PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Double the Trouble]

I think Mastina might have a good point about Toog here.
They seem mostly like a sleeper cell of scum hiding out until their master FL activates them to terrorize the general populace.

- Norwee

[Polar Bear Express]

this game would be better if the town didnt know which stump was town and which stump was scum

You know, that's not actually a bad idea. A variant on this game mode where the rules are much the same, where the town knows who the treestumps are, know one is town and the other is scum, the scum one drafted a hand-picked scumteam and the town one also did some drafting, but the town doesn't know which stump is which.

It'd become really obvious eventually, but that mechanic is genuinely an interesting one.

Msybe that in part explains my lack of motivation, well I was highly motivated after Bell flip but when the masons took over and attempted to control the game, I stopped feeling like I had any agency at all. I wonder how many others feel like that?

Cry me a river.

- Norwee

Thanks Norwee, I knew I could count on you to see reason.

[Double the Trouble]

You don’t get it. If the masonry wants me dead or part of it, why shouldn’t scum pile on? Or let scum do nothing while the masonry doles out misrlims like there going out of style? Maybe it’s not obvious yet but if I were actually scum here, I’d be beyond stoked that the masonry in their infinite wisdom is pretty handing out scum miselims. So scum has basically two possible options when it comes to our slot, they can either pile on or they can sit back and do nothing while a demotivated town acts like sheeple and takes your bad direction. I can’t say whether any of this is the case for any of your other reads but I obviously know it’s the case for us.

well you see, if they do that, then thats okay, because if you flip town, then that makes them look bad and if the players we want to flip flip town, then that makes them look bad

[Double the Trouble]

I think Mastina might have a good point about Toog here.
They seem mostly like a sleeper cell of scum hiding out until their master FL activates them to terrorize the general populace.

- Norwee

oh no mastina what r u doing T_T

[mastina]

- I don't see why this player gets drafted like ever. Why would you want to draft this player?

Because in spite of how many players scumread him in games, often regardless of his alignment, he is almost never eliminated, regardless of his alignment.

This fits with Flavor Leaf's fundamental modus operandi as scum, in the one area FL and I share overlap in mafia philosophy. (He and I are polar opposites in most ways/areas, but in this one area, I am forced to admit, he and I agree.) Which is, in a sentence: "It doesn't matter how obvscum you are if the town doesn't eliminate you." Which is to say, a player can be completely and totally obvscum and still be a good pick for a scumteam if the town, in spite of saying the player is obvscum, refuse to actually eliminate them. FL is a firm believer in that philosophy, and Toogeloo as a player is the perfect embodiment of it. He's a hard player to eliminate and players will frequently resist it, with him slipping under the radar by and large and being invisible until poe starts kicking in, where he'll always be the player near the end of the poe (by which, I mean, 2-3 players will always be higher-priority eliminations than him).

What teammates does he support?

All of them? Like, name a player who could be scum. Literally any player not conftown. I can write an explanation for Toogeloo's synergy with them. For Bell, for Spiffeh, for Dunnstral, for DEB, for PBE, for Ydrasse, heck, maybe even for Ircher (tho I admit Ircher's the one I see the least synergy with Toogeloo). And yes, even me, too.

noraa interactions from their side on D1 are more likely to come from town

This applies only if Noraa is scum imo and given I think PBE is town...

his response to Pooky introducing a PoE was more likely to come from town

Hard-disagree.

how they moved from Ircher to Battle Mage more than likely comes from town > scum

Hard-disagree.

1485 is actually really interesting positioning considering creature was kinda lhf at the time but no one really talked about it. If he was scum, I doubt he comes out with this read on the player. You could argue that his progression on creature is like weird but like idunno

Him going after Creature was blatant opportunism.

3610 is some conspiracy shit that doesn't come from scum lol

Consiracy shit is explicitly more likely to come from scum-Toog than town-Toog, so this is deadass backwards.

not knowing how mechanics works is a towntell and this is shown in the fact he doesn't know anything about the fact that FL can suggest 2 "rules"

Not knowing how mechanics work is absolutely not a towntell.

