Yellowstone

[Horsewoman]

A lot of people saying 'we should flip someone just for information'. Anti-town moindset in my opinion, always try to get scum from day 1 because this is our only opportunity. Also the information gained from people flipping is usually garbage and unreliable.

Who said we should flip someone just for information? I missed that, I've been looking all over and can't find it.

@Horsewoman are you ignoring this post?

I answered the question of what I was talking about a page ago in conversation with DGB.

[Guillotina]

I dont see it, point me to it please.

[Horsewoman]

Click on the post that I made. Then read the rest of that page and the beginning of the next one. All of those posts are a conversation about the post I made.

[Horsewoman]

Basically I said momrangal/DGB/Mathblade had all displayed that mindset, but momrangal is semi-confirmed town and MathBlade had other indications of scumhunting so I was really suspicious of DGB

[Guillotina]

I dont see where they say "We should flip someone just for information". @Horsewoman

[Nero Cain]

[Guillotina]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Sheeping

This wiki is a huge help

Thanks

Do you have any reads? You got only 8 posts, I hate game coasters and I'm losing patience.
Step it up!

[Horsewoman]

I dont see where they say "We should flip someone just for information". @Horsewoman

As a direct quote she didn't say that. I was referring to a post she made where momrangal said "DGB help me flip somebody" and she said "I'm trying" or something of that sort.

[Marky Mark]

Hey all - this pace is getting a bit ridiculous.

Pig's lack of analysis/scrutiny continues on - would be really good to get some reads from them

I'm not really getting Math's argument in 1250 that not ending the day early would risk exposing the masons. I mean it's true in the general sense that the more posts that happen, the more information that is out there, which should in theory make PRs and scum both easier to identify, but I don't see how the mason factor affects this, and it concerns me that he is trying to use dodgy logic to get an elim through quickly. Tbf, we are 3 days away from deadline tho so in his defence we probably ought to start bringing things together

While Toogeloo... that aweful vote after Momrangal claimed Mason looks aweful.

Infinity at least has an excuse for keeping the vote on Mom, like Infinity thought Mom was joking with a claim and as soon as Momrangal confirmed it was serious, Infinity unvoted.
I also looked into Infinity's ISO and the posts feel generally townie.

Toogeloo in the other hand, the posts of that slot does not give me town vibes and again, they voted Mom right after she claimed Mason.

hey are ok with yeeting just anyone to generate real reads, they voted the Mason, and his ISO shows complete disinterest for game solving so, so why not just yeet him? Let's generate those real reads with his flip.

These two posts from guillo in tandem stood out to me as the first very much frames their push on toog from a SRing angle, whereas the second seems to phrase it more as a bit of SR but also semi-policy as they aren't making an effort to solve and to see what info we get from the flip

@Guillo - where does your toog vote stand on the spectrum between being SR-based and being policy/utility based?

On the toog note, I've already articulated why I find them scummy and I would like to see a wagon there today so that we can dive into that a bit more. I am, however, willing to be pragmatic and will look for a consensus vote (ideally one that fits with my POE) by the end of today to ensure we have time for due process, if the toog wagon isn't going anywhere or if toog starts towning it up and actually solving

[JacksonVirgo]

It seems a lot has happened since I was gone

[JacksonVirgo]

Let’s just say that the game looked to be miseliming a mason claim I believe. So I did what I had to do to stop it.

The mason claim was never going to be limmed (hammering would be a scumclaim) so this worry isn't real but the ego feels towny.

You didn't believe it was a real claim and you were voting her. Of course the worry could be real.

Hammering with 4 days left in the day phase is kinda a scumclaim imo

Nobody actually ever follows up with these types of reads.

[JacksonVirgo]

Nobody actually ever follows up with these types of reads.

I mean not really this was an exaggeration but it's not as much of a scum-claim than it is just anti-town and scummy.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: noraa I don’t think you approach reads like this as town. Math does unfortunately.

Can you explain this Noraa read for me? I understand at it's core but I am not sure I am following exactly

[JacksonVirgo]

She's pretty much scumreading a bunch of inactives and townreading the players who are doing anything (this was already pointed out by vaxkiller). And posts like 481 are in my opinion, really terrible.

481 - link your goddamn posts.

PFFFFT jacko's face atm be like : -_______________________________________________________________-********

How did you take a photo of me!?

[JacksonVirgo]

If we have a vigilante, I recommend shooting in the low-posters to clear the null-tier. The scummy players and the townie players sort themselves out more or less where I've seen null tier stay null and loses us the game.

Vig should shoot either Toog, Infinity, or DGB.

Not infinity. And that's too narrow a pool for a hypothetical vig to shoot in.

[Marky Mark]

@Guillo - answers to your big push on me as promised below. I have

underlined

my bits for easy reading, regardless of the colour scheme chosen

Evening all, today has just been very mental with work, so apologies for not being on. This will be a flying catchup post until I get a chance to sit down properly (hopefully tomorrow)

UNVOTE: - I'll give Llama's replacement a chance to catch up and psot their thoughts of the game state. The slot is scummy an I don't want to let it slip off the hook, but my vote there serves no purpose atm.

On a similar note - I can see that Pig's vote is on No Elim, who is also being replaced.
- @Pig: Who would be your next choice to vote aside from no elim's slot?

