PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Battle Mage]

I think whatever happens, I've given a decent account of myself here, in the 2 real life days I've been properly involved. The case against me is basically about my activity levels while VLA, which I think is somewhat diminished by my activity since, and I have comprehensively rebutted Mastina's arguments which others have hidden behind. I don't know if my reads will be hugely helpful as they aren't that strong yet in most cases, but there's some info to be gained from my elim I guess. Overall I feel like it's a fking waste to mis-elim me today but I'll take some comfort in it being Pooky's call if that happens. Pooky, I've told you my role (mith at the party) so consider the best way to play that.

And in closing for now, as I teeter on the brink of annihilation, an unashamed AtE to

Pooky:

Mate, please don't mis-elim me Day 1. My town winrate this year is shit, and the one thing I've got going is the 30-game no mis-elim streak. Also I'd like to actually keep playing and trying to inject some logic where it has been missing. I think I'm playing well so far here and being a good contributor to the team. I have every confidence in your ability to read me - you know I am a zero-effort lurker who struggles to get involved as scum, and an over-zealous spambot who has his fingers in every pie as town (scum/notgoodtown here have taken advantage of the fact I was spending time with my family over the weekend as a means to opportunistically push me as a lurker, but that hasn't borne out).
Exactly like our last game as town together, I'm basically relying on you to keep my ass alive here to avoid me being the first one elimmed.

If you do elim me, please like avenge me tomorrow by terminating the scum driving my wagon. And probably most of all my advice would be to actively lead from the front - any town elimming me Day 1 for no good reason, needs help. The case on me is, objectively-speaking, woeful.

If you wanna chat, in real time, let's chat. Otherwise, always love ya buddy, keep it real. <3

[Battle Mage]

sweet pagetop, couldn't resist

Pooky, your most loyal disciple is here.

[MURDERCAT]

Who is the scum leading your wagon BM?
Also are you all the way caught up?

[Toogeloo]

These past few pages have been sweaty with AtE.

[mastina]

your 'case' appears to be that i posted in some games and not others whilst on VLA.

It's more than that.
It's you making twelve posts in this game where you insist you're not reading the game and are using V/LA as an excuse to not make content during that time...while there is active proof across the site that your statements in this game were a lie, as well as proof in this game that your claim to have not been reading is also a lie.

I.e., that you made multiple posts insisting on V/LA as an excuse to not read and not make content...when there's proof that, given the chance to post 12 times, and given the things you displayed awareness of, that you were reading and could produce content during that time.

I had some time, just not enough time to actively keep up with the majority so I cherry-picked ones where I thought my contribution would be most needed in that window.

And yet, something ongoing-games-friendly from you where you said this, is not what you said. You didn't say "I'm V/LA over the weekend and this game just started so I don't have the time for this game right now", or something to that effect, where you mention that you have limited time on the weekend and that you can't spend that time on this game but it's fine because it just started.

You made multiple posts where you made a blanket "I'm V/LA, therefore, not able to make content"--multiple posts. One post was all you needed to make, but you made multiple posts affirming that V/LA. Multiple posts that take your previous-am-V/LA-on-weekends time. You felt the need to make twelve posts on the weekend emphasizing this V/LA, rather than just one and spending the time of those 11 posts elsewhere.

[mastina]

haha my scum meta is lurking, but i havent been lurking here, I spent the weekend with my daughter and then had work either side, plus more games than I normally have.

Yes and during that V/LA time you felt the need to make 12 contentless posts rather than just one, while displaying knowledge that you shouldn't have if you were genuinely not reading the game. And upon coming back, you produced a bunch of lame posts that, while technically content, were incredibly lackluster, lacking real substance/depth to them. And then with reads on less than half the playerlist, called it a night, on your first day back.

And only when you became the lead wagon did you pick up your activity.

[mastina]

there is definitely a problem with this site meta that posting lots of words, a la Mastina, is considered good, even if the underlying logic is fundamentally flawed

I've said this before and I will say it countless times more.

I will always be verbose, is part of my nature as someone with autism. I will say with 10 words what 2 words would perhaps still convey.

