TENET - Game Over

[Imperium]

Yes it could

You're not doing much that makes you readable to me so if people are seeing things I'm not I'd like to know about it

Do you think my caution is unreasonable?

What are your thoughts on my thoughts on Muffin?

[Spiffeh]

They're: fine

My hangup is that I have not really been impressed with anything Muffin's done when he does discuss the game, and while it's been a minute since I've seen town!Muffin I never had trouble identifying his town game before

But I agree that scum!Muffin would probably know I'd feel this way and would do more to appease me than he is currently

[Hench Princesses]

Okay then.

*This list is not ordered*

A world of Titus town involves a world where she should have been easily found town for certain posts, particularly stuff like 1591 and 1592. As scum, Titus tends toward a slightly more 'whiny' tone and makes a lot of excuses for like... everything. The highly dismissive tone of my first push on her would kind of fit this, just because she veered toward a weird kind of AtE so quickly, but the second push on her was like... oh okay I need a shelly read, shelly, do stuff... okay shelly isn't doing stuff, whatever the other thread is more interesting. Tonally this feels really different than the way Titus reacts to a shitpush, even a shitpush that isn't super serious. Moreover, since Sirius was proactively thinking about the use of mech and reached a good plan very early on, this should have been an easy solve early on. She wanted Spiffeh happy and where he felt he could do the most good so she turnstiled him without really thinking about it. No problem.

A world of scum titus looks like this. Sirius like, posted some shitty rule-breaking plan or something in the scum PT and got force-replaced after stealing one of his scumbuddy's plans for how town would play the mech. Titus replaced in and felt like the presence of the other thread would be a good way to avoid playing the thread. She wasn't really sure how to play around spiffeh, and certainly didn't want to try to fake trying to solve with him so she just avoided him. She feels like she needs content so she posts a bunch of stuff dealing with the other thread without really ever wanting to engage too much with the plan or solutions in this thread. She's manipulating VCA to try to spew things like fire/gamma same-alignment that don't really make sense to warp reads for some reason.

Overall world 1 seems way more likely, but I wanted to rule out some of the elements of world 2. The spiffeh null read is fascinating and kinda makes me feel even better about town titus? I'm still fascinated by the idea that town titus just... doesn't really prioritize solving him, but somehow I feel like scum titus probably would have made much more of a concerted effort to manipulate him. In the extreme nightmare land of scum titus/scum spiffeh I feel like they probably theater more and I don't really think anyone is thinking through that scenario. I've basically just been trying to answer some basic questions. Why is Titus approaching spiffeh the way she did this game? It seems like the answer is... well, she doesn't really know he's town. I can maybe buy that even though it's not what I would have expected from town titus, but then town titus usually doesn't do what I expect her to do.

Town Titus does tend to veer pretty heavily toward paranoia about my play, but I kinda feel like the lack of her usual paranoia about me is probably more due to a kind of lack of engagement with this thread generally. I feel that about how she's approaching spiffeh and myself, but somehow it doesn't really make me scumread her. I have questions about her play but she's probably toward the top of my actual reads. Scum titus world feels weird and unlikely.

[Bell]

I don't want to say a lot more about this slot right now. I have limited experience with him and the experience I do have cannot be discussed easily. There are a few things he has done that reminded me of a world of scum bell, namely frequently emphasizing he was leaving the thread and then not really ever seeming to know what was going on. He's missed like... three total mod messages about game events? And Bell as scum does sort of go into... condescending repartee, that he then dismisses. But I do kinda think the adage that 'bell will obvtown as town' is actually maybe true and I think he's done so here, even if not really in the manner I would have expected someone who sees themselves as having that reputation to do so. I think he totally just does not get what I was doing in this game since Imperium revealed and decided on Shelly as the flip, since at that point my goal shifted more to shoring up townreads and looking for holes in the block. I would say his thought process seems more fluid this game than what I'd expect from a scum bell, and his desire to get in the shit is certainly a lot lot higher as well. It's hard to tell how much I should weigh Scorpia's reads from early game vs. my own reads across the last... 70 pages or so given Scorpia is now frankly unlikely to catch up at all until dayphase 2, assuming I don't get vigged or something. I pushed Bell in ways I think he didn't like because I wanted to make sure that we could casually and completely rule out a world of shelly/bell s/s in the event of a shelly redflip. I know other people weren't considering this world, but if we're winning the game with a completely solid townblock it is one of the best ways to get him in it. He probably won't believe that was my play but making sure he was fully townblockable has been most of my concern in the last few days. I would have liked a more cohesive argument from him to see how far he would push the case but I'm not sure that "gut" is actually less town indicative for his push.

