Mini Normal 2183 | Innocent Things | Game Over!

[Andresvmb]

@Titus I think you’re being somewhat unfair in your response. I would note that you hadn’t really clarified the why you hadn’t read but decided to vote anyway until your last post. I don’t question people’s real life motivations/excuses. That’s a dangerous road to go down and I assume that people play in good faith unless it’s shown otherwise (and convincingly so). You will note that your vote has been followed by a quasi-naked vote from Not_Mafia, and there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of activity even though Flavor is E-2. Your vote also clearly makes Flavor the leading vote getter, instead of making it look more spread out. I didn’t mean dangerous in the sense that Flavor could get randomly executed, but rather that it creates a strong sense of momentum.

[Titus]

I want there to be a sense of momentum. I read people in relation to other people.

[Titus]

I am playing from here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Could have been a sense of momentum on any of the other 3 wagons, but mines gonna be the least telling to everyone but me.

[PlusJOYED]

anyone else wanna join the notmafia wagon?

[Dunnstral]

I think we need to stop townreading flavor for mysterious 'he wouldn't play like this' reasons and hold him to a higher standard, that means elimming him when his play is bad/scummy

I don't trust anyone's read on him that has him as town at this point in time

[Andresvmb]

anyone else wanna join the notmafia wagon?

I think you should consider moving to a wagon that has a higher chance of success. Though I believe that your push for Not_Mafia is genuine, I can’t see it happening today just yet.

[Andresvmb]

I think we need to stop townreading flavor for mysterious 'he wouldn't play like this' reasons and hold him to a higher standard, that means elimming him when his play is bad/scummy

I don't trust anyone's read on him that has him as town at this point in time

I don’t understand this post at all. Where has anyone uttered a TR of Flavor based on the fact that he wouldn’t “play this way as Scum”? Can you point me to it? Because off the top of my head, I don’t recall anyone really making that argument.

What specifically about his play has been Scummy to you? Outside of him obviously SR’ing you, how do you think his approach is not from a Town POV?

[Andresvmb]

You're townreading someone who has the audacity to fucking self-vote and then play it off like he was trying to initiate town's motivation

Do you think the audacity is scum!AI?

Because I don't

"FL won a game openwolfin'" does not change that

FL has the capacity to openwolf but here I see it as being much less image-concerned and more spontaeous/rough

@Dunnstral, the closest anyone has gotten to potentially aligning with what you’re saying from skimming through a few ISOs would be this. And even then, this isn’t really focused on what Flavor would do as Scum, but it looks to me more of a theoretical point about how Town don’t seem to care about how they come across, and want to solve the game, and how what Flavor was doing up to that point fit that idea. I can keep looking, but I think your post is more of an attempt at discouraging people from TR’ing Flavor more generally, and using it as an excuse to SR anybody that defends Flavor.

Look I’m fine with being wrong. Flavor is hard to sort. But I haven’t really seen anything particularly convincing.

[unwnd]

I don't think you're paying attention because I gave a clear reason as to why this is a good wagon

[unwnd]

Unwnd tunneled me hard Day 1 in Xenoblade as town, that's my only experience with them.

The fact they did that there, knowing how I am, is a little scummy, I guess, but like, I think it's a boring wagon right now, if that makes sense.

It's a different game with different players doing different things. My statement made towards you was very direct, the only thing you did was call me annoying and handwave it. I honestly don't think I learned much from that D1 or that tunnel, it feels like you sell your townplay short so you may excel in scum, where-in you can make hasty unexplained decisions under the guise of poor town. I don't want to believe in that, and I especially don't want to believe in it because I don't think Good scum means Bad town every time. Furthermore, you're someone who prides himself in his reads, and there is a certain method to your madness.

I'm not really seeing that here, and I feel like the words that someone else said from a game you recently won ring very true to me, and that's 'FL knows you think he's scum, you have to lim him'

[Andresvmb]

When you get far past enough knowing not to self vote, you reach an area where it starts to be okay again.

Noting that I only have 2 completed games with Andres, and both of them I was scum, one off site, so that’s an interesting thing to comment on my town game that I’m slightly FoSing.