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Mafia

I just don't get this post - like why bother stating the obvious assumption being drawn here when we can all see what Momrangal was trying to convey?

Again, i felt like your intention with your question here was to cast shade on me for stating the obvious. Why can I not? Why does it bother you? You never elaborated on that.

Clearly this is very subjective, but I thought mara made it fairly clear what she meant, so someone spelling it out unnecessarily (IMO) just felt a bit like you going "yeah, what she said" ie trying to emphasise the point without really adding anything to it.

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

This felt like condescending. "I'm loving guillo's reads" Why can't you be direct and say, I don't like these posts because this and that?

I'm sorry if I caused offense. I have not heard the terms before and they seem like vehicles for fudging reads to me. A townie scum is just a good scum and a scummy town is just a bad town IMO so it felt like you were trying to use the terminology as a bit of a crutch. I generally try to be somewhat tongue in cheek, and the terminology did make me chuckle, but I can try and be more direct as I appreciate sarcasm is hard to do well in a text-based format. I would never meaningfully offend anyone - I'm just not about that :S.

Condescending, Trivializing, Patronizing

:

This involves making light of a player’s contributions or insights, to intimidate them into losing confidence. “LOL, you’re just not very good at this, are you?”. Often this is conveyed as mere banter or joking, but always negative, and usually involving ad hominem attacks on a player, rather than directly on a player’s arguments or insights.

Noraa is guilty of this too, refer to "King Guillo's remarks".

You have an uncanny familiarity with mafia jargon for a new user in their first game onsite. Hmmm

You were gonna go down the road I'm on, were you not?

Yes, in addition to my tell, a large amount of her posts is IIOA, and even when I'm a 1v1 with Guillotine the way she moves through it and tries to get out of it is a little weird.

Yes, on page 3 I made that comment, but I also commented on her other behaviors eg her "someone do something" post and her subsequently trying to claim townpoints for it. You trying to say that we are on the same reoad here is just misleading.

What is IIOA sorry? Just not familiar with that one.

To your questions about IIOA refer to this link: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... f_Analysis

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

@JacksonVirgo

Mark went from being townread to null read quickly for.

It feels like the kind of wolf that earns towncred early in the game and then turns that towncred on the people that townread them to discredit their reads. In the wolves mind, it would look suspicious if someone who town reads the other suddenly scum read them because town react by impulse, so you'd see no progression between both reads.

What they don't know is that it is ok for us to change our mind in the blink of an eye if something ping us because we are the uninformed majority and it is ok for us to be wrong.

10/10 strawman - if you think that I am scummy then articulate your case but this is all pure conjecture. Surely all scum want to earn towncred?? And yes, flipping reads with no progression is weird, but equally, if someone that you TR starts acting scummy then just call it out and explain why and people willl understand your progression. I'm genuinely starting to feel like your "townie scum" hunch on me was a concoction to allow you to pivot to SRing me - if you had something concrete that I was doing that was scummy then why not just use actual evidence?

@Guillo - what exactly are you SRing me for? Is it just my comment on your "townie scum"/"scummy town" post, or is there more to it?

@Pig - keen to have some reads from you

Nono's last post was like 2 days ago so I'm thinking they are maybe afk. Could definitely see them being lurkerscum here, but I'm not sure a vote would really serve much of a purpose if they aren't going to respond.

I felt that the quality of your contributions declined right after I stated that I town read you. Like as if I town read you I was gonna be forced to ignore those red flags because otherwise I would look like I cannot make my mind up.

It's honestly flattering that you think I would plan my entire game around whether you specifically were TRing me or not (sarcasm again, but in the gentle "laughing with you, not at you" sense). Sadly, the reality is that my day job has been very full on over the last week, so I have not been able to dedicate as much time to this as I would've like to. This has been compounded by the ridiculous pace of this game.

Then I remembered your interaction with Noraa where she accused you of shading her and when I pushed her on it, she couldn't provide evidence of shading whatsoever and instead, she just townread you, just because! Which was really weird! Not only that, you didn't push on that either! You didn't bother to go deep into her sudden townread on you, you just accepted it! Like if both of you were wolves, one would be telling the other "hey hey, maybe the push is a little much, stop there because you are gonna get scum read Noraa", then after a while you rolled over for her and white knighted her?

So I figure, what if these two are in it together and all of it was just theater?

So noraa pushed me, and their logic seemed pretty flawed but they seemed to believe it. I reponded to them to explain my POV and they seemed to accept this and update their reads to reflect this. Updating your SR based on the person you are pushing making a coherent defence of their actions, seems like reasonably town behaviour to me, so it didn't unduly bother me.

So I push on that and the whole convo with relaxed Noraa turned hostile quickly. Her hostility began when I stated that you and Noraa could be w/w.
Tbf, I did notice that she did get more hostile mid d1, so I can see how this looks bad fypov.
Noraa then went to past posts and began throwing shade on me for my reads and interactions with Horsewoman, whom I made a truce with (let's work together to get you town read).

It all made me feel like I am onto something because before Mark/Nora w/w theory, the chat felt like no pressure, no resistance, but after that, the chat gained this overall resistance. Specially from Noraa.

