Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[ben dover123]

Clidd, I made Jumble's ISO:

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers ISO

1st post is just answers to my RQS.

I don't think "conserve your energy" really applies here? It's only day 1, and there are nights to help you recharge.

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent.

How competent, exactly? Are there any further restrictions on becoming an SE? Are you an SE there too?

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I...what? Why can't we just let off-topic chats be off-topic chats?

Only focusing on me.

Okay, now this is something I have an issue with. You can't just assert everyone can just look like they're a townie easily, without a problem. I'll use myself as an example here: I have trouble at times

just posting in the thread

, let alone looking "obvious town".

Also, I found a few questions for you that aren't really related to what I just said, but they seem fine to tack on:

In 15, you suddenly defend your choice of not voting in RVS unprompted. Why?

In 69, you said you were probably going to "recede your leadership and proactive role", but you're still posting as frequently as before. Why?

Decent questions but tbh it seems like a small nudge rather than a attempt to solve my alignment, like clidd said.

Quick update so I don't fall out of this game entirely: Ben is slightly leaning scum to me, Chumbo seems town, Clidd is basically null right now, Trendall also seems town, everyone else hasn't posted enough to really read on.

This was a controversial readlist at the time. I'm not sure what his reason to SR me was.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I'm not sure why this was received badly? Later on he showed that he could at least give a one-line summary while on VLA, so that just begs the question of why he didn't just say it in his VLA post.

This was pointed out by nearly everybody, and it's kind of a weak push towards Chumbo.

Chumbo is most likely to be mafia here, as they're complaining about ben trying to 'look town' while at the same time complaining about 'this guy isn't posting enough!' and 'this guy hasn't answered my question!' (please nobody interpret this post as an answer to Chumbo's question). Classic mafia stuff - easy, obvious, and irrelevant things to pick up and complain about.

I don't think

not posting enough

is an irrelevant thing, though. In addition, the two sides of "not enough posts" and "trying too hard to look town" aren't necessarily opposites to each other. You can have a lower post count than wanted and still look LAMISTy.

Uh...not really a helpful or relevant post.

Posts 109 and 110 dripped me in the sense that he seemed withdrawn and not very committed to solving Ben's alignment, something I can theorize more in a newbie!Scum scenario.

Withdrawn? Yes. But that's just been a problem I've had in general with mafia. Everything's so hard to understand as someone who doesn't know much about the game and it can be tempting to just hold your thoughts to yourself so you don't look bad. And I think 110 is still a good question to ask.

Why does it feel like Jumble was overusing this defense of "I just can't post my thoughts"? Other than that not much to comment about this post. 110 was a question asking "Why can't I have off-topic chats", which doesn't classify as a good question in my books, but that is just my opinion about 110.

[Trendall]

It's not 'bias' it's just like...my read, that's what my read is. Regarding me 'getting too heated' which isn't happening, I refer you back to post #590. It's not me, it's just you projecting that onto me.

[clidd]

I finished one too:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I don't intend to analyze post by post, but I noticed two interesting points in his progression:

1- He asks a lot of questions and does not process the answers, nor does he create reads with the information obtained. It is noted in the formulation of some questions, as in posts 109 and 194. The character of these questions is also doubtful.

2- Observations seem empty, as if they seemed to be giving an opinion, but in reality he was not getting anywhere, as in posts 195, 196 and 197. Post 197, in particular, demonstrates him entering a more self-affirming instance, in the sense that he feels the need to demonstrate that he really has a deficiency in the cognitive process of understanding and that his question had weight, implying that he would have to justify himself to me (and that does not make sense from a point of view town!Jumble, since he wouldn’t know my alignment and therefore wouldn’t feel obliged to offer me a satisfaction).

By extension, there is this scumgame of his that he published in the topic:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Which by the way demonstrates a behavior very similar to here, with inconclusive questions, instances of self-affirmation and a little devaluation of one's own ability (but the latter must be a trait of low self-esteem, not being AI).