Just for fun I’ll make a comment about this. You know how I can tell that you’re a better Scum player than Town? Even if we haven’t played that much together? Because having bad reads in a game does not get you executed. People expect the performance and the arrogance. But they don’t seem to be waiting around for you to guide the Town (as Town). It’s why people remember you as a dangerous Scum player above anything else.

It doesn’t mean you’re bad Town btw. I just think it’s obvious where your strengths are.

Eh, people used to say "if Flavor hasn't solved the game by Day 3, he's scum."

I have purposefully dumbed my early town game down so I can make it to later in the game. Few years back, I went through a phase where I got n1 killed like every single game I was in, and I hate that.

I'm just more obnoxious when I'm town, and I go after everyone, and flip reads a lot, so people don't like it.

But I will admit, my scum game, and knowledge of what scum should and shouldn't do, has stepped up over the past couple of years, so I will concede I am a better scum player than town player.

I still think I had Top 2 maybe Top 3 town year this year, I just don't have a popular town style right now.

I also went through multiple phases of rolling scum multiple times in a row and simultaneously, so I had more of an opportunity to show that side in the past few years.

I think I have 6-7 strong town performances this year, where I have like 4 or 5 strong scum performances this year.

It's all about what have you done lately, though, and my scum game is being highlighted right now because of specific games that finished recently.

Hank is a newer player, Andres. Him and I joined the game after that last newbie, so it might be a bit overwhelming, or he might be busy, which is why I'm willing to give it a little bit, especially considering everyone is having issues with what to do this game.

Uhm, I think the idea that Flavor “sells his Town game short” doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

You should also update that argument following the fact that Flavor actually released a full list of reads following your post.

[shellyc]

andres do you townread FL?

whats your read on unwnd?

[Andresvmb]

andres do you townread FL?

whats your read on unwnd?

I’m not ready to stick my neck out completely for Flavor. But you would agree that Flavor is a good player as Town and not just Scum yeah? So I am of the opinion that we should at least try and give Flavor some time to actually show their alignment and not just execute there because of a self-vote. We have enough players with a sufficiently strong reputation I think that we can quickly turn against Flavor if necessary.

I find it hard to believe that there’s this many people that are quite certain that Flavor is Scum when I’ve literally come out of several games where Flavor was impossible to eliminate even when Flavor was openly pushing a narrative that defied several events that had occurred throughout the game.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t TR unwnd. And I don’t find the last series of posts particularly helpful. It’s just rehashing an argument that honestly doesn’t match with stuff that’s happened immediately before and after and there’s not even an attempt at re-evaluating. I don’t like that. It’s close to tunneling the person with the most votes.

[unwnd]

What you're seeing a bit of annoyance in some aspects where I feel like I'm mostly just talking to myself. There's a reason I pointed out that I was the top poster (and hating it), because right now I am inducing an echo chamber with only a select people. You wanna know what the biggest irony of it is? Flavor Leaf, the person I am voting, is about the only person who has been receptive towards me. I don't enjoy being the forefront of discussion let alone leading it, the last time I got in this situation it was purely to keep up.

In a scenario where this keeps happening, I have to ask myself either if I've engaged with scum already or if scum hasn't even bothered to check in. What do you think?

[Flavor Leaf]

I personally feel I've done more than any other slot in this game in regards to stating my reads, trying to motivate the game, and the like. All my thoughts on every slot are out there.

[Flavor Leaf]

the fact only like Shelly stated anything about my wall post likely means I have strong reads considering not only did I actively do more work, my wagon sped up afterwards.

[Andresvmb]

@unwnd I feel some frustration at the fact that there’s just not enough engagement from several players this game. But I’m still trying my best to put out reasonable reads. I just have a few relatively soft reads, and nothing I would fully go to war for. My strongest TR is probably shelly, but I’ve been fooled before so I want to see how this game goes before I solidify that.

[Andresvmb]

the fact only like Shelly stated anything about my wall post likely means I have strong reads considering not only did I actively do more work, my wagon sped up afterwards.

I thought your wall of reads was reasonable but I’m also biased since it looks like I’m your strongest TR.

