Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar Martian, I didn't see you addressing my analysis of your predecessor. I provided a reasoning that pointed to Jumble being scum, consequently, transmitting to you (which is the same slot).

What do you want me to say? That you're wrong? I can't justify the thoughts of my predecessor. All I can say is that my role PM says Vanilla Townie.

[ben dover123]

at least the SEs being town helps, and Ben being obvtown helps narrow the pool nicely. Should be solvable, but I'm going to do it properly. You may as well consider me a replace-in at this point with how little I've been here.

Sigh...I had to do it. This game would have spiraled out of hand if I hadn't become so proactive. We are definitely looking to solve with PoE D2, with the amount of villagers we have on our hands.

Pedit: So you accept that Jumble was also scummy?

[Battle Mage]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

[clidd]

Lunar Martian, I didn't see you addressing my analysis of your predecessor. I provided a reasoning that pointed to Jumble being scum, consequently, transmitting to you (which is the same slot).

What do you want me to say? That you're wrong? I can't justify the thoughts of my predecessor. All I can say is that my role PM says Vanilla Townie.

Dude, we all know that you're a scumbag.

You were listless most of the game, doing selective reading and occasional comments on specific points.

The only time you entered more than one line was now, that your slot is at E-1.

[ben dover123]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

Well, you sure lurked in a pretty obvious way, I'm not sure you would do it so obviously when there are people like clidd who know your meta.

[clidd]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

So you're saying that is NAI and that you're scum, right?

[Lunar Martian]

If you got voted to E-1 and people couldn't provide any reasoning but assumed that you were scum and were only looking for other scum based on their interactions with you you'd probably also get frustrated. You aren't engaging with me in good faith or making any effort to consider the possibility that you're wrong. If you can't engage in good faith with me, I have no reason to do so with you. It doesn't matter what I say, you've decided that I'm scum. So I'm just gonna say things that make me feel better about dying, which in this case means ridiculing you.

Um, we aren't assuming you are scum. There are reasons behind my accusation, you know. More than "Lunar is indecisive".

I'd get frustrated, but I'd definitely go and start pointing out the flaws behind the accusations, addressing each one, not:

Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad. No one is re-evaluating.
The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

[
It was the first time you mentioned it. Yesterday or the day before. You said you didn't like my read changing on you, but also admitted that you had made some very questionable posts.

And rather than assume me changing my mind is scummy you should ask me questions to try to uncover my true intentions. This is garbage play from you, tbh.

The only thing you fixed was adding in the possibility of "Scum would choose a read and stick to it".

I can't really engage with you in good faith because you are very sure that Lone is scum and so is BM, and the reasons you provided I just can't agree with. Maybe we can work something together, but the way you are rejecting the possibility that Lone is genuinely newbie town is not helping us get together in good faith.

I am thinking about the possibility where I am wrong, and it's likely there, but this is likely where we are going today and as Trendall said, don't overthink it. I'll reconsider everything D2 if I am wrong.

You aren't really re-evaluating. I'm not asking you to engage me in good faith on my scumreads. I'm asking you to engage in good faith on your scumread of me.

And clidd I think that the scum lie in: Lone, BM, Rock.
Eliminate me, you, Trendall, Chumbo, and ben as possibilities, and that's where you wind up. Lavar could be scum but I think it's somewhat less likely.

[Lunar Martian]

at least the SEs being town helps, and Ben being obvtown helps narrow the pool nicely. Should be solvable, but I'm going to do it properly. You may as well consider me a replace-in at this point with how little I've been here.

Sigh...I had to do it. This game would have spiraled out of hand if I hadn't become so proactive. We are definitely looking to solve with PoE D2, with the amount of villagers we have on our hands.

Pedit: So you accept that Jumble was also scummy?

To be honest I never read jumble's posts so I have no idea.

[clidd]

UNVOTE: Lunar Martian

Let me take a look at something.

[Battle Mage]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

So you're saying that is NAI and that you're scum, right?

nah i'm town dude. i'm saying there's a difference between lurking and literally not posting or reading or doing anything.

[ben dover123]

You aren't really re-evaluating. I'm not asking you to engage me in good faith on my scumreads. I'm asking you to engage in good faith on your scumread of me.

And clidd I think that the scum lie in: Lone, BM, Rock.
Eliminate me, you, Trendall, Chumbo, and ben as possibilities, and that's where you wind up. Lavar could be scum but I think it's somewhat less likely.

How do you want me to engage in good faith on my SR on you?