Another small observation, which is quite subjective, but useful to mention is the way he illustrated his scumgame and towngame on the first post:

I think I've only finished one scum game so far, and it was this one. I didn't like my play there at all, but by default it's my best. As for town, I'd have to pick Open 793: Trust Fall. Yeah, it's a hydra, but all of my solo games weren't that good, honestly.

He refers to the scumgame as "this one", indicating cognitive distance from the item covered, while the towngame is inserted completely. In this context, I theorize that he unconsciously wanted to be associated with the town game (bigger, flashy text) and distance himself from the scumgame (smaller, unattractive text), and this is one of the concepts of something called "maintenance of appearance", which is one of the tactics that liars use to convey that they are linked to something positive, while trying to demonstrate that they are not associated with negative things. Of course, it is a bit of an overthink, but this is a very specific tell and difficult to identify (and it can also be easily mistaken if he was just too lazy to type both games in the same way) but added to the impressions I got from his ISO, end up having some weight.

Objectively speaking, I believe there is a greater chance that Jumble is more scum than town, so Lunar ends up inheriting that scummy impression.

[ben dover123]

It's not 'bias' it's just like...my read, that's what my read is. Regarding me 'getting too heated' which isn't happening, I refer you back to post #590. It's not me, it's just you projecting that onto me.

Maybe bias is an overstatement, but you definitely need to take it down a whole notch. The reasons for elimming clidd at this point match a PL, and as you can see people are starting to not follow along with you because of how awful your attitude is getting over a clidd elim. You getting heated has no relation to post #590, and I am not projecting that onto you, it's just how you feel over a clidd elimination now. The whole clidd elim is getting out of hand, and if you can't see this I advise you take one step back.

[clidd]

I think we both agree that Jumble is more likely scum than town.

[ben dover123]

I finished one too:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I don't intend to analyze post by post, but I noticed two interesting points in his progression:

1- He asks a lot of questions and does not process the answers, nor does he create reads with the information obtained. It is noted in the formulation of some questions, as in posts 109 and 194. The character of these questions is also doubtful.

2- Observations seem empty, as if they seemed to be giving an opinion, but in reality he was not getting anywhere, as in posts 195, 196 and 197. Post 197, in particular, demonstrates him entering a more self-affirming instance, in the sense that he feels the need to demonstrate that he really has a deficiency in the cognitive process of understanding and that his question had weight, implying that he would have to justify himself to me (and that does not make sense from a point of view town!Jumble, since he wouldn’t know my alignment and therefore wouldn’t feel obliged to offer me a satisfaction).

By extension, there is this scumgame of his that he published in the topic:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Which by the way demonstrates a behavior very similar to here, with inconclusive questions, instances of self-affirmation and a little devaluation of one's own ability (but the latter must be a trait of low self-esteem, not being AI).

Another small observation, which is quite subjective, but useful to mention is the way he illustrated his scumgame and towngame on the first post:

I think I've only finished one scum game so far, and it was this one. I didn't like my play there at all, but by default it's my best. As for town, I'd have to pick Open 793: Trust Fall. Yeah, it's a hydra, but all of my solo games weren't that good, honestly.

He refers to the scumgame as "this one", indicating cognitive distance from the item covered, while the towngame is inserted completely. In this context, I theorize that he unconsciously wanted to be associated with the town game (bigger, flashy text) and distance himself from the scumgame (smaller, unattractive text), and this is one of the concepts of something called "maintenance of appearance", which is one of the tactics that liars use to convey that they are linked to something positive, while trying to demonstrate that they are not associated with negative things. Of course, it is a bit of an overthink, but this is a very specific tell and difficult to identify (and it can also be easily mistaken if he was just too lazy to type both games in the same way) but added to the impressions I got from his ISO, end up having some weight.

Objectively speaking, I believe there is a greater chance that Jumble is more scum than town, so Lunar ends up inheriting that scummy impression.