3926 is more likely to come from town than scum tbh

Not if DEB is scum and the whole interaction is scum theater with Toogaloo already knowing the legitimacy of the claims. For that matter, with Bell being scum, scum already knew the legitimacy of the claims but it is doubly so if DEB's scu,.

why does scum go out of their way to fake all not knowing how not known died?

Aside from the chance that a scum player genuinely could make that mistake (I can easily see it as the sort of mistake scumastina could genuinely make without it being fake)? If players give someone towncred for shit like this, that's incentive enough.

his response to me and ircher not caring about his noraa case probably just comes from town tbh. I'm a sucker for this kind of mentality in general because I don't believe scum show that.

You basically point out the flaw in this yourself: you're a sucker for it, that's reason enough for scum to show it.

who is this player's teammates? Like, where are they bro?

Well it's safe to say not me.
Beyond that, how about DEB and Dunnstral? The pool that contains at least one guaranteed scum?

[Double the Trouble]

Like do you not get it.
If dunn is just scum, great

the game becomes a micro that's in day 4, with 3 masons alive, one of which cannot be silenced, 1 vig, and 1 detective that for some reason is in the game, with plenty of information to work with.

If he's town and DEB is scum, great

the game becomes a micro that's in day 4 with 3 masons alive, one of which that can't be silenced, 1 vig, and plenty of information to work with.

Like the game is just over for scum lol, what can you do.
Scum has to get by with 2 more mislynches, and even if they can get those 2 more mislynches and get to F5, town is going to have a really strong solve given the people that we want to flip will have their flips become super meaningful regardless regardless of what it actually flips.

[Double the Trouble]

I could live with the solve of assuming Solstice/Ircher/Mastina/Ydrasse are all town and just eliminating from everyone outside of it until all scum r dead.

- Norwee

[Polar Bear Express]

You don’t get it. If the masonry wants me dead or part of it, why shouldn’t scum pile on? Or let scum do nothing while the masonry doles out misrlims like there going out of style? Maybe it’s not obvious yet but if I were actually scum here, I’d be beyond stoked that the masonry in their infinite wisdom is pretty handing out scum miselims. So scum has basically two possible options when it comes to our slot, they can either pile on or they can sit back and do nothing while a demotivated town acts like sheeple and takes your bad direction. I can’t say whether any of this is the case for any of your other reads but I obviously know it’s the case for us.

well you see, if they do that, then thats okay, because if you flip town, then that makes them look bad and if the players we want to flip flip town, then that makes them look bad

You guys controlling the game is the main reason it sucks so bad now ftr. It was actually really fun and exciting after we had our first scumflip then you guys essentially ruined it.

[Double the Trouble]

Oh no. Masons controlling the game. Let me complain about it and shade them so hard that maybe my scum team won’t get completely destroyed. That’s way easier than solving when nobody cares about my Ydrasse read.

- Norwee

[Double the Trouble]

You don’t get it. If the masonry wants me dead or part of it, why shouldn’t scum pile on? Or let scum do nothing while the masonry doles out misrlims like there going out of style? Maybe it’s not obvious yet but if I were actually scum here, I’d be beyond stoked that the masonry in their infinite wisdom is pretty handing out scum miselims. So scum has basically two possible options when it comes to our slot, they can either pile on or they can sit back and do nothing while a demotivated town acts like sheeple and takes your bad direction. I can’t say whether any of this is the case for any of your other reads but I obviously know it’s the case for us.

well you see, if they do that, then thats okay, because if you flip town, then that makes them look bad and if the players we want to flip flip town, then that makes them look bad

You guys controlling the game is the main reason it sucks so bad now ftr. It was actually really fun and exciting after we had our first scumflip then you guys essentially ruined it.

The game was over when Bell flipped scum.

[Polar Bear Express]

Oh no. Masons controlling the game. Let me complain about it and shade them so hard that maybe my scum team won’t get completely destroyed. That’s way easier than solving when nobody cares about my Ydrasse read.

- Norwee

Thsnks for the credit but you’re the one who’s helping scum here not me bro but sure keep telling yourself that.