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar Martian, I didn't see you addressing my analysis of your predecessor. I provided a reasoning that pointed to Jumble being scum, consequently, transmitting to you (which is the same slot).

What do you want me to say? That you're wrong? I can't justify the thoughts of my predecessor. All I can say is that my role PM says Vanilla Townie.

Dude, we all know that you're a scumbag.

You were listless most of the game, doing selective reading and occasional comments on specific points.

The only time you entered more than one line was now, that your slot is at E-1.

I didn't read most of the game before I replaced in, but I've read everything since then.

[ben dover123]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

So you're saying that is NAI and that you're scum, right?

nah i'm town dude. i'm saying there's a difference between lurking and literally not posting or reading or doing anything.

This is true.

I didn't read most of the game before I replaced in, but I've read everything since then.

Then you still shouldn't be doing selective reading?

[Lunar Martian]

You aren't really re-evaluating. I'm not asking you to engage me in good faith on my scumreads. I'm asking you to engage in good faith on your scumread of me.

And clidd I think that the scum lie in: Lone, BM, Rock.
Eliminate me, you, Trendall, Chumbo, and ben as possibilities, and that's where you wind up. Lavar could be scum but I think it's somewhat less likely.

How do you want me to engage in good faith on my SR on you?

Well you could re-read with the assumption that I'm town and see if the things I say make sense. Currently you're reading with the assumption that I'm mafia and fitting everything I say to that narrative. You're connecting dots that don't exist, and I can't really defend myself.

You could also state your case on me in explicit terms, something I've asked everyone to do which no one has done.

[Lunar Martian]

Then you still shouldn't be doing selective reading?

What do you even mean by selective reading?

[ben dover123]

Then you still shouldn't be doing selective reading?

What do you even mean by selective reading?

Selective reading is what it sounds like: Only reading selected bits of the whole story.

Like only picking out certain quotes to judge your reads on, etc.

Well you could re-read with the assumption that I'm town and see if the things I say make sense. Currently you're reading with the assumption that I'm mafia and fitting everything I say to that narrative. You're connecting dots that don't exist, and I can't really defend myself.

You could also state your case on me in explicit terms, something I've asked everyone to do which no one has done.

Hm. Alright, I'll bring up my case again in a second.

[clidd]

And I'm pretty confident that you aren't all that smart.

me, trendall, clidd (you aren't half as smart as you think you are), ben dover (you are very overconfident and slip into confirmation bias very easily), Chumbo.

OK let me address it. This is a really dumb wagon. The case on me is pathetic, there's nothing for me to even defend. Ben you say my read on you changed a lot, but when you criticized me for that you even admitted that you had been scummy. There's one scum on my wagon and 4 dumb townies. Lone is almost certainly scum here.

Just kill me, then tomorrow when the cop has no result and the doctor is dead and you continue to self destruct with terrible reads I'll be laughing in the graveyard

Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad

The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum

I'm not salty that there's a wagon on me. I'm salty that the wagon on me is for shit reasons and no one is reconsidering. If I go down that's OK, but I'm gonna point out what fools you are while I still can.

In what world am I not presenting my reads? You need to pull your head out of your ass and read my posts

Hum.

Would Scum!Lunar really appeal to this?

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers ISO

1st post is just answers to my RQS.

I don't think "conserve your energy" really applies here? It's only day 1, and there are nights to help you recharge.

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent.

How competent, exactly? Are there any further restrictions on becoming an SE? Are you an SE there too?

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I...what? Why can't we just let off-topic chats be off-topic chats?

Only focusing on me.

Okay, now this is something I have an issue with. You can't just assert everyone can just look like they're a townie easily, without a problem. I'll use myself as an example here: I have trouble at times

just posting in the thread

, let alone looking "obvious town".

Also, I found a few questions for you that aren't really related to what I just said, but they seem fine to tack on:

In 15, you suddenly defend your choice of not voting in RVS unprompted. Why?

In 69, you said you were probably going to "recede your leadership and proactive role", but you're still posting as frequently as before. Why?

Decent questions but tbh it seems like a small nudge rather than a attempt to solve my alignment, like clidd said.

Quick update so I don't fall out of this game entirely: Ben is slightly leaning scum to me, Chumbo seems town, Clidd is basically null right now, Trendall also seems town, everyone else hasn't posted enough to really read on.

This was a controversial readlist at the time. I'm not sure what his reason to SR me was.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I'm not sure why this was received badly? Later on he showed that he could at least give a one-line summary while on VLA, so that just begs the question of why he didn't just say it in his VLA post.