But I am never townread for the amount of words, nor am I sheeped because I make the words.
I am townread because of the content within the words and sheeped because it resonates.

The argument of "people sheep long posts that are bad" frequently comes from scum trying to out-maneuver me, and just as often this is pretty damn evident when they insist that my posts are bad/flawed...and yet when called out on it, either they refuse to explain, or their explanation is flawed, or they misrepresent my stance and rely on people not rereading my posts to realize that they were doing so.

Rare is the day that someone says my logic is fundamentally flawed, and then they accurately point out logical reasons that my logic is actually flawed--and when they actually do so, I will fully acknowledge them by owning up to having made a bad argument and listen to their point because of their genuinely good take.

But since the majority of the people who make the "mastina's logic is bad" argument are scum, they can't do that solid logical reason because of their alignment meaning they rely on flawed logic to 'counter' my logic, don't explain, or make a reasonable argument that relies on misrepping my posts and portraying them in a way that's easier to, so to speak, defeat.

It seems you're opting for a combination of flawed logic with a side of misrepping me as your method of attempting to counter my argument.

I'm sure she has noted that my activity was similar to here in the majority of my games, but it's inconvenient for her 'case'.

You did not make 12 posts declaring yourself V/LA over the weekend in your other games. That is a trait unique to this one.

In fact, TGP's Normal was not the only game you made content in at the time, but obviously TGP's is the only one which I can discuss due to it being the only one that ended. The relevant spot for this is currently on page 13 of this search, to be moved further back for people when you post more and to become unable to be viewed come Saturday.

If you were in six games, it is correct to say you did not post content in all of them.
But you didn't post at all in three of them if so. (I count two instances of you posting in the endgame of completed games, then a total of three games, two being this one and TGP's game.)
You did post here, making this game indeed unique among your ongoing games.

As the only game you were a living player in, that you posted in, but posted zero content during, but still posted a lot.

[Flavor Leaf]

check two four

[Battle Mage]

Mastina, there's a difference between me showing up and reading a few posts on the latest page / searching for my name in the searchbar, and reading the whole, or even significant parts of the game.

Let me set out the issues with your allegations:

1. Mastina alleges BM pretended not to have read any of the game while on V/LA, when I had actually been secretly reading significant parts of it.
A. Why on earth would BM-scum pretend not to be reading the game? Where's the motive?
B. If I had actually read the game, why would I subsequently spend several hours trawling through and giving my thoughts on everything?
C. If I had read the game, why would I say something about possibly being close to E-1, when I was nowhere near?

2. Mastina alleges that BM lied about being on VLA to avoid posting in this game, whilst posting in other games, implying he is scum here and town elsewhere.
A. I did not read/post any content in the majority of my games during VLA. The LA in VLA stands for Limited Access.
B. The game I posted in most frequently was reaching it's climax (Day 3 with only town dead, me once again on the cusp of a town-defeat) and it was the highest priority game to keep on top of.
C. Why would I pretend to be VLA for 2 days to avoid posting in this game? Clearly I wasn't going to adopt a lurking strategy, and if you thought that might be the case, it hasn't borne out in practice - something you conveniently ignore.

In short, Mastina, your claims I lied don't add up because there is no reason for me as scum to lie about them, and in any case they are demonstrably false to anyone who actually bothers to look.

Let me ask you a question:

Do you think, given we are now 80 pages into the game, there is anything else of merit for you to comment on?

You could give some thoughts on other players besides me - reads which don't simply lean on your false premise of me being scum.
Or you could give some thoughts on the things I've actually posted, rather than the things you bash me for not posting because I wasn't here. I have like 150 posts - do you have anything new to say about any of them?

It makes me laugh that despite you slating my lack of activity and using that to make a lazy and ill-considered claim that I'm scum, I've literally made twice as many posts as you, and a much more far-reaching contribution. On the occasions you pop up in the thread, it appears all you do is trawl through the game, look for references to me, and then regurgitate your old debunked theories.

[mastina]

oh really
i'll look into that BM

I did since I figured I'd be the only player who bothered to check.

Battle Mage has claimed that, at the time, he was an active player in 6 games, including this one and TGP's recently-ended Mini Normal.
This shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.
This also shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.