I mean for sure. You and noraa have been two of the most vocal players in this thread (esp pre-math), and I can see one of the two being scum here, but that is somewhere that I want to investigate d2 as I think the breadth of both of your interactions will make you both much easier to read in light of flips(s). If noraa flips scum then this totally makes me look scummy fypov, so I get it.

I believe that there could be a w/w or at least a v/w between you and Noraa for that.

[JacksonVirgo]

If we have a vigilante, I recommend shooting in the low-posters to clear the null-tier. The scummy players and the townie players sort themselves out more or less where I've seen null tier stay null and loses us the game.

Vig should shoot either Toog, Infinity, or DGB.

I just fully clicked with what you said here and I am going to say this as blunt as I possibly can. Vigilante's shooting within scummy players effectively wastes town utility considering they're essentially a secondary elimination. Scummy and Townie players are much more likely to sort themselves given Town's default utility with day eliminations, null players however getting sorted through the night is a much more effective use of a vigilante.

[JacksonVirgo]

I take it back. I think the team is Infinity/DGB/Guillo

I pick you as scum over G every time

I town read you both but that’s a really bad take. (Except if horse is town you’re probably scum)

If horse

is

town who would be your PoE for scum that's as skilled as Noraa. And who would be your PoE overall.

[JacksonVirgo]

That’s NAI Nora.

Good players town and scum poke everywhere. You’d scumread me every game for that. This is just a unique situation where scum is likely present in Horsewoman.

I believe it is AI for newbies. Newbtown is much more likely to tunnel whereas newbscum is more likely to poke around and try to find a soft spot.

Horse isn't new to FM, so if you think this is a defence against scum!horse it's not.

[JacksonVirgo]

Unless of course I misread the context and it wasn't aimed at Horse

[JacksonVirgo]

No one

No

[JacksonVirgo]

remembered wrong. that's right. Who TRs infinity?

No one. Exactly. Infinity why are you using what I said earlier in the game against me?
Nearly all the plist SRed horse which made me doubt myself and here ur trying to discredit my reads by using that against me?

I town-read infinity, you're discrediting them.

[Marky Mark]

Ok, so we are 3 days out and it would be good to have sufficient time for due consideration, plus the eventual claims process and time to respond to that. The current players on 2+ votes are:
Horse
DGB
Toog

Of these, I would take Toog as a clear preference, but I will move my vote to horse by tonight if it becomes evident that other people aren't SRing toog to the extent that I am.

[Marky Mark]

I asked the question yesterday, but it would be really useful if Math could articulate their reasons for voting horse in a clear and concise format, or at least point me to a post where they do that, as I have a feeling based on the current consensus that that could end up being where this day is headed.

Both horse and toog were in the sweet spot on the Momrangal wagon, but of the two, horse actually seems to be making an effort to solve and to play to the town's wincon.

[JacksonVirgo]

*Yeets nora a sandwich to munch while reading this.*

Spoiler: OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

Alright let's drop the act for this one, it's clear to me that anything less blunt and to the point commentary is going to be considered by our sharpened steel friend here.

My name is not Joseph! How dare you!

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

Guillotina!!!! Ooooweeee

Yaaaah! I'm here to lighten your days yo!

Make your days grand while killing scum!

Which given these have a nice and chill vibe to them amuses me greatly.

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

New to the forum right?

MINE

Yah, new to the forum.

VOTE: No Elim. But not like the user no elim, like a vote to not elim

VOTE: No elim

Ok

{. Are you new to the forum or pretending to be new to the forum?

very sad! low energy! lame!

This denotes excitement, wants to get the game going. Horsewoman, it's a 10-day Day phase game.

I did want to drive the game forward but I didn't (and don't) have any reads this early so I hoped someone else would do it for me

You were bored and you are probably used to fast games.

To some extent, sure. It wasn't entirely serious in tone because I rarely am.

Yah, you've been fucking around.

Trying to get the game to progress out of RVS/apathy stage is absolutely a pro-town mindset

Not necessarily

Now this is his 4th post, and the game has moved on to page 3, almost page 4.

This is fairly

sharp

shift in tone and seems to be setting up for a SR imo.

Alright, someone do the protown thing and create something dumb and artificial to get us out of RVS

I did want to drive the game forward but I didn't (and don't) have any reads this early so I hoped someone else would do it for me

This is the post of my main read, they're not even trying to post on interactions or anything. The game right now is on page 3, nobody would really have any solid reads at all but it doesn't mean we all just give up and let other's do everything. I first read this as a joke post as I've said, which is why I brushed off Marks read but then when they made that second post I quoted said that it was at least semi-serious and that's plain anti-town behaviour and I'm not going to let that slip regardless if they're Town acting anti-town.

Trying to get the game to progress out of RVS/apathy stage is absolutely a pro-town mindset

And then when I called it out for being anti-town behaviour they flipped the wording to make them look like they're actively trying to push the game out of RVS and solve and in extension discredit my case, they're blatantly trying to sap the town-cred from RVS. This is just straight scummy behaviour, what Town would twist the wording in this situation for their own self-gain.

Two questions, 1) do you think HW gave up and let others do everything?

2) In your experience, do all town members behave and act upon posts the same?

Testing the waters maybe? I'm probably stretching here but this is what it feels like to me at the moment.

Of course not, some prime examples of anti-town behaviour include

Not_Mafia, Not_Mafia and Not_Mafia.