Nice. These points are good, I see you have made some meta analysis over Jumble as well.

I think we both agree that Jumble is more likely scum than town.

Yeah. With that in mind, I say we should make a ISO on Lunar as well to confirm our suspicions. If Lunar did inherit Jumble's scum slot, it will be visible to some degree.

[Trendall]

you definitely need to take it down a whole notch.

I didn't do anything heated or unreasonable, but if it's your view that I did (lol), then I have 'taken it down a notch' because I just said like...these are who I think the mafia are and you guys can take it from there. You just can't seem to accept that clidd is the person that I think is mafia, so of course I'm going to want him to be eliminated. clidd is just the obvious elimination target at this point, even he said himself he's been acting like mafia all game, so it's not unreasonable for me to have that read.

[ben dover123]

you definitely need to take it down a whole notch.

I didn't do anything heated or unreasonable, but if it's your view that I did (lol), then I have 'taken it down a notch' because I just said like...these are who I think the mafia are and you guys can take it from there. You just can't seem to accept that clidd is the person that I think is mafia, so of course I'm going to want him to be eliminated. clidd is just the obvious elimination target at this point, even he said himself he's been acting like mafia all game, so it's not unreasonable for me to have that read.

I'm not saying that a clidd elim is unreasonable, I'm saying that you obviously need to just cool off a bit over your clidd read and elimination. I can take clidd being mafia, but I believe now that clidd should be left alive for D2 so we have some order. BM + 4 newbies + me + Rock is just a wacky Day 2. "clidd is just the obvious elimination target at this point" is an example that you need to start looking at the side where it is possible that clidd is town.

[Trendall]

[quote="In post 882, ben dover123"I'm saying that you obviously need to just cool off a bit over your clidd read[/quote]

Again you're just projecting your own mental state onto me.

[Trendall]

Noooo I got my quote tags wrong.

[clidd]

Let's just move on. Trendall can still work with Ben, while scumreading me, as long as he stills scumreading outside. See this as a "hunting for Clidd's partner" if you can't trust me.

I'll take a look at Lunar.

[Trendall]

is an example that you need to start looking at the side where it is possible that clidd is town.

I already did that and it's just weak compared to the side where he's mafia, what makes you think I haven't thought about this?

[ben dover123]

[quote="In post 882, ben dover123"I'm saying that you obviously need to just cool off a bit over your clidd read

Again you're just projecting your own mental state onto me.[/quote]

No, that's actually how I feel about you and your clidd read. My mental state has nothing to do about how I feel about you.

If you are just going to keep on steamrolling through a clidd elimination, then I'll just quit here. I don't want to spend my time arguing over something that doesn't help the game at all, like with me and Rock.

[ben dover123]

Let's just move on. Trendall can still work with Ben, while scumreading me, as long as he stills scumreading outside. See this as a "hunting for Clidd's partner" if you can't trust me.

I'll take a look at Lunar.

Yeah, exactly my point.

I'm going to construct a Lunar ISO too. I think in general Lunar has been towny, but I'm not 100% sure about that read yet.

[Trendall]

Trendall can still work with Ben

Again if he's going to accuse me of like 'needing to cool down' or something when I can't work out what I have done that would suggest that I am remotely excited about this game other than being slightly embarrassed about claiming when I shouldn't have (which I'd never be too embarrassed about because it's just like...an extremely on brand mistake for me to make, I'm just scatty like that), then it's just disorienting and I can't be bothered lol

[Trendall]

then I'll just quit here.

So again, it's definitely not that you're projecting your own uncooledoffness onto me and actually it's me who needs to cool off here right?

[Trendall]

If you are just going to keep on steamrolling through a clidd elimination

Plus I already said I wasn't going to do this and I was gonna let you guys figure it out so like...what have I even done here?

