Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[clidd]

Idk if I should post my meta here, maybe you will expect something from me that I won't be able to deliver.

Looking back, maybe my advice on page 1 could have avoided a lot of headaches in this game.

[ben dover123]

Ben, I have an important question.

Ah, nvm. I'll let you think more.

No, no I'm open rn.

Go ahead. I'm still waiting for Rock to answer anyways.

[Rockhopper]

What does 1, 2, 3, and 4 answer? I'm not sure if I'm lining each attack up with the right defense.

1. Even so, this doesn't answer much. Why didn't you just vote me when you announced I was a scumlean, when the reasoning you had was TMI?

2. Lets settle this. Originally when you posted your readlist, I thought that it was just a bad readlist and so bad reads =/= scummy and it wasn't AI to me. I thought likely you were still reading through the whole game. But then you announced later that your intentions with that readlist was to purposely make it bad, therefore I have no clue why you would do this from a towny motivation. So bad reads =/= scummy, but purposely making bad reads? That's just straight up wacky.

3. Wait, what does this answer?

4. Burden of proof is not AI in general, but when used to deflect it is scummy. Imagine this:

Person A: I believe Person B is scum for these reasons: <insert reasons here>

Person C: But why is Person B not town?

That is like a very simple form of burden of proof. Obviously, in this scenario it's way easier to see that Person C is likely scum with Person B, and this basically is what you were doing on a much more basic level and with different reasoning. Asking "Why not?" is you knowing that purposely making a bad readlist is the most bullcrap thing you could do, and you just want to disprove that fact by using burden of proof.

1) Because I still thought Pragdoid was worse. I thought TMI was probably the reason for why you wouldn't have connected the dots. Don't you think it's scummy if someone misses a simple deduction?
2) That's in line with my thoughts on Pragdoid's contradiction case. You shouldn't have automatically equated 'bad reads' with 'not AI'.
3) Fine, screw bop. I don't think it's scummy to post a wrong read on purpose.
4) This was regarding my absence when you got emotional.

[clidd]

@Ben Look, it isn't even a question.

I just need you to relax a bit and think about what I'll say, ok?

pedit: ah, you again.

[ben dover123]

What does 1, 2, 3, and 4 answer? I'm not sure if I'm lining each attack up with the right defense.

1. Even so, this doesn't answer much. Why didn't you just vote me when you announced I was a scumlean, when the reasoning you had was TMI?

2. Lets settle this. Originally when you posted your readlist, I thought that it was just a bad readlist and so bad reads =/= scummy and it wasn't AI to me. I thought likely you were still reading through the whole game. But then you announced later that your intentions with that readlist was to purposely make it bad, therefore I have no clue why you would do this from a towny motivation. So bad reads =/= scummy, but purposely making bad reads? That's just straight up wacky.

3. Wait, what does this answer?

4. Burden of proof is not AI in general, but when used to deflect it is scummy. Imagine this:

Person A: I believe Person B is scum for these reasons: <insert reasons here>

Person C: But why is Person B not town?

That is like a very simple form of burden of proof. Obviously, in this scenario it's way easier to see that Person C is likely scum with Person B, and this basically is what you were doing on a much more basic level and with different reasoning. Asking "Why not?" is you knowing that purposely making a bad readlist is the most bullcrap thing you could do, and you just want to disprove that fact by using burden of proof.

1) Because I still thought Pragdoid was worse. I thought TMI was probably the reason for why you wouldn't have connected the dots. Don't you think it's scummy if someone misses a simple deduction?
2) That's in line with my thoughts on Pragdoid's contradiction case. You shouldn't have automatically equated 'bad reads' with 'not AI'.
3) Fine, screw bop. I don't think it's scummy to post a wrong read on purpose.
4) This was regarding my absence when you got emotional.

1. What. How is Pragdoid worse then what you thought I was then. TMI is stronger and then anything you had against Pragdoid for a mile.

2. Whoops. Also, I didn't automatically equate bad reads with not AI. I said you making bad reads then wasn't AI for me because you probably were still collecting thoughts from the whole game. Difference, much?

3. :thonk: Uh...I'd like you to say that statement again to yourself.

4. Oh. That wasn't really AI, but scum don't like to get in a emotional battle since they know their emotions probably won't match with the townie's true emotions.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

I'm a town PR and my role is Doctor.

I need you to actually burn your scumcase on me and forget every reason that says that I'm scum, so we can work together.

[ben dover123]

@Ben Look, it isn't even a question.

I just need you to relax a bit and think about what I'll say, ok?

pedit: ah, you again.

Got it.

I mean, I'm not even 75 percent sure I can trust what you say, word by word but I'll still listen with all ears.

Ah, I'm thinking too hard about this crap.

Pedit: WTF IS THIS

Sorry, my bad. Manners went out of the window. But this is not the greatest time to claim...

[clidd]

Ok, I'll give some time to everyone to read this ^ so I can just forget about every line that I have to answer on my head.

[LavarManos]

lol

[Rockhopper]

What does 1, 2, 3, and 4 answer? I'm not sure if I'm lining each attack up with the right defense.

1. Even so, this doesn't answer much. Why didn't you just vote me when you announced I was a scumlean, when the reasoning you had was TMI?