Is this an reference I'm supposed to understand? I'm also new here so I didn't get it.

Me too! Hey look you made a fluff post with no point to it, what's the world coming to, hm?

Nice try at discrediting my way of game solving.

First, if the deep dive goes absolutely nowhere is because the content of it didn't. Thank you.
Two, my deep dive allowed me deduce that you attempted to noobtell and miserably failed.
Three, makes me wonder why you tried to noobtell? Either alignment do this, but why did you?

If the deep dive goes absolutely nowhere, then you're not doing it right, quite frankly. Your deep dive was a setup for something that hasn't quite panned out and is now making you look bad.

If you want to call people out for no-contenting, then at least provide some yourself. You can always provide content from nothing.

Ok well im now 99% sure I have soul read on Flea and I think they're scum. Maybe will explain why later. A bit cautious treading in this territory cuz last I SRed Flea, they were town. Gimme some time to think.

Have you explained why already?

You could just read yourself and see.

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Now I like this one. "Hah you thought this point but not this point! Therefore you are scum, my dear!"

Also I'll have you know I'm just as fluffy in real life. My queer butt just wants to love, be loved and hug friendos!

And also I will protect those I consider within the boundaries of my inner circle with my life. A truly scary sight to witness a fight or flight instinct be controlled and wielded in such a manner with reckless disregard for all but whom I stand to protect.

But thankfully the world isn't that full of meanies so I don't have to do that ʕ灬￫ᴥ￩灬ʔ

AtE?

Flea, what do you think about Horsewoman so far?

This ones also interesting. The context has been left out, potentially leaving it to be twisted for later deeds. It's a strictly out of game comment aimed at Nora when it comes to my personality beyond the game. You then take this moment to prod me on HW.

barely caring about other people's SRs on you(which is a newbscum tell that says they know the people SRing are right so they are avoiding)

Thinking about it, this feels like an inaccuracy - in my (limited) experience, newbscum tend to panic when people vote them rather than playing it cool like a more seasoned player. Not sure if you are stretching the truth to fit the facts here or have just had a different experience of playing with new players (entirely possible).

Btw - pagetop without even realising until I'd posted #oblivious #ImJustThatGood

This is inaccurate. NoobsScum will ignore and evade town that scum read them by instinct.

A noob town will panic because in their own perspective, they should be obvious town cause they are being honest, so when they get votes they panic because they dont understand it.

Not always. If we were children, maybe.

Also I'll have you know I'm just as fluffy in real life. My queer butt just wants to love, be loved and hug friendos!

And also I will protect those I consider within the boundaries of my inner circle with my life. A truly scary sight to witness a fight or flight instinct be controlled and wielded in such a manner with reckless disregard for all but whom I stand to protect.

But thankfully the world isn't that full of meanies so I don't have to do that ʕ灬￫ᴥ￩灬ʔ

AtE?

Flea, what do you think about Horsewoman so far?

Not at all, just reflecting on my mannerisms ^_^ I am the universal parent friendo

Horsey is sus, but nothing significant as of yet.

If there is nothing significant, why you sus her? Explain please.

This is setting up for later, it's almost like gut instinct isn't allowed and I'm not allowed have my read without justification.

Town: JacksonViggo, Nora

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama

For now

Why mention me specifically? This is part of a setup imo.

If there is nothing significant, why you sus her? Explain please.

Gut reads and overall tone. Nothing significant and nothing worth building a case on.

#212 is interesting though, what are you trying to achieve with this reads list?

Notes for my future self and my teammates, should I die, they can look into my ISO.

I love this.
It's stupidly NAI worded xD

Weird.

Show us where you thought Mark was shading people.

Nah I liked his reply and now TR him. If he starts being scummy again tho, my walls of evidence will come strolling in in some tall high heels like clickety clack clack.

Maybe i was wrong townreading you. This is not how town proceeds.

VOTE: Noraa

Evidence of shading or i'll park this vote.

OBEY ME OR I'M GOING TO JUST be kinda lazy... hm.

Town: JacksonViggo, Mark

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama, Noraa

This is about where I’m at as well although I don’t think all three of those are scum together, I think at least one is though if that makes sense.

Yah i dont think I'm actually God of mafia and found 3 wolves in day 1. But those slots need to get sorted.

Horsewoman is obvscum! I'd yeet her first.

Potential associative? This is an extreme shift though, that pressure vote just *poof* gone faster than a fart in the wind. The vote on Noraa is now serving no purpose.

OK fine I can't help myself OK? This is why I said its half and half

VOTE: horsewoman

Why?

Because she's obvscum, obviously. pfft. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Yes, i was attempting to discredit your deep dive because it was dumb. I wasnt trying to discresit you as a person or your slot. I also wasnt discrediting the deep dive because I thought you were onto me - the idea is laughable.

In a couple of hours I will read the game properly and come to conclusions

Curious again, i never said you did discredit me for any of those things, but if it is in your mind, it's because it's true.

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Yes, i was attempting to discredit your deep dive because it was

smart

. I

WAS

trying to discresit you as a person or your slot. I also

WAS

discrediting the deep dive because I thought you were onto me - the idea is

NOT

laughable.

In a couple of hours I will read the game properly and come to conclusions

This is what you are psychologically telling me.

