum and pushing a clidd elimination are possible.

not all SEs are created equal though.

I don't suspect Ben at all, unless he's openwolfing and I'm confbias because he's new to the site, but I don't think so.

Clidd can you confirm what you mean by "openwolfing" here? Doesn't seem to be the definition I know.

To clarify the topic 'SE', idk about everyone, but I don't think SEs take games in the newbie queue very seriously here, in the sense that we are not going to play the best we can. We are often looking for a more chill game, trying to test new styles/approaches, or we are trying to adapt to the site after a long period away (my case).

Of course, if players have any questions about the game, setup or terms used, I believe that no SE will refuse to help, but keep in mind that each one needs to absorb things on their own and find the playstyle that works better for them.

I take newbie games seriously - they are probably the most fun for me because people are generally nice to each other and it's a good opportunity to teach and also meet new people. Plus in theory they should be more winnable, and my win rate needs all the help it can get!

[Battle Mage]

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

yeah I dig it - I ended up in too many games towards the end of last week and then was VLA over the weekend without enough time to keep up with them all.

Trendall: are you going to answer my question or do you have to be coached? You've played plenty of games here already.

yep Chumbo probably town.

[Battle Mage]

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I don't think 37 hours is enough for a prod in a newbie game. I just accidentally ended up in too many games and real life got busy.

I'll be back in the mix well before deadline.

This is understandable. 2040 just ended, and wow that game was hella tense.

my early takes are Clidd is scum, and Ben is town. full catch up and assessment to follow after the weekend.

Ok, I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the clidd take

haha well I hope it was worth the wait! And you read newbie 2040? What did you think?

[ben dover123]

I haven't read all of it, but I saw you self-hammered. Unfortunate.

Well, this game is a fresh page for you, I'd say. I can't wait to finally interact and work with you. Then, at long last, everyone will be active and we can start solving for real.

[Battle Mage]

I don't know how to read Chumbo yet, considering that his pov is nothing special and can be attributed to both alignments.

I was more interested in NotAJumbleOfNumbers' reaction to my vote, but I feel like I'm going to have to engage him to talk to me.

I don't think you'd left yourself much room for manouevre at this point, having townblocked Ben and Trendall?

my early takes are Clidd is scum, and Ben is town. full catch up and assessment to follow after the weekend.

Hum.

This is NAI coming from you, so I'm looking forward to see your reads.

what does this post even mean?

I'm sorry about my inactivity, I wasn't expecting the game to move as quickly as it has. And from my pov the game started wednesday night, so I didn't think missing 1 full day would be as detrimental as it has been.

I am going to do a full re-read tomorrow morning, but my preliminary reads are that Ben and Chumbo are the most likely town, based on Ben's proactiveness and well thought out reasoning, as well as his change of stance on Chumbo. My view on Chumbo is similar to his, I think he was genuine in his read of Ben. Trendall I could go either way on. clidd gives a a bit of a scumread, but this is entirely based on gut alone. Everyone else hasn't posted enough to get any kind of read on.

I will do my best to get back to anyone's questions tonight if they ask any, but with the weekend here I should be more active.

good initial reads, accord well with mine to this point.

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia.

And I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics by assuming that I "love" using meta (I never said I do, only that I used it in the past often), as well as ignoring the context of me being away from the site and the influence that would have in the way I'm playing.

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

this is "honestly" pretty weak though.

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

I'm not sure what to make of clidd yet, but I know that in his town games he basically obvtowns really hard, just a note to keep for later.

Wait woah there is a contradiction! clidd, explain yourself.

Ok, I'm rereading now. I can't believe I missed that.

I don't think there was a contradiction there - you can consider something to be a tell without it being a universally recognised tell.

[Battle Mage]

I haven't read all of it, but I saw you self-hammered. Unfortunate.

Well, this game is a fresh page for you, I'd say. I can't wait to finally interact and work with you. Then, at long last, everyone will be active and we can start solving for real.

I don't think I've ever self-hammered before, but I did it to protect my scumbuddy. I figured giving Jumble more opportunity to interact with me would have been a mistake and I didn't think Skitter would ever listen to me. And it worked, as my buddy went on to win!

[Battle Mage]

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

I'm not sure what to make of clidd yet, but I know that in his town games he basically obvtowns really hard, just a note to keep for later.

Wait woah there is a contradiction! clidd, explain yourself.

Ok, I'm rereading now. I can't believe I missed that.