unwnd
I was trying to find the game where I seem to remember conflict with her and actually I can't find it. And in the mean time I did find a game where we actually were fine together. So I did not have any reason to think we really had an ongoing major playstyle conflict, on closer review. That being said, I thought her asking me about the first titus vote this game and then basically implying answering the question made the vote worthless was annoying, and then the "town consensus" argument drifted into full absurdity. It's certainly the case that sometimes scum just *do not* get certain things because they're focused too much on other stuff, and so it becomes exceptionally difficult when I'm dealing with someone who just does not get what I'm even talking about half the time. I think this also made her exceptionally confused on what my actual read on her was, which was constantly in flux, and probably contributed to tilt. Since I can't even find the game I remember us having t/t issues I can't consider how similar what happened here was to that or how much it reflects a systemic issue in my play.

A world of scum unwnd, if people actually wanted to consider such a thing after the exit, would probably involve:

Noraa/LLD/Hench/Shelly/???

being unable to find enough misflips in this thread after shelly and myself and believing this thread actually risked getting solved before day 2 thus giving up?

early game fearmongering:

...What happens if the plan is lead by scum?

But I also just feel surprised that she never really seemed interested in buying into the points where we overlapped, including:

Other thread feeling a scumping from Superbowl9

I don't like petapan in the other thread btw

That I can agree with

idk, this is probably less about her alignment and more about just how I feel about stuff atm and thinking about how this was handled on both our ends. Obviously I could have handled it better but I also have had a *lot* of people use fake personality conflicts with me as a pretext to scumreplace out so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not actually done thinking about that slot yet, even if it's... probably just town too

zMuffinMan
I have no history with this guy. His posts are funny. I've disagreed with almost none of his takes. I like his presence in the thread and his intro asking about mech clarification felt natural and town. Apparently he is a scum genius or something but having never seen these genius scum games myself, he's just town in my book until someone cops a guilty on him or something, idk. A world of scum muffin involves him being very charismatic and funny as scum. I fully support that brand of scum play and I will reward him for it by continuing to not really think about his slot for another day probably.


Spiffeh
At this point Spiffeh's development of his read on me almost totally matches our first game together, so that's pretty reassuring.
Some of my issues with him this time also feel similar to my issues with him then, where he was also town, where I feel like he should be townreading certain slots (myself, GX) more than he is, or is getting to those reads slower than I'd expect, so that makes it harder to scumread him.

I noticed in Boon's reads list that he suspected Spiffeh toward page 2 and at the end of page 3 but not at all in the first half of his iso on page 3. This jumped out at me more because that made me realize that Spiffeh kinda hasn't had a lot of forceful presence in the last day or two... but that doesn't make him scum. But if there is scum 'slipping through the cracks' this is the type of thing that can invite a re-evaluation. Titus finding him null is fascinating. I do think he's town, but if we don't solve thread 1 by day 3-4 I'm not sure I'd call him a 'non-negotiable', mostly because I hear he has a reputation for having a pretty good scumrange (even though I don't think I've seen that scumrange firsthand).


Gypyx
The experience I have with GX cannot be discussed and is not substantial enough for me to do any meta here. Very little to say here that was not said here:

@HP Why do you think GX should be higher?