I like these two posts...

Literally Guillotina putting words in mouth and trying to force something that I don't think is there.

This is an impressive Deathtunnel, shame about the execution though.

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

LOOOK AT MEEEEE! I'M MR GUUUILLLLOTIIIIIINA!!!!
Attempt at putting pressure back on Noraa, which I sadly know won't work.
"You're obvscum! And I'mma vote yoooou! except you're not so amma vote Noraa instead because she won't OBEY." (✿˘艸˘✿)

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

That basis for lock-scumming Horse is kinda weak. Just because you SR them doesn't mean town!them would SR you back.

A town wouldn't be afraid to OMGUS me if my pushes on them seemed so aggressive. I was expecting her to woman up and say fuck you! And vote me, cause that's what I'd do. As town i wouldn't just ignore you and let you paint me as scum, if you are framing me, you are going down with me.

And yet there's an actual post where I literally just OMGUS'd and I got the best interaction in this game yet from it

Did Noraa froze?

Horsewoman, Llama slot and Noraa is where I'll vote today.

JK, Mark. Whom you'd most likely vote to yeet here?

See this is where I think these constant read lists are a little butt bitey. It's entirely NAI but I find it amusing that these lists are being stuck to like rigidly. There's 3 options and 3 options only. There's no information on town leans and no effort to solve outside these lists IMO.

Helpful PC User EBWOP for him

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

That basis for lock-scumming Horse is kinda weak. Just because you SR them doesn't mean town!them would SR you back.

A town wouldn't be afraid to OMGUS me if my pushes on them seemed so aggressive. I was expecting her to woman up and say fuck you! And vote me, cause that's what I'd do. As town i wouldn't just ignore you and let you paint me as scum, if you are framing me, you are going down with me.

They aren't you, not everyone is the same.

Townie response.

Flea, are you town? Your ISO is more fluff than game solving as of now.

Two in one.
As I've said earlier, I'm fluffy af as a person.o(〃＾▽＾〃)o
My game policy is "I'm here for good time not for long time!"
You cut past the fluff I post, and you'll find content. You have to be willing to work for it, which to me at this point it's clear you're not and I get a frustrated vibe from you towards me because of all this. Partly why I've dropped most of the persona from this ISO so you can read it and not get pissed off I have quite a developed reads list at this point and have fewer nulls than you

Look inside and be afraid, of this impressive mess I've made. If you take a look now you will fiiiiiiiiind! I have done away with lies, done away with paradise, see whats going on inside my miiieeeeennnnnnnd mwahahaha

Has No Elim posted at all?

Just as a friendly pointer, there's the ISO sections which let you look at players in ISOlation, and there's the Activity overview on the bottom that lets you see how active players are and how long since they last posted

As a less friendly note... this be fluff

Ur town play is trash then if that's how you think. OMGUSing is something nearly every newbie does but thinking it is optimal play is pretty bad.

Btw, my vote is gonna go here for a bit.
VOTE: Guillotina

The irony.

By the way, you don't get town points for OMGUSing me after I said why I think town would or should.

OMGUS is a term created by wolves to discredit town hunches on votes against them.

Also, next time I would appreciate if you did take quotes out of context, that's a very scummy thing to do. Do not worry though, I will look into the original posts for context.

Oh, my god. You suck.
A term created by wolves to discredit town pushes... but you want people to OMGUS you...
It's not a bad thing to do, honestly. and for some play styles, it's optimal. I use it occasionally because it gives me information I can work with ¡¡¡( •̀ ᴗ •́ )و!!!
But then I'm a weird player

By the way, you don't get town points for OMGUSing me after I said why I think town would or should.

OMGUS is a term created by wolves to discredit town hunches on votes against them.

you just called urself scum lol.

Nice try! I did,'t create the term dummy. It's been on existence since way before you started playing this.

See this is why I love Nora, Nora picks up on this shiz but doesn't call it out like I do.
Gulliotina coming in with the strawman defence.

Ok so

Town

Mark
JK
Momrangal

Null

Flea
Nono
DGB
no elim

Scum

Noraa
Horsewoman
LlamaMama
AGamblingPig
Toogeloo

And now we have a full reads list. All nulls included.

I'll keep my vote on Noraa, but i'm willing to come to a consensus with the people I town read to vote for someone else, as long as that someone else is in my scum list.

I like this.

"You can work with me but I'll only work with you if its in my interests!"

Now Noraa, see this? This is shading!


Flea, would you rather if i negotiated for a yeet in my town read list? How about in my null list? And why?

Double contexter, I actually quite like the response to my shade and it's AI IMO.

To answer the question, town reads not at all, null reads, yes. Absolutely yes. Your nulls should be a main focus IMO. Those are slots you need to sort. Given I've been specifically placed in your null list that means I've done something worthy of your attention, meaning I should be sorted by now. You've at best been idlying playing with your scum reads at this point and I get a lazy cat vibe from you overall.

I can't not say I won't read fae not aligned with anti-town.

Faer fluffy.

I agree.

You went up to null, because you are either a smartass town or God Level WIFOM Mafia.

This is not a valid read to increase the read on someone.
You don't improve a read based on WIFOM drops or someone being a smartass. WIFOM is the weapon of the foul and low.