[Polar Bear Express]

You don’t get it. If the masonry wants me dead or part of it, why shouldn’t scum pile on? Or let scum do nothing while the masonry doles out misrlims like there going out of style? Maybe it’s not obvious yet but if I were actually scum here, I’d be beyond stoked that the masonry in their infinite wisdom is pretty handing out scum miselims. So scum has basically two possible options when it comes to our slot, they can either pile on or they can sit back and do nothing while a demotivated town acts like sheeple and takes your bad direction. I can’t say whether any of this is the case for any of your other reads but I obviously know it’s the case for us.

well you see, if they do that, then thats okay, because if you flip town, then that makes them look bad and if the players we want to flip flip town, then that makes them look bad

You guys controlling the game is the main reason it sucks so bad now ftr. It was actually really fun and exciting after we had our first scumflip then you guys essentially ruined it.

The game was over when Bell flipped scum.

You mean the game actually BEGAN when Bell flipped scum.

[Double the Trouble]

You don’t get it. If the masonry wants me dead or part of it, why shouldn’t scum pile on? Or let scum do nothing while the masonry doles out misrlims like there going out of style? Maybe it’s not obvious yet but if I were actually scum here, I’d be beyond stoked that the masonry in their infinite wisdom is pretty handing out scum miselims. So scum has basically two possible options when it comes to our slot, they can either pile on or they can sit back and do nothing while a demotivated town acts like sheeple and takes your bad direction. I can’t say whether any of this is the case for any of your other reads but I obviously know it’s the case for us.

well you see, if they do that, then thats okay, because if you flip town, then that makes them look bad and if the players we want to flip flip town, then that makes them look bad

You guys controlling the game is the main reason it sucks so bad now ftr. It was actually really fun and exciting after we had our first scumflip then you guys essentially ruined it.

The game was over when Bell flipped scum.

You mean the game actually BEGAN when Bell flipped scum.

no its literally just over.
there's no game to play given the abundance of information that was created during days 1 and 2.

[Double the Trouble]

like the puzzle has been solved.

[Double the Trouble]

I just don’t get ur random AtE.
We’re very close to winning.
And instead of helping out with the final stages of the solve you just whine about how we’re shutting you down, when you’re literally in the PoE.
If we’re wrong then help us get there, none of this Bell!AtE garbage.

- Norwee

[mastina]

There isn't a doubt in my mind FL would consider her as a draft pick.

Oh absolutely, much to my chagrin. Our styles are diametrically opposed, with them being basically polar opposites, but that absolute playstyle clash can be an asset, since the disagreement can lead to a divergence in both of our normal scum strategies due to the other's influence. FL's got an addiction to high-risk plays that have medium-to-high reward; I am the poster child for low-to-no-risk plays that have medium-to-high reward. We kill different players, hunt for PRs and give a threat level to them differently, our dayplay is polar opposites, I never fakeclaim whereas FL cannot resist the urge to make some outlandish fakeclaim and usually stage a whole team of fakeclaims with 2-3 players on the scumteam having claims that either confirm each other (if FL is going for a perfect win) or contradict each other (if FL is going for a bus-then-win--notably, this is precisely why Bell claiming detective and DEB claiming a guilty on Dunn is right up the alleyway of FL's scum strategies as it is right in his modus operandi for scum to counterclaim scum and claim a guilty on scum to prop them up for the endgame).

Plus, while for the last two years, I have been ridiculously obviously scum due to my inability to effort as scum with me being transparently obviously scum in literally all of my scumgames during that period, my most recent scumgame notably lacked that trait. And while I loathe being scum and find hard-efforting to be too tedious and not worth it, the fact that my last scumgame was doing so is proof that I could be this game.

I'd love to say I would never be picked by FL, but I absolutely could be. But whether through Titus snatching me up or FL simply choosing four other players, he just didn't get me. I would say, however, that I feel I probably

was

a high-priority pick for Titus. Regardless of the players FL picked for his scumteam, Titus knows that I have meta on a fair number of slots this game and would expect me to have a reasonable gauge on them. She knows that I am really really really damn good at poe-solving, that I stick hard to my hard-townreads and very very rarely get locktown-top-tier-townreads on scum (and in the rare instances that I do, that I often correctly boot them out of that tier when the need arises to reevaluate my reads). Titus knows that I radiate an aura as town, that I hate being scum, that I ooze towniness as town and can work well with the town in just about any situation, that I am a reasonable, fairly logical player, who is also mechanically gifted at resolving game mechanics and fairly knowledgeable at the game.