He didn't post content in this game, but posted 12 times here.

He posted content in TGP's now-completed Normal and one other game.

He didn't post in any other game, not even contentless.
It was a total of five games--two in postgame at the time he posted in them, a third being TGP's, and a fourth being this game.

So why the contentless posting in this game, rather than either not posting at all (what he claims is what he'd do on V/LA), or the content posting of the other two?

Why did he display a trait unique to this game?

[mastina]

my request to Pooky, and the town as a whole I guess, is to actually give me more than 2-3 real life days to do something useful and obvtowny, rather than elim me because I didnt have time to keep up with and post properly in the majority of my games over the weekend. I think that's a little opportunistic and slimey.

By the way.

On this note.

There is a lovely quote I want to give from a fairly obscure game that I feel does a good job of explaining why Battle Mage is scum here.

Subject: Mini 2096: I Don't Remember the Name of This Game

I Also, I was legitimately just really busy IRL which is why my posting/catch ups were limited and I maintain that was a bad reason to scumread my slot.

Nah, that was the individual scumtell I talk about above, and an excellent reason to suspect you. Scum and town tend to play differently when they have little time. Town motivated players will often try to ensure they do as much as they can with their limited time: naked votes, claims, really important questions. People who have time to whine in thread about how unfair it is when they are busy irl are usually scum. They try to use limited access as an excuse to lurk. These players also tend to continue whining postgame and claim that they'd have done the exact same thing as town, but they keep flipping scum!

Contrast: I did a sixty hour work week over six days from about three rl days into this game.

Ever since I had the pleasure of playing with Fonz in that game, I have taken this to heart, and yes, it remains true to this day, and anecdotally I've noticed I follow it myself. (Where as scum when V/LA I use it as an excuse to not be around but as town when V/LA I still try to give

something

.)

This game Battle Mage insists that his twelve posts while V/LA that gave zero content were something he'd do as town--maybe he genuinely believes that he would do that as town.

But twelve posts essentially 'whining' that he's V/LA is something that is far, far more likely to just actually come from scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

BM you need to claim your role

thanks.

[Battle Mage]

there is definitely a problem with this site meta that posting lots of words, a la Mastina, is considered good, even if the underlying logic is fundamentally flawed

I've said this before and I will say it countless times more.

I will always be verbose, is part of my nature as someone with autism. I will say with 10 words what 2 words would perhaps still convey.

But I am never townread for the amount of words, nor am I sheeped because I make the words.
I am townread because of the content within the words and sheeped because it resonates.

I think that's incorrect. In the games we've played, you've been townread for making big long posts, not because people necessarily agree with them. I just wish you would take a step back in these situations, when you're town, and see the big picture and/or critically appraise your own position. All I have ever really seen from your game is random tunnels on me, weak explanations, and then doubling-down and self-congratulation in equal measure. The reality is your entire focus for 80 pages of this game has been on peddling propaganda about me being scum, when I'm not. You haven't engaged with me in a meaningful protown way, and from what I've seen of your engagement with other people, it's been almost exclusively predicated on me flipping-scum (which isn't going to happen). That's not to say I think you're scum here, but I don't think your play is in any sense 'pro-town' - and that would be true even if my slot had been scum. Discussion is good, and your approach to my slot has been an impediment to proper discussion.

The argument of "people sheep long posts that are bad" frequently comes from scum trying to out-maneuver me, and just as often this is pretty damn evident when they insist that my posts are bad/flawed...and yet when called out on it, either they refuse to explain, or their explanation is flawed, or they misrepresent my stance and rely on people not rereading my posts to realize that they were doing so.

No Mastina, it's the reality of what is happening here, whether you're scum or town. Your long posts in respect of me, are clearly not accurate and I have explained why on several occasions. I appreciate you went to a lot of effort to make them, but again your comment above just proves my point. You won't accept anyone telling you that you're wrong, because you default to the fallacy that anyone who disagrees with you is probably just scum. That's not good townplay, any more than selling a bogus case on somebody for not posting much whilst on VLA as a justification for elimming them.