Town

Mark
JK
Momrangal

Null

Nono
DGB
no elim
Toogeloo

Scum

Flea
Noraa
Horsewoman
LlamaMama
AGamblingPig

Now we have some meat. Me and Toogs have swapped places. All I did was yeet some shade, and now I'm scum. Toogs was a smartass/WIFOM-bomber and moved up.
This progression is WEEEEERRRRIIIIIIDD!

These posts are going to be your downfall... Your progression on me feels a lil weird.ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

I’m aware i can be wrong and I’m willing to be proven wrong.

Do that instead of posting fluff after fluff. Help me townread you if you are town. If you are wolf, keep doing what you are doing, i love it!

Which is manifested here. Now my posts are fluff after fluff after fluff. That lazy cat vibe is back again. I know there's content in my posts, and so do others. You just have to effort it to find it.

It's then the "Help me help you!" line... of laziness. This is more refusal to do anything and condemning me because of how I play the game. It's another case of "OBEY ME OR ELSE (i'm just going to be lazy and just like.. fluff push you I guess?)".

Town: JacksonViggo, Nora

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama

For now

Confused why you would pick out Flea specifically as being null (as opposed to the other 9 players implicitly null by not being in your list)?

At the time i had no impressions about others. Only those names.

Flea gave me mixed feelings then, so null.

I still find it odd I was mentioned and looking at it, it looks like a setup for later to me.

Scum reads have to come from somewhere, and I'm not fond of people picking on low hanging fruit

Who is the LHF here?

+1

I've not quoted the follow up posts but its great to have guillotine on the same wavelength (

unless its a pocket

ofc )

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Horsewoman

Cheeky naked vote on consensus SR. Have some scumpoints.

Pig and Nono's 0-context votes seem sus to me, especially when we are getting beyond RVS

Both of these two were V/LA at the time of his push

Yeah, nah. Try harder please. Both dropped a no-context vote

prior

to going V/LA, when the game was getting well beyond RVS. This is a behaviour that is scummy, so I called it out. Would it have been better to ignore it?

Btw lol, I'm loving JV and Guillotine taking Noraa to task on their push on me, before I've replied. Welcome to the

Marky Mark entourage guy

s :3

First bold, if it is a pocket, it’s a town pocket so do not worry. Unless you are wolf, then you should worry as town do pocket wolves too.

Second bold, i know what you are implying here and I love it because that thought process could only come from town.

IIoA-ish. Also I'm glad you know what you meant with the second bold, because I don't.

Horsewoman raised several red flags before i said “definitely scum”.

Do you suggest i pace myself down though?

I'm not seeing them though, and not as being called out from you... You've been on HW since the start of the day with saying she's scummy.

@mark I understand. Still believe HW is scum and until she towns up, she is not getting out of my list.

PFFT. You keep repeating that yet ur vote's on me. LOL.

You got a point. I did say my vote would go to HW if you answered my questions about Mark's shading posts.

I'm a man of my word.

VOTE: Horsewoman

You are still in my scum list though.

I freaking love Nora, she is my kinda chaos - and this to me is one of the definitions of OMGUS, called out for something and bites back.

I said that i would be judging the game based on this game's actions. So any kind of meta is irrelevant to me including people's self meta.

This is worth noting because....

Flea - I wish you'd stop using so many spoiler tags. It makes it easy to miss the content of your posts, which are pretty good.

Early posting looks like honest scum hunting.

Town for now.

Toog - I'm fine with any votes for horse.

But the early serious vote smells of bussing.

Then again maybe I'm just paranoid.

First bold, what early posts from Flea looked like scum hunting? Maybe you are seeing something I'm not.

Second bold, do you really believe there is utility for scum to bus a teammate on D1, when it's really easy to try to do anything else but that? Have you played as scum before?

I think a lot of people are seeing things you're not and there's ALWAYS utility to bus. For someone who has just thrown meta out of the window, why are you interested if someones played a game as an alignment before? That is a form of meta.

Well for one, i purposely change my meta in every game, that way noone can reference meta about me and have to solve me base on the game im playing. Two, I was extremely arrogant and irresponsible in SirCakez game, i FPS, but I'm not ready to do that again in a community where I'm new at, so, you get standard focused Guillo in this one.

"I AM UNREEEEEEAAAAAADABLEEEE!!! BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH*coughcoughsplutter*
Sadly as someone who uses a persona to play this game and avoid meta, patterns will always emerge no matter how you try and play. Oh, and self-meta is here

Sorry nornor, that means your soul reads on me aren't on me but on the person and will probably always be wrong <3

Btw, my vote is gonna go here for a bit.
VOTE: Guillotina

You're voting away from your 99% soul-read on scum!flea again? Can you explain why you're doing that and why you're voting them when I think they're fairly townie + you give no reasonings here.

Noraa town reads Flea now.

IIoA. Not only that, it's putting words in her mouth. This looks like framing to me.

I do not TR horse any more cuz this many SRs on her is making me nervous of my ability to find scum but I will argue that the case on her isnt as good as maybe everyone thinks.

Help me see it. Do me a point by point of why I might be wrong about HW.

MEEEEOOOOOOWWWW!!!

Half way through an ISO, have been distracted with a stardew game with my goblin and gremlin. Will finish later.