[ben dover123]

Trendall can still work with Ben

Again if he's going to accuse me of like 'needing to cool down' or something when I can't work out what I have done that would suggest that I am remotely excited about this game other than being slightly embarrassed about claiming when I shouldn't have (which I'd never be too embarrassed about because it's just like...an extremely on brand mistake for me to make, I'm just scatty like that), then it's just disorienting and I can't be bothered lol

No, I'm fine with ending this argument here. I won't nag you over being too crazy for a clidd elimination and stuff like that.

then I'll just quit here.

So again, it's definitely not that you're projecting your own uncooledoffness onto me and actually it's me who needs to cool off here right?

Can we just end this argument already? This is not me projecting my mental state rn. "quitting" is me saying that I'll end this argument, not that I ragequit or something like that.

If you are just going to keep on steamrolling through a clidd elimination

Plus I already said I wasn't going to do this and I was gonna let you guys figure it out so like...what have I even done here?

You are still hard advocating a clidd elim over anything that anyone else says, that's what I meant.

[Trendall]

You are still hard advocating a clidd elim over anything that anyone else says, that's what I meant.

Because he's my top read for mafia, of course. What do you want me to do, make arguments against the person I think is sixth most likely to be mafia instead?

[ben dover123]

You are still hard advocating a clidd elim over anything that anyone else says, that's what I meant.

Because he's my top read for mafia, of course. What do you want me to do, make arguments against the person I think is sixth most likely to be mafia instead?

Sigh...why do you have to keep on bringing this argument up. Just stop. We don't need to argue over this any longer.

Anyways, to answer your question here, you could start looking at other possible scumteams with people not named clidd.

[Trendall]

But I think clidd is mafia so why would I do that?

[Trendall]

Like why would I waste time constructing arguments that I don't believe in myself?

[ben dover123]

But I think clidd is mafia so why would I do that?

I said stop. This is the last time I answer anything related to this argument.

Maybe because you could experiment with other solves, maybe because you are afraid that you are completely wrong here?

Like why would I waste time constructing arguments that I don't believe in myself?

So you are 100% certain that clidd is mafia. Duly noted.

[Trendall]

No I'm not 100% certain, I can't think of a situation where I ever would be, and there's no way that that can be reasonably inferred from what I've said. I'm just confident enough that this would be my final choice for who to eliminate today. If ppl don't agree they can vote someone else and it's as simple as that. Some guy in an epicmafia graveyard made a comment about me once which I really liked - something along the lines of 'this is classic Trendall, he had the mafia figured out at the start of the day and now is just overthinking his way out of it'. At some point you have to reach a final decision rather than just allowing yourself to confuse yourself through information overload or analysis paralysis. I've reached that point and you're just not understanding it and instead are attributing it to me being like...not thinking about the game rationally or something.

I'm not remotely afraid of being wrong, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, it happens, why would I care?

[ben dover123]

No I'm not 100% certain, I can't think of a situation where I ever would be, and there's no way that that can be reasonably inferred from what I've said. I'm just confident enough that this would be my final choice for who to eliminate today. If ppl don't agree they can vote someone else and it's as simple as that. Some guy in an epicmafia graveyard made a comment about me once which I really liked - something along the lines of 'this is classic Trendall, he had the mafia figured out at the start of the day and now is just overthinking his way out of it'. At some point you have to reach a final decision rather than just allowing yourself to confuse yourself through information overload or analysis paralysis. I've reached that point and you're just not understanding it and instead are attributing it to me being like...not thinking about the game rationally or something.

I'm not remotely afraid of being wrong, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, it happens, why would I care?

God, space out your text please.

"instead are attributing it to me being like...not thinking about the game rationally or something" This isn't what I am attributing you with, I'm usually paranoid over my reads and I make backup scumteams just in case something fails along the way.

I believe it is best to consider every scenario in case something goes wrong along the way. Maybe you are that careless type that thinks "If something goes wrong, just forget about it and move on." It would definitely be
understandable, I'm just the type to be relatively paranoid over different cases.

Why am I still arguing over this