Rare is the day that someone says my logic is fundamentally flawed, and then they accurately point out logical reasons that my logic is actually flawed--and when they actually do so, I will fully acknowledge them by owning up to having made a bad argument and listen to their point because of their genuinely good take.

I think that's simply your ego talking. In every game we've shared, I've seen people explain issues with your logic and I can't recall you ever backing down. It clearly doesn't matter what I say to you, whether I'm right or wrong, because you have a very high opinion of yourself, and very little respect for me. And you can't bring yourself to consider the possibility that I might be town, and you might just be wrong. And the frustrating thing is, when you are proven wrong, I'm sure you'll blow it off as being my fault - when you made no effort to consider me in good-faith (as is always your way).

I'm sure she has noted that my activity was similar to here in the majority of my games, but it's inconvenient for her 'case'.

You did not make 12 posts declaring yourself V/LA over the weekend in your other games. That is a trait unique to this one.

In fact, TGP's Normal was not the only game you made content in at the time, but obviously TGP's is the only one which I can discuss due to it being the only one that ended. The relevant spot for this is currently on page 13 of this search, to be moved further back for people when you post more and to become unable to be viewed come Saturday.

If you were in six games, it is correct to say you did not post content in all of them.
But you didn't post at all in three of them if so. (I count two instances of you posting in the endgame of completed games, then a total of three games, two being this one and TGP's game.)
You did post here, making this game indeed unique among your ongoing games.

As the only game you were a living player in, that you posted in, but posted zero content during, but still posted a lot.

I think you're skirting with the rules on referring to ongoing games, and I think I've said quite enough on this already. Essentially your argument is:

"Battle Mage posted a few times here, but nothing substantial, during his VLA"

The biggest problem is...then what? Why does that make me any more likely to be scum?

Answer: it doesn't.

Mastina, you've been so wrapped up in this idea that you can shoot some dirty meta-angle to solve my slot, you've missed the most important thing - explaining why my post-rate over the weekend in this game makes me more likely to be scum. But it's completely NAI, and I think your approach here is pretty poor form, and self-evidently bad-faith.

[Battle Mage]

BM you need to claim your role

thanks.

I'm a VT

No idea where people got the soft-claim thing from, but didn't want to comment on it either way, in case you wanted me to eat an NK tonight.

[MURDERCAT]

lmao

[MURDERCAT]

Why were you so worried about having time to claim?
How is that not a soft?

[Battle Mage]

i will admit, if that was the exit interview, it was an anti-climax lol

[Double the Trouble]

can someone give me a heads up if i get to -1 so i can claim? lol

Pooky, do you know the roles in the setup but not who has what role? If so, would it be useful for me to tell you my role (in a way nobody else would possibly know)?

how the fuck u gonna post these

BM you need to claim your role

thanks.

I'm a VT

No idea where people got the soft-claim thing from, but didn't want to comment on it either way, in case you wanted me to eat an NK tonight.

and then post this

[Battle Mage]

Why were you so worried about having time to claim?
How is that not a soft?

lol i wasn't that worried - it was just a normal BM response to seeing a few votes and not really knowing what was going on.

it...just wasn't a soft. *shrug*

[Battle Mage]

can someone give me a heads up if i get to -1 so i can claim? lol

Pooky, do you know the roles in the setup but not who has what role? If so, would it be useful for me to tell you my role (in a way nobody else would possibly know)?

how the fuck u gonna post these

BM you need to claim your role

thanks.

I'm a VT

No idea where people got the soft-claim thing from, but didn't want to comment on it either way, in case you wanted me to eat an NK tonight.

and then post this

ah 1572 was because i was exploring the idea of crumbing to Pooky that I was VT without actually claiming VT, to give him more info on the setup.

i've covered 1519 in my previous post i think

literally baffled at everyone saying it was a soft-PR-claim. Wanting the opportunity to claim doesn't imply you're a PR, and also it was a jokey not-knowing-what-was-going-on post anyway.