This was pointed out by nearly everybody, and it's kind of a weak push towards Chumbo.

Chumbo is most likely to be mafia here, as they're complaining about ben trying to 'look town' while at the same time complaining about 'this guy isn't posting enough!' and 'this guy hasn't answered my question!' (please nobody interpret this post as an answer to Chumbo's question). Classic mafia stuff - easy, obvious, and irrelevant things to pick up and complain about.

I don't think

not posting enough

is an irrelevant thing, though. In addition, the two sides of "not enough posts" and "trying too hard to look town" aren't necessarily opposites to each other. You can have a lower post count than wanted and still look LAMISTy.

Uh...not really a helpful or relevant post.

Posts 109 and 110 dripped me in the sense that he seemed withdrawn and not very committed to solving Ben's alignment, something I can theorize more in a newbie!Scum scenario.

Withdrawn? Yes. But that's just been a problem I've had in general with mafia. Everything's so hard to understand as someone who doesn't know much about the game and it can be tempting to just hold your thoughts to yourself so you don't look bad. And I think 110 is still a good question to ask.

Why does it feel like Jumble was overusing this defense of "I just can't post my thoughts"? Other than that not much to comment about this post. 110 was a question asking "Why can't I have off-topic chats", which doesn't classify as a good question in my books, but that is just my opinion about 110.

This is clidd's ISO on Jumble, I support the points in here too.

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I don't intend to analyze post by post, but I noticed two interesting points in his progression:

1- He asks a lot of questions and does not process the answers, nor does he create reads with the information obtained. It is noted in the formulation of some questions, as in posts 109 and 194. The character of these questions is also doubtful.

2- Observations seem empty, as if they seemed to be giving an opinion, but in reality he was not getting anywhere, as in posts 195, 196 and 197. Post 197, in particular, demonstrates him entering a more self-affirming instance, in the sense that he feels the need to demonstrate that he really has a deficiency in the cognitive process of understanding and that his question had weight, implying that he would have to justify himself to me (and that does not make sense from a point of view town!Jumble, since he wouldn’t know my alignment and therefore wouldn’t feel obliged to offer me a satisfaction).

By extension, there is this scumgame of his that he published in the topic:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Which by the way demonstrates a behavior very similar to here, with inconclusive questions, instances of self-affirmation and a little devaluation of one's own ability (but the latter must be a trait of low self-esteem, not being AI).

Another small observation, which is quite subjective, but useful to mention is the way he illustrated his scumgame and towngame on the first post:

I think I've only finished one scum game so far, and it was this one. I didn't like my play there at all, but by default it's my best. As for town, I'd have to pick Open 793: Trust Fall. Yeah, it's a hydra, but all of my solo games weren't that good, honestly.

He refers to the scumgame as "this one", indicating cognitive distance from the item covered, while the towngame is inserted completely. In this context, I theorize that he unconsciously wanted to be associated with the town game (bigger, flashy text) and distance himself from the scumgame (smaller, unattractive text), and this is one of the concepts of something called "maintenance of appearance", which is one of the tactics that liars use to convey that they are linked to something positive, while trying to demonstrate that they are not associated with negative things. Of course, it is a bit of an overthink, but this is a very specific tell and difficult to identify (and it can also be easily mistaken if he was just too lazy to type both games in the same way) but added to the impressions I got from his ISO, end up having some weight.

Objectively speaking, I believe there is a greater chance that Jumble is more scum than town, so Lunar ends up inheriting that scummy impression.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his townread by the tone of this post.

[clidd]

Scum!Lunar getting caught and getting mad, maybe?

[ben dover123]

tbh Maybe the second post comes from more town but all the others ones I can see town and scum Lunar using.

Yeah, it could be newbie rage.

[clidd]

I just realized that Lone is from Pakistan.

[ben dover123]

I just realized that Lone is from Pakistan.

:thonk:

As town Lunar, this is newbie rage, and as scum lunar, this is him trying to get us to turn back on our own reads by declaring them stupid and the reads bad. So, this appeal is probably just NAI.

[clidd]

To be honest, I just can't buy scum!Lone.

[ben dover123]

To be honest, I just can't buy scum!Lone.

No one can. Especially me, I have had this situation with a newbie who didn't know anything and so I just used too scummy to be scum and it worked.

[clidd]

VOTE: Lunar Martian

If he's not scum, the scumteam is something between Rock, Chumbo and BM.

Maybe I would prefer Rock over Lunar for very personal reasons, but I believe that there are many indications that the 'Lunar' slot is scum (including my analysis).