More fluff.

So is this, honestly. Yes it's NAI and doing nothing in and of itself, however, it's still doing something. I'm not going to explain it to you though, you're a lazy butt.

Just because you cannot see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Noraa is either scum playing dumb or a Naive Town.

Non-commital and sitting on a fence. This right here, is a fluff post. I'll do a comparison after this.

I mean I'm pretty sure horse is new *to this site* but not new to mafia in general. isn't that misleading imo but I can see where the confusion comes from and why someone might misinterpret it as her trying to pull a newb card.

She specifically said " hi, I'm new! Go easy on me"

I made an entire wall about how that was more likely to come from scum

I mean if she's new to this site, she's not familiar with site meta and stuff like that. I find it not crazy to ask for people to go easy on her.

Yeah I just wanted you all not to call me names and stuff, I dont know anyone here is the thing.

Also sorry for not posting anything substantive in aaages, couple of bad mental health days. Sadly the streak will continue as I will be unable to post anything substantive for some hours now.

I'm gonna look like an asshole, but this sounds a lot like AtE. I hope you do get better but I still suspect this slot.

Yes, yes you do. If someone says their mental health is crap you don't throw it at them as AtE to get out of something. Anyone using that as an excuse honestly deserves to be in the bin.

I myself have several conditions that affect my ability to play as much as I would like and people have simply said "No worries, catch up when you can. If you're able are you able to answer these questions for me?"

We're good folk here <3

Evening all, today has just been very mental with work, so apologies for not being on. This will be a flying catchup post until I get a chance to sit down properly (hopefully tomorrow)

UNVOTE: - I'll give Llama's replacement a chance to catch up and psot their thoughts of the game state. The slot is scummy an I don't want to let it slip off the hook, but my vote there serves no purpose atm.

On a similar note - I can see that Pig's vote is on No Elim, who is also being replaced.
- @Pig: Who would be your next choice to vote aside from no elim's slot?

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Mafia

I just don't get this post - like

why bother

stating the obvious assumption being drawn here

when we can all see

what Momrangal was trying to convey?

Also, this did feel like shading. I don't believe you are an idiot if you are playing this game so I don't believe your question was a real one. Then you state that we can all see what Momrangal was trying to convey. Who is all? Did you ask each and every one of us to come to that conclusion?

For someone doing absolutely bare minimum themselves, this is a big ask.

I don't have much of a read on that slot, so vote and see.

Nah, I'm not voting outside my scum list, but!

We can scrutinize!

@Momrangal

You scumread Horsewoman and I agree.

Who else do you scum read? Who do you town read?
And more importantly, why?

GIT IN MAH POKIT!

I also wanna point out, theres been no reads lists recently.

"Hi! I'm new to this game! Plz go ez on me"

well this actually sounds dull upon reread.
lemme try saying that again with some more sarcasm.

"Hi! I'm new to this game as in I've never played a game with this mod, this setup, and this plist all in one! Plz go ez on me"

Yeah I get why its weird. I have seen horsewoman call herself new all over the site tho(outside of the mafia forum) so ......

Now this is revealing.

Care to share games where she's done this. It would be great if you can share a game where she was town and another one where she was mafia and she did this. Because then I could treat it as a behavior pattern rather than an AI.

Dude this is my second game of MS mafia and the first is ongoing.

I'm talking about the alleged "Outside of MS games". Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Damn I wish I could stretch this well...

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Bro you talking like i was trying to hide my mafia experience (which was 72 hour day phases and really casual) but I immediately said I had experience when asked even though i easily could have pretended to be totally new as the forum i played on is now down and I didnt even use this username so nobody was catching me

Wrong, you can't say that you could have easily pretended to be totally new, when it only took two posts to catch you. Let's put it this way, you might be a seasoned player but you are a terrible liar, the problem here is, why you tried to lie to us?

this is beautiful, I think amma cry :')

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

This is a train of thought that I have seen many times that basically goes 'only mafia would care about being lynched/treated badly'. Completely wrong! Being mislynched sucks on an emotional level and it also hurts town on a game level! Town have a huge interest in not being lynched.

See this is what I'm talking about? You want us to town read you but you take posts out of context and AtE to try to get us to not push you, which makes me want to push you more. She is talking about, why would any of us would take it easy on you because you are new? Why would we believe that you are new? Why do we care that you are new or experienced? There are games for newbies here. You could have signed to one of those but you chose to sign up for a no-newbies game, which is fine! But don't expect preferential treatment.

Being myslynched sucks, but that is what towns are destined to be, some of us will have to die, so others can get info out of our deaths and solve the game. Don't take it personally, it is part of the game, don't act like it is not.

Now I'm gonna let go of your "noob" BS and work with you, help me townread you.

I will lose my mind, make it real this tiiiiime, to leave it all behind. I won't cry wolf.
Show me a sign, planets will align,
I'm gunna blow my mind. I won't, cry wolf.

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

i didn't vote for you because hardcore, ridiculous irrational tunneling usually comes from town, which is what you're doing.

Stop this! We are past that unless you want me to keep tunneling you. I asked you for reads on people, can you please provide them?

Would you kindly, obey? obey. OBEY. OBEY.

Saying "go easy on me" is expecting preferential treatment! Think about that hard.