[mastina]

I think softing pr on day 1 is risky play cuz u might attract trackers/watchers/cops/whatever. Methinks its not optimal play for scum!BM here especially cuz if he didn't, his wagon wouldn't have exploded like that(imo)

Softing a PR is also a great way for scum to avoid being eliminated on D1 without being forced to commit to a specific claim, giving them time to tailor a custom-made claim that fits far better into the game. (Something which FL is notably apt at doing.)

By letting it be a soft rather than forcing a hardclaim he's accountable for, you let scum get away with murder. Quite literally.

[mastina]

I think Norwee-Alisae is probably scum. Hard to believe 2 such capable players, 1 of whom has lots of experience with me, would both be scumreading me here.

What was i supposed to townread you off? Your inordinate amount of nothing stances and dodgy behaviour? BoP arguments only really work if meta suggests i’m wrong, but if we go by meta you are clearly acting way off your normal townie behaviour.

- Norwee

I mean what exactly are you expecting me to be seeing from you here?

A town BM that makes weak votes, says they didn’t read the game but not really, and in the end brings up Burden of Proficiency when called out on it?

- Norwee

For the record: these are both solid posts for casing BM as scum and showing why Norwee is town.

[Battle Mage]

oh really
i'll look into that BM

I did since I figured I'd be the only player who bothered to check.

Battle Mage has claimed that, at the time, he was an active player in 6 games, including this one and TGP's recently-ended Mini Normal.
This shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.
This also shouldn't be one of them, because it is listed as being in postgame. It cannot be one of the games he didn't post content in as a result.

He didn't post content in this game, but posted 12 times here.

He posted content in TGP's now-completed Normal and one other game.

He didn't post in any other game, not even contentless.
It was a total of five games--two in postgame at the time he posted in them, a third being TGP's, and a fourth being this game.

So why the contentless posting in this game, rather than either not posting at all (what he claims is what he'd do on V/LA), or the content posting of the other two?

Why did he display a trait unique to this game?

I mean the reality Mastina, if you cared to consider it, is that I displayed a unique trait in each game, as I posted with different frequencies in each (including in some, as you note, not at all). It isn't as simple as "BM did a unique thing in this game whilst in other games he followed a clear post/don't post pattern" - that is factually untrue. But you're still missing the pivotal question, which is why me doing something different in 1 game, implies I'm town in all of the others and scum here.

The problem of this is two-fold:

1. You are pushing an angle-shooting argument which doesn't actually indicate I'm scum at all, and you haven't attempted to make an assessment of my alignment based on it.
2. You are pushing an argument which is fundamentally unfair and not in the spirit of the game as it relies on my behaviour in ongoing games, which neither of us are allowed to comment on.

As such, I'd ask that you don't push this further, in the interest of ensuring we can both adhere to the rules.

[mastina]

The point is that you didn't have enough to read me off full stop. In essence, I wouldn't expect 2 good independent protown players to both settle on a top scumread of a guy who was VLA for the 48 hour life of the game. Doesn't mean you should have townread me either. But the fact you came to such a strong consensus doesn't look legit.

Haha yes, that would sound good for you if it wasn't an blatant misrepresentation of our read.

It is in fact your still avoidance of any real read and engagement on the thread (ignoring your attack on us, as that's easy for scum!you to replicate) that's been increasing my scumread on you for every minute since that V/LA has subsided.

- Norwee

Another good post for why BM is scum and Norwee is town.

[Battle Mage]

I think Norwee-Alisae is probably scum. Hard to believe 2 such capable players, 1 of whom has lots of experience with me, would both be scumreading me here.

What was i supposed to townread you off? Your inordinate amount of nothing stances and dodgy behaviour? BoP arguments only really work if meta suggests i’m wrong, but if we go by meta you are clearly acting way off your normal townie behaviour.

- Norwee

I mean what exactly are you expecting me to be seeing from you here?

A town BM that makes weak votes, says they didn’t read the game but not really, and in the end brings up Burden of Proficiency when called out on it?

- Norwee

For the record: these are both solid posts for casing BM as scum and showing why Norwee is town.

I will be interested to see the extent to which you U-turn on this tomorrow after I flip town, and you need someone else to tunnel. Although from memory, in the last game we played together, after I was conftown (mason, ironically), you just lurked for the remainder until you got NKed. So that would be disappointing.