2. Lets settle this. Originally when you posted your readlist, I thought that it was just a bad readlist and so bad reads =/= scummy and it wasn't AI to me. I thought likely you were still reading through the whole game. But then you announced later that your intentions with that readlist was to purposely make it bad, therefore I have no clue why you would do this from a towny motivation. So bad reads =/= scummy, but purposely making bad reads? That's just straight up wacky.

3. Wait, what does this answer?

4. Burden of proof is not AI in general, but when used to deflect it is scummy. Imagine this:

Person A: I believe Person B is scum for these reasons: <insert reasons here>

Person C: But why is Person B not town?

That is like a very simple form of burden of proof. Obviously, in this scenario it's way easier to see that Person C is likely scum with Person B, and this basically is what you were doing on a much more basic level and with different reasoning. Asking "Why not?" is you knowing that purposely making a bad readlist is the most bullcrap thing you could do, and you just want to disprove that fact by using burden of proof.

1) Because I still thought Pragdoid was worse. I thought TMI was probably the reason for why you wouldn't have connected the dots. Don't you think it's scummy if someone misses a simple deduction?
2) That's in line with my thoughts on Pragdoid's contradiction case. You shouldn't have automatically equated 'bad reads' with 'not AI'.
3) Fine, screw bop. I don't think it's scummy to post a wrong read on purpose.
4) This was regarding my absence when you got emotional.

1. What. How is Pragdoid worse then what you thought I was then. TMI is stronger and then anything you had against Pragdoid for a mile.

2. Whoops. Also, I didn't automatically equate bad reads with not AI. I said you making bad reads then wasn't AI for me because you probably were still collecting thoughts from the whole game. Difference, much?

3. :thonk: Uh...I'd like you to say that statement again to yourself.

4. Oh. That wasn't really AI, but scum don't like to get in a emotional battle since they know their emotions probably won't match with the townie's true emotions.

1) It could have just been you not paying attention.
2) Doesn't matter. My read on Pragdoid was all that was necessary.
3) ..I don't think it is

[ben dover123]

Alright, can we pause the argument real quick.

This is like 75% coming from town clidd, since there are so many CC's that could go wrong with doctor. But, if you are a PR that is not cop or tracker, you should probably claim now, because that completely nullifies clidd's claim. Otherwise, everyone, including vt's and town cop or tracker stay silent.

This limits the possible scum, so I'm going to muse over this a bit and be back later.

[clidd]

lol

[Rockhopper]

Spoiler:

LoneMarkhor
Trendall
ben dover
Lunar
Battle Mage
LavarManos
Chumbo

[ben dover123]

Where is clidd on there?

[Rockhopper]

He isn't an elim choice until and unless there's a CC so I'm just treating him as conftown for now.

[ben dover123]

He isn't an elim choice until and unless there's a CC so I'm just treating him as conftown for now.

Cool, that was what I was thinking.

The stakes are high for scum clidd if this is a gambit, the only scenario where there is a town cop/tracker but no town doctor is the Cop 9 setup, so if clidd doesn't get CC'ed here he is basically 90% cleared. It's such a risky gambit for scum clidd as well, there are so many counterclaims to doctor here, and there is a better role to gambit off of.

This would also explain why he is not following his regular vt playstyle, which I was wondering why he wasn't following his successful playstyle.

So, I'm just going to recollect my reads, will post them soon. This narrows down scumteam quite a lot though, I want to see who can be scum here.

[Trendall]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

[ben dover123]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

Wait, what?

Spoiler: Reads

ben dover123

clidd

Trendall

Chumbo

LavarManos

Battle Mage

Lunar Martian

Rockhopper

My reads are a mess right now after this claim. Hopefully we can clean this mess up soon.

[ben dover123]

1) It could have just been you not paying attention.
2) Doesn't matter. My read on Pragdoid was all that was necessary.
3) ..I don't think it is

This argument is doing no good to anyone, so this is the last time I will argue over these points.

1. Let me see, your reasons for voting Pragdoid/LavarManos are:

- Consensus reads
- Attacking his SR for contradiction
- Posts do not come from town (?)

Uh...TMI as a scumtell crushes all of these reasons. I have been paying attention to your SR on Pragdoid/Lavar and I disagree with these reasons.

2. Wait, what? I'm not quite understanding this, but what I can say is your attack on Pragdoid is much, much weaker than TMI in any scenario.

3. I don't think I can change your mind about this, but I'll try one more time:

Purposely making bad reads is faking reads, and that is just not ok from a towny perspective. You just never, ever, fake reads. If you have good reads, share them. Then, people can interact with your true reads rather than faking all of your reads and making a garbage readlist.

Sigh. Hopefully this is the end to this argument. It's been going on for too long and has done nothing for town. Just pretend my vote is on Rock rn, I don't want to put him in hammer range again. I still don't understand his defense against my attack, but I want someone else to check it for themselves, as this argument has become increasingly confbiased for both sides. smh.

[clidd]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

Do you think I would take these odds?

[Trendall]

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

[ben dover123]

Mafia know what their roles are, so if he knows that there are just two mafia goons then he has a one in three chance of getting away with it and a two in three chance of outing some other power role.

Do you think I would take these odds?

Probably not but:

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

[clidd]

I can't work out the town motivation for claiming so early?

Maybe being top 2 SR?

[clidd]

Maybe a big case against me?

[Trendall]

Yeah so as mafia you sacrifice yourself to out a pr.