These are traits FL to some extent also tends to disregard. He's aware of them in me, so could plausibly want me on his team to deny them from the town, but he also consistently downplays them and tries to discredit them and tries to make these skills look less valuable than they are in our games, regardless of his alignment. Given how he will discredit me even when he is town, these are traits that I don't think he would see me as a threat for, but I admit that he could, privately, hold me in higher esteem than he publicly does so that he could see them as a threat.

I knew I wouldn't be picked as a mason by Pooky (Pooky simply wouldn't be familiar enough with me to think I was a good mason), but picked by Titus was fully plausible if not probable. FL could've had me as a candidate, but whether through deciding on someone else or having me snatched away, he just didn't end up with me on his team.

[Double the Trouble]

@Mastina

Solstice/Ircher/Ydrasse
Do you think any of the above slots are likely to flip scum?

- Norwee

[Polar Bear Express]

I just don’t get ur random AtE.
We’re very close to winning.
And instead of helping out with the final stages of the solve you just whine about how we’re shutting you down, when you’re literally in the PoE.
If we’re wrong then help us get there, none of this Bell!AtE garbage.

- Norwee

The obvious difference is that you actually had valid reasons to scumread Bell.

[mastina]

FL picked Toogeloo to slip through the radar, be written off and ignored, and be invisible, yet he's anything but that? And yet he can be elimination bait but he's not?
Are you high?

No?
The statements aren't mutually exclusive.
Toogeloo, this game, was widely unseen by most players on D1 and to a lesser extent, D2.
Toogeloo was written off on D1--this is undeniably true.
Toogeloo was largely invisible on D1--this is undeniably true.

Toogeloo is, frequently, elimination bait, once people actually notice him. This requires them to have seen through his magical cloak of invisibility, which often happens around the D2-D3 range, maybe D4. But in spite of his status as largely ignored until he becomes elimination bait, he's ridiculously hard to eliminate and almost never actually IS.

The traits of {is elimination bait, is hard to eliminate, is usually invisible} are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they build upon each other, strengthening themselves. Toogeloo's strength is that he is all three. He is largely under the radar most of the time. When attention is put on him, it becomes clear that there's a lot of suspicion on him, making him a juicy elimination...but

in spite of that

, he ends up somehow almost never actually being eliminated, or if he is, being eliminated literally DAYS after he was put in the spotlight.

Scum that stay under the radar earlier in the game, are exposed in the mid-game, but are not eliminated until the lategame if they are eliminated at all, are precisely the sort of scum that are right up FL's alley. (I am forced to acknowledge that scumastina is exactly what I am describing; when I am scum I am typically under the radar early and when exposed survive surprisingly long, buuuuuut. The very traits that make me a viable pick for FL are exactly the traits that Toog himself has.)

[Polar Bear Express]

I of Dunn/DEB, Toog, Ydrasse and not sure right now on anyone else. Fyi, I majorly suck at larges and wrongly townread most of the scum in that game. I signed up for this because I liked the unique theme but I only stopped being useless in Death Curse after two scum died and the obvious difference was we had someone with really good reads like Queen Mush calling the shots in that.

[mastina]

oh no mastina what r u doing T_T

Being my usual logical and reasonable self who's innately charismatic by the sheer fact that what I say makes sense and resonates with others.

(Granted, I'd be the first to admit: what I say making sense and resonating doesn't mean it's actually accurate, I can be wrong on things that make sense and resonate with others as displayed even earlier in this game with Battle Mage, but like. This is just what I do. There's a damn good reason why one of the traits I highly value in other players is them addressing me on the points that make sense and resonate with others, and then point out the legitimate genuine

flaws

in them, without misrepping them. If someone is capable of, without presenting my point as something it isn't, actually addressing my actual argument and pointing out actual flaws in it, that

sticks

and does make me seriously, genuinely, reevaluate. Often it takes some engagement where I will engage the player on their addressing of my point and explore the avenues of it, but there's a damn good reason why when Ircher and Solstice both did this, they both won my trust. Working with me rather trying to blanket-discredit me is something that I value very highly.)

[mastina]

I could live with the solve of assuming Solstice/Ircher/Mastina/Ydrasse are all town and just eliminating from everyone outside of it until all scum r dead.
- Norwee

I mean, mathematically if this is indeed done.