-I think his self-conscious observation that he wanted to try a new playstyle is more likely to be town
-I think his emphasis that he didn't want to give reads was likely to be town particularly combined with
-his re-evaluation of sirius who he initially took as town and then decided to reevaluate which does not match how I think scum would position around a force replaced player and
-the fakevig vibes me as townie, this may be dumb, but *particularly* the fast retraction when it was obvious it wasn't going to work
-forgetting he jokevoted me doesn't feel like how scum probably postures around a scum push

obviously this is not a super deep iso to analyze and his phone broke but he's been hitting a lot of points that feel really townie to me

which some people already disagree with, but he hasn't really done anything since I wrote this that would change my take at this point in a meaningful way. Usually when I intuit a slot is town in early game I try to support their pushes whether I agree with them or not, and I felt that way and have been doing that for GX, even after I felt Titus was one of my higher townreads. My second vote on Titus had a lot more to do with supporting GX's involvement in the game and hoping he'd open up more than anything else.

Brian Skies
He's basically confirmed to have an extremely strong PR which means at night he's at most a goon if he's scum. I thought his early tone/engagement was *very different* from my expectations of town brian, but pretty much 100% of my concerns there are explained by him having a weird PR. That being said I kinda don't get why he's a non-negotiable. I don't scumread him at all now, I think he feels kinda townie, but I don't know what I'd point to that would make me say, off play, "no, brian never flips scum here." He's probably town, but not so much more probably town than, idk, other people.

Annie Edison (notscience/The Bulge)

I have no history with these players. NS has 'gone with the flow' a lot in this thread. My concerns with NS involved finding brian town faster than I thought it was reasonable to do so and sheeping bell's gut even though the shelly case felt very clumsy at the start. Then there's the dumbtell where she asserted that scum did NOT get a chance to choose which scum went in which thread, which in a world of scum Annie was an attempt to overcompensate for making sure she didn't perspective slip, I think, rather than an actual attempted dumbtell. (Is notscience a she? the avatar is a woman, I default to she for NS for that reason but haven't double checked). I actually like the slot more after hearing NS say she kinda wanted to sheep Bulge on the shelly read but I would have really liked to see more of Bulge's reasoning if that was the case. A world of scum Annie is a world where scum Annie sees herself as a peacemaker, actively interjecting into conflicts and trying to calm things down. That's a good scum strategy because it's hard to scumread people doing that. Annie doing it doesn't make her scum tho. This means that my main issue with the slot is more that I find the towncase a bit weak. I can see a world of town Annie, I just don't know that I *have* to see that world. This is another reason I wanted to poke Bell some more, as his total acceptance of her sheep felt kinda weird to me but I basically got nothing but Bell getting extremely paranoid about me in trying to solve there. So that subquest ended up a bust. For me too many of Annie's positions have been consensus and the Bell sheep felt too weird to be totally comfortable with her play, even though her play has been 'pro-town' even if she is scum. I agreed with pretty much all of her 'non negotiables' or the sentiment behind them at least in her recent list, but I still don't know that her being right about a lot of stuff and always being on the right side of things makes her town. Given these qualities I'm not in a rush to flip the slot, but I'm looking for 'this shit is never not town' and although I had that feeling for a little while after the townslip it's kinda passed. I like NS's play and will keep looking for ways to shore up the read.

Almost50
This slot is basically null until I see more content. I thought he was town in real time, reread his iso and couldn't remember why, liked a bit of his catchup (particularly the spiffeh read) but would need more to solidify anything.

shellyc

I actually mostly like shelly's content and scorpia had a very similar reaction to bell's opening to her. I don't know how she gets pooky town but her like kinda repeating her different townreads to keep them straight has a pretty townie vibe to me. What is shelly's scum strat if she is scum?