[Andresvmb]

^I would maybe disagree on nopoint though. I don’t see the slot as Scummy. I thought that acknowledgment that the slip maybe wasn’t that to be a Towny response.

[nopointinactingup]

Dang so many posts

[nopointinactingup]

Could Flavor’s self-vote “plan” have been disingenuous - an obvious attempt at making themselves look Scummy so that they can explain away their survival later in the game, without attracting too many votes? Yes, maybe. Flavor doesn’t seem that keen on giving out reads or establishing themselves in this game, so that’s not a positive sign. It’s also a marked departure from how they’ve played Scum the last few times we’ve faced each other though, and that in a way also makes sense (it would be easy for me or others to spot I think).

Where I’m struggling is when I try to make sense of it from a strategic perspective. Flavor seems fine under pressure as Scum, but he knows that he needs allies, or Town players that are in a position to make errors. The easiest way to get significant errors is by pocketing players, or at least have others actually think you’re Town. He doesn’t seem particularly focused on even projecting Towniness here, openly admitting to not trying hard, and inviting votes. Not the most viable Scum strategy long-term is it? The other side of it is that he’s buying time, but Flavor doesn’t like to sit on the sidelines for too long. If he continues to drag his feet for too long execute him. Otherwise, I think there’s better places to look for now.

So what you are saying is that FL plans everything as scum and he doesn't seem to be doing things that are long-term strategies like pocketing and projecting towniness, so you're not confident he is scum yet? IMO, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, I'm saying FL could have made the vote on himself as town or scum based on his arrogant nature, but then he justified it and knee-jerk pulled the vote back. That makes it slightly more likely to come from scum. Let's talk about another fact, why was he waiting specifically for the "second" vote on him? Though I could possibly see why the first vote would look townish, I don't see what distinguishes the second, third, fourth vote.

nopointinactingup

- If I recall correctly, they're the other one who pushed Dunn, so it's interesting they're both voting me now. Nopoint made the second vote, the one I was baiting, so this has a high chance of being caught scum for that reason alone.

Dunnstral

- Dunnstral brushed and deflected early game reads and looks to both try and pocket Shelly by hard town reading them, and also rescinded when speaking to another player, this was to Nopoint even.

In conclusion, vote Dunnstral, my theory is Nopoint/Dunnstral team, probably with one of my higher town reads.

I asked you already but why second? Is that the only reason why you think of me as scum based on a random number?

nopoint seems lurky which is what happened in 2174

I would like to hear from johnny on nopoint with johnny being nopoints scumpartner in that game

nopoint seems lurky which is what happened in 2174

I would like to hear from johnny on nopoint with johnny being nopoints scumpartner in that game

Uh they're a good scum player. Not too controlling, more capable of disappearing into the town than me. Not unlike here honestly

Shelly, so instead of reading and meta-ing me yourself you went and asked Johnny? Seems a bit theatrical. And one thing I have to add, there's no use in meta-ing someone if you only read their scum game. For example, you keep saying I'm lurking but if you read any of my town games (from waaaaaaaay before) you will see that I have similar post frequency regardless of alignment because I like to read a whole bunch of stuff in succession it helps me keep track of what's happening in town

Main 3 (Nopoint notmaf Hank) with flavor and you as distraction or potential scum if i'm wrong about one in main 3

I actually think this laissez faire read list is kinda town. Johnny-scum would be tangential here.

All these close to naked votes on FL as he's about to show effort makes me think he's town unless I'm missing something and effort-FL is a scum thing. FL's wagon actually was pretty productive there's gotta be some scum material here. Dunn's vote is pretty scummy and I already have a scum-read on him so I have no qualm about joining his wagon.

Vote:Dunntral

[TheFuzzylogic99]

Sorry guys- homework. School expect you to turn in assignment in order to pass I think that's just crazy

Titus- if you are having so much problems- why not sub out

I would like to vote flavor just bc of how much of a dangerous scum player he could be . Still he is not unsortable and a another day might make his alligntment clearer. Also if he is town he be helpful not only in his skills
but be a general pain to scum

Not Joy- NM is highly pro town so no