I do actually think it works out to be a town win.

12 alive, with 3 masons + those 4 = 7/12.
Eliminate one of the 5/12, then scum nightkill.
Even lacking a vig, that's 6/10 the next day. Eliminate one of the 4/10, then scum nightkill.
Even lacking a vig, that's 5/8 the next day. Eliminate one of the 3/8, then scum nightkill.
Even lacking a vig, that's 4/6 the next day. Eliminate one of the 2/6, then scum nightkill.
Even lacking a vig, that's 3/4 the next day. And even IF scum got off a supersaint, that'd be 2/3 the next day. Either way, scum lose.

The only way town would lose is if there's scum in Ircher/Solstice/Ydrasse.

And when it comes to those three.

I really really want to trust pichu on Ydrasse being town...so I do.

And while I admit bias in it, yes, I do townread both Ircher and Solstice for just the whole wide blanket of their play on every level.

[Double the Trouble]

people were planting the seeds that would set up toogeloo to be elimination bait on days 1 and 2.
I know spiffeh planted a few of those seeds.
noraa planted them.

and naturally when the whole masonry gets outed and people realize that creature isn't scum and they're allowed to re-align their reads, then ofc people are going to put that slot back on their radar.

Like what ur saying starts to make sense but I can't see the pieces that are supporting that piece and thats because I don't think they actually exist.
You could argue dunn is supporting it by voting dunn but no one cares about dunn's reads at this stage of the game tbh. No one is going to care when dunn flips scum. People are still going to want to kill him, and even more so if polar bears flips town. Polar Bears flipping scum is the only slot I can see bussing toogeloo and would actually give him cred, but people aren't going to care about this cred. If Polar Bears flips scum but Spiffeh flips town by the time its F7 or F5, people aren't going to know where the fuck to go, and they're going to eliminate toogeloo.

Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.
I lost doing it in Ali vs Titus where I drafted a MariaR + Dunnstral hydra, Reasonably Rational, Bitmap, and AaronFrost.

But its also kinda just impossible to talk you out of a tunnel which is very relatable tbh.

[Double the Trouble]

people were planting the seeds that would set up toogeloo to be elimination bait on days 1 and 2.
I know spiffeh planted a few of those seeds.
noraa planted them.

and naturally when the whole masonry gets outed and people realize that creature isn't scum and they're allowed to re-align their reads, then ofc people are going to put that slot back on their radar.

Like what ur saying starts to make sense but I can't see the pieces that are supporting that piece and thats because I don't think they actually exist.
You could argue dunn is supporting it by voting dunn but no one cares about dunn's reads at this stage of the game tbh. No one is going to care when dunn flips scum. People are still going to want to kill him, and even more so if polar bears flips town. Polar Bears flipping scum is the only slot I can see bussing toogeloo and would actually give him cred, but people aren't going to care about this cred. If Polar Bears flips scum but Spiffeh flips town by the time its F7 or F5, people aren't going to know where the fuck to go, and they're going to eliminate toogeloo.

Drafting people who stay under the radar is a losing strategy in this setup.
I lost doing it in Ali vs Titus where I drafted a MariaR + Dunnstral hydra, Reasonably Rational, Bitmap, and AaronFrost.

But its also kinda just impossible to talk you out of a tunnel which is very relatable tbh.

[Double the Trouble]

(Granted, I'd be the first to admit: what I say making sense and resonating doesn't mean it's actually accurate, I can be wrong on things that make sense and resonate with others as displayed even earlier in this game with Battle Mage, but like. This is just what I do. There's a damn good reason why one of the traits I highly value in other players is them addressing me on the points that make sense and resonate with others, and then point out the legitimate genuine flaws in them, without misrepping them. If someone is capable of, without presenting my point as something it isn't, actually addressing my actual argument and pointing out actual flaws in it, that sticks and does make me seriously, genuinely, reevaluate. Often it takes some engagement where I will engage the player on their addressing of my point and explore the avenues of it, but there's a damn good reason why when Ircher and Solstice both did this, they both won my trust. Working with me rather trying to blanket-discredit me is something that I value very highly.)

ig i'm just terrible at this