229-250, I pretty much agreed that shelly's early take on Bell seemed totally fair
296 was in response I think to my reads in 290 and that reaction I think made sense to me, not insofar as shelly was agreeing with my reads but she understood I was offering an against-the-grain perspective for the time
301 is pretty even-tempered for someone tunneling
308 is totally fair if not townie in itself
319 could be shelly as scum picking up that brian was off tonally as a TPR but certainly reflects my sentiments at the time which was that brian seemed 'off'
371 seems townie tone
872 -- I agree with every single read. Are you assuming this is TMI?
1388 -- makes sense for gamestate to me

She's been absent a lot but this is not the slot that would immediately jump out at me for a flip. I am not familiar with scum shelly and don't have a meta argument here at all. I could be wrong, and I'm not so dead certain on this read that I'm really planning to pollute this thread a lot if the IC is just decided, but the scumread here is *not obvious* to me, the scumread on you *seems fair*, and I'd like a lot more explanation from annie on what the meta case here is supposed to look like because I have literally no context for shelly's range as scum

what's funny is when I was writing this, I also saw

if shelly's wim would be much higher in the other thread I'm not opposed to using day 1 turnstile on that

my WIM would be much higher in the other thread but it feels like you're deliberately trying to turn me over

which also kinda made me think she could be scum lol

but honestly I really did and do just like most of her early takes. That being said I was thinking of rebuttals I would have expected:
296 could just be pocketing me because I'm wrong on one of those reads
301 is too muted for someone who believes they've found scum
319 reflects that shelly is a strong player and as scum naturally PR hunts even unintentionally (I think shelly scum flip might make brian more town)

but idk, even now 370 looks pretty town to me 871 -- also at this point I should note cakezz deleted something and all the numbers are fucked -- these posts looked, on their own, townier than a lot of the stuff bell was posting. This made it important to me to ask questions about bell and annie sheeping bell, particularly if shelly flips town, not so much because I think it makes bell scum but because I think a shelly townflip would make me move annie down several ranks. In fact I still just feel really ambivalent about how Annie approached the shelly wagon altogether.

Like if shelly flips town, I do think it was possible to find town in shelly, although her pooky case seemed to have no heart behind it and her activity since then seems... like she gave up, which doesn't mean she's scum in and of itself but makes it way harder to find her town.

idk given the level of consensus here I was kinda looking for more of a fight. I thought Annie or Bell would really pick apart 2006 and really engage me on a deeper level with how scum shelly works or doesn't work and I just never got that which was really disappointing. Doesn't make them scum, but I think I could agree with the *full locktown* if either of them had ever really felt like they could engage with my concerns and I actually felt like there was a solid rebuttal. Shelly still feels like a compromise and a potential misflip even though her play in the last day or two... makes me hopeful maybe she really is a hit?

**

I was originally going to do "town world" "scum world" but eventually just gave up trying to do that pattern for everyone

[Hench Princesses]

I tried for a little while to make an ordered list but people kept moving up and down. Higher is a little better but not a lot better, basically

[Bell]

Such effort.
Maybe don't vig the barbarian.
But I still want to send either them or A50 over next round.

I think it unlikely FLavorflips scum because it was too fast. I saw the web spinning, but couldn't tell if scum web spinning or not. I'm not sure Pooky is scum for it because I imagine he has a lot of pent up beargression toward flavor. I would also like to point out that he probably found a little time for this game recently and this activity and his sudden shift in disposition somewhat lines up with that as either alignment. He also, sometimes hides his reads and then sucker punches you, even though he thinks you're town (DC, me elo) so I don't see it as out of the ordinary for him to do so with a genuine SR.

[Bell]

I still think it's totally in line for scum to blockhead tunnel obv town for a town read or shift in reads.

I didn't want to spend time casing Shellyc, when she got search lighted and it started to become more clear she was scum for whatever other scum indicators people use.
Though also, I was busy.

[zMuffinMan]

I never had trouble identifying his town game before

: |

[Hench Princesses]

I still think it's totally in line for scum to blockhead tunnel obv town for a town read or shift in reads.