If you stop engaging with my posts I will never townread you, i think it is in your best interest to convince me that you are town. I'm willing to move past your failed noob gimmick attempt and start over! There are many ways to find out if you are scum or not.

Look, town can lie too, there are many players here that yeet all liars no matter the reasons, I disagree. Town can lie for good reasons, for dumb reasons or just because the slot is a compulsive liar that randed town (not saying that any of these are you), I wanted to see why you tried to lie about that and see if such lie can come from a town slot.
I'm not convinced you are town. tbf.

I'm looking forward to your engagement! Bring me a pelt.

This is going beyond attacking the slot at this point.
Also, MEOW!

Oh I do have a question though, what is 'shading'? Seen people use that term like 10 times this game, no idea what it means. Is it just being sketchy/shady?

Shading is like putting someone on a bad light in bad faith. It's the act of de-valuating, gaslighting and trivializing other people.

You should read this: https://forum.mafia451.com/t/10-psychol ... -mafia/739

Disagree.
Shading is the act of throwing shade and suspicion on a slot and mocking some of the content.
Gaslighting is an abuse tactic.
Devaluing evidence and reads is standard play.
Trivialising people also shouldn't be done as it can drive people down and out. Trivialise the reads and motivations, not the people.

I think Toogeloo is scummy, I just don't know if it's scummy town or just scum. I'm looking closely there but you are right, it's hard to look when the slot is not creating content.

Marky Mark, i generally town lean, but his tone sometimes is... I don't know how to explain it other than, he is either town, or a townie scum. You know like there are scummy towns? Well there are also townie scums. My gut and my brain is fighting over on whether Mark is town or a townie scum.

Noraa, I tend to agree on that one, problem is that everything else from her is bad. Specially her sudden townread on Marky after accusing him of shading and scum reading him for it.

Flea, yah fae have this gimmicky careless approach right? Wonder if that is genuine or it is staged.

Both. Literally both. This ISO is dropping the persona aspect of me and yeah I'm still acting like an idiot

It may be genuine, it may be staged, either way it's easy to overlook the garnishes and read the player. So right now on page 19... I find nothing worrisome at all.

This tells me absolutely nothing.

Try reading o(≧∇≦o)

VOTE: Flea The Magician

You try contributing with quality content instead of fluff and smartass comments. How about that?

But you boosted your Toogs read based on a smartass comment I just want to be loved damnnit!

The thing is, DGBs post says a lot. that you're unable to put the work in and see says a lot.

Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Can you back this up with quotes.

No, follow the conversation. The game is only 19 pages long. Or ISO me.

HOW DAAAAARE YOU ASK ME, MR MITTENS, TO DO SOME WORK!

Now I'm gonna let go of your "noob" BS and work with you, help me townread you.

This pings me as somewhat LAMIST

That's because im open towning.

Debatable.

Like ultimately, when I push people I want them to respond and argue with me so that I can refine my read based on their responses

This is good to know because im the same. After all, people can fake an alignment but behavioral traits come out at a subconscious level, those cant be faked.

Good argument in favour of Meta really

"Hi! I'm new to this game! Plz go ez on me"

well this actually sounds dull upon reread.
lemme try saying that again with some more sarcasm.

"Hi! I'm new to this game as in I've never played a game with this mod, this setup, and this plist all in one! Plz go ez on me"

Yeah I get why its weird. I have seen horsewoman call herself new all over the site tho(outside of the mafia forum) so ......

@JacksonVirgo

Hey look the kitty brought us a dead spider

Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Can you back this up with quotes.

No, follow the conversation. The game is only 19 pages long. Or ISO me.

I'm not going to allow you to just shade someone for something you can't even be bothered to prove. Own your words

I dont like that word, i never intent to shade when im town. I scum hunt

Scum claim! xD

Spoiler: Conclusion!

Guillotina is scum without a doubt for me. the sheer number of contradictions, laziness and demanding behaviors lead me to lockscum this slot. There's been many posts since where he's incriminated himself by being lazy, demanding others do things while he does nothing, and requesting meta information while being anti-meta.

My intention with this ISO was to investigate and confirm a scumread, and honestly nothing can save this slot from my PoV at this time.

Spoiler: Bonus post! Fluff posting comparisons!

It may be genuine, it may be staged, either way it's easy to overlook the garnishes and read the player. So right now on page 19... I find nothing worrisome at all.

This tells me absolutely nothing.

Try reading o(≧∇≦o)

VOTE: Flea The Magician

You try contributing with quality content instead of fluff and smartass comments. How about that?

OK so, DGB has said here it has no problem reading me despite my fluffiness, and in 19 pages it's found nothing wrong with my posts.

You've obviously not read the post.

Now we come to where you've accused me of only posting fluff...

Half way through an ISO, have been distracted with a stardew game with my goblin and gremlin. Will finish later.

More fluff.

This isn't fluff. Fluff doesn't achieve anything, this says I'm doing something and have been distracted by my kids needing me. Yeah we played Stardew, I take mental health seriously.

Has No Elim posted at all?

This is both fluff and laziness, you're aware of the tools available to see if no elim had posted and you didn't use them, instead opting to ask someone else to do your work for you and looking like you're doing something.

I'm quoting this so I can come back to it once I've finished catching up, as holy fuck this is big.