People say when I'm town I usually obvtown, but this isn't a button that I can just turn on.

So idk if I'll eventually be obvtown to your perspective,

although I already have the firm feeling that you are town

.

Clidd at it again.

I am really confused by all these pages of arguments.I wasnt expecting so many pages in this short time.But clidds interaction with trendall slightly makes him look scum.Ben seems town based on his thoughtful reasonings.Trendall could be either.He doesnt read scum to me nor town.
Chumbo reads slightly town too.But I cant say anything about other players.I am surprised by the hardness of catching scum but I think that it will become easier after night 1(perhaps).If I had to vote now I would vote clidd but I am going to refrain from that as there are still many days to deadline.Sorry I cant provide anything new but I am still a newbie.

good stuff, townlean.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I'm not sure why this was received badly? Later on he showed that he could at least give a one-line summary while on VLA, so that just begs the question of why he didn't just say it in his VLA post.

weak shade.

I am really confused by all these pages of arguments.I wasnt expecting so many pages in this short time.But clidds interaction with trendall slightly makes him look scum.Ben seems town based on his thoughtful reasonings.Trendall could be either.He doesnt read scum to me nor town.
Chumbo reads slightly town too.But I cant say anything about other players.I am surprised by the hardness of catching scum but I think that it will become easier after night 1(perhaps).If I had to vote now I would vote clidd but I am going to refrain from that as there are still many days to deadline.Sorry I cant provide anything new but I am still a newbie.

Which Ben post in particular do you think best illustrates the town feel you had of him?

By extension, you said that Ben is town due to thoughtful reasoning, but I also provided some in the posts where I explain my reads on Ben/Trendall. S

houldn't I be town in your view too?

Clidd again focussing on his top priority of trying to be townread by everyone.

Ok I'm pausing for the night at post 210 - will continue tomorrow night.

In the meantime, VOTE: Clidd obviously.

[clidd]

Is Rock going to defend himself? he seems to be disseminating scummy vibes on purpose.

Honestly, I expected more people persuaded to vote on me than him.



By the way, hello BM, my old friend.

It is a hemorrhagic pleasure to see you again, although our current scenario is conflicting.

[Trendall]

I have a very, very solid reason to keep my vote.

No you don't.

it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

No it isn't it's literally the same vote that you are making.

[ben dover123]

I have a very, very solid reason to keep my vote.

No you don't.

it is a absolutely terrible vote compared to everyone else's.

No it isn't it's literally the same vote that you are making.

I sure do. I need Rock to at least explain himself because his actions are just "What?!?!?!?!" looking from a town motivation.

No, it is not the same vote. Let me bring up the evidence:

My reasoning:

Hm. Maybe I did but...

I'm almost convinced Rock is the other scum alongside clidd now, Rock SR'ed me for TMI, an absurdly strong tell, a tell way stronger than anything Rock had against Lavar, and yet all he says is:

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

No vote, no nothing. His scumlean came nearly

7 hours

before he explained the reasoning, which I assume either he constructed a case against me in those 7 hours because he needed to push me, or his reasoning for the scumlean was already set as TMI. If he constructed a case on the go, that just screams scum trying to progress the push of my miselimination and if he already had his scumlean set as "I had TMI", then him not voting there is indecisive scum who doesn't want to push me here.

He literally admitted to purposely creating a f***** up readlist, which is beyond sub-optimal play for town.

He says "bad reads =/= scummy" in a vacuum? He should know this is blatantly false (from plain experience), as bad reads are not a direct scumtell.

He is using burden of proof to deflect the fact that he is making bad reads.

(burden of proof is a logical fallacy, when used to deflect the person that is using this fallacy is trying to divert attention from one aspect of their argument)

Hm. Is it me or is it just so coincidental that when I start using emotions to pressure him, he leaves the chat? I must say....

VOTE: Rockhopper

clidd's meta case is a good case but this is just actually terrible coming from Rock.

This is Lavar's vote:

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

If you cannot see the difference here, you are officially blind. Lavar's vote has really bad reasons and even worse, it puts Rock at E-1. I definitely don't like this look coming from Lavar.

I don't like how Trendall cannot see the difference between these two votes when there is obviously one. Plus the fact that multiple wagons are cropping up. Right now, right below Rock's wagon, clidd's wagon is back in the game and mine is too. We definitely need to have a good consensus wagon soon, deadline is approaching.