I really don't feel like I was tunneling you though, and if you mean unwnd, idk I don't want to get into that but I think that take is bad

[zMuffinMan]

a simple ctrl+f of our last game together (forgotten hourglass) says that's a lie

[Bell]

I still think it's totally in line for scum to blockhead tunnel obv town for a town read or shift in reads.

I really don't feel like I was tunneling you though, and if you mean unwnd, idk I don't want to get into that but I think that take is bad

I don't care.

[Spiffeh]

I think that's one of the fifty games I have erased from my memory

You could be right though

[Hench Princesses]

Can you at least clarify if you're calling yourself obv town or not?

[Bell]

I am obvious town.

[zMuffinMan]

well to be fair, i was kinda trolling with cupcake in a neighbourhood that game so it was more... non-standard than others

but eh

im just wondering what youre expecting imperium to say that's gonna convince you if you dont see it. just seems like a fruitless line of conversation

[Spiffeh]

I guess we'll find out!

[Imperium]

Thank you hp! I will read through that tomorrow. My brain hit a wall today and processing mafia is hard. I still haven't read the stuff from last night. Nacho is taking a quick nap before going back to work, so I'm sure he'll read through it tomorrow unless he passes out as soon as he gets home.

My problem is the porky's push on flavor just didn't look like a town push. He was just really kinda slimy in the way he pushed flavor. He accused boon of being so scared of him that he dipped from the thread, which doesn't make sense, accrued him of not having the reads and going agains the plan, when it didn't even look like flavor knew the plan. I don't think half that thread knew the plan since they've just been so busy screaming at each other. I don't know that push doesn't read right, nothing about that felt right. If pooky had more times available to him, and he actually cared about that plan that he put forth, he'd want to make sure that we eliminated scum over here. He didn't need to hammer his turnstile right at that moment to go exteminator bear in the other thread.

Yes it is possible that Pooky is town and Flavor is scum and that was just an innocent and awesome push and I'll congratulate him later, but something feels very rotten about it. If flavor flips town, the gawkers who kinda chuckled from the sideline should be looked at again. So Cabd wondered at the time how he should be reading flavor, but why not how he should be reading pooky? LLD puts a vote on pooky, is too high to do anything but just comment what is this shit?

What is up with mafia these days that someone just comes in screaming and everyone just goes oh okay I'll follow. I don't get it.

[Imperium]

spiffeh I'll talk about muffin tomorrow. ^ was only possible because it's a bit of a rant rather than me really thinking.

[Imperium]

Anyone thinking Pooky v Flavor is S v S?

It's possible but I think unlikely. I don't think the pooky tends to bus teammates, and would be surprised if he did it day one when it was pretty unnecessary.

It's not impossible, people do tend to burn their meta sometimes, so. I just think it's unlikely.

[Imperium]

Gamma/DEB - if you read this and you really are a bodyguard, please bodyguard deacon blues.

[Gypyx]

Gypyx I'm not scum reading at all but I also don't know him at all - peta mentioned his scum game would be fruitful to read so I'd like to do some skimming of his scum games.

All my metta is on my wiki btw, but the game peta mentionned were marathons

Also, i see there has been claim, is there a list of those somewhere?

[zMuffinMan]

wait, there's been a claim?

[shellyc]

am i at e-2?

am I being asked to claim rn

[Imperium]

Other thread has a couple. Skitter claims to a be a watcher in this thread, and gamma has claimed bodyguard. Firebringer has also claimed odd night cop in this thread.

We have no claims here.

[Imperium]

am i at e-2?

am I being asked to claim rn

you were e-1 but we asked people to unvote so that we could have time for nacho to get his thoughts in the thread before we probably die tonight.

[Imperium]

It would be pretty amusing if pooky is town that correctly identified flavor scum, rammed through the lynch, and the scum team were just in a state of wtf.