PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Spiffeh]

@mod V/LA until 12/27 for the holidays

[Solstice]

[Toog is a weird case cause i almost feel like they never flip scum but it's a bit difficult to explain.]

[I think Toog is scummy, but they have posts that just surprise me I think. The case on Polarbears is obviously not good, and it's totally possible they just do all this "Vig shoot me" and "I'll eat the supersaint" stuff knowing fully well neither of those will ever happen. But even then..]

What do you think of DEB v Dunn?

I think the plan to lynch Deb is fine. I think I can hammer, and if DEB is legit, the vig can shoot Dunn. If scum have a SuperSaint and it's DEB, it's better I be the one that hammers.

I'd probably say DEB is more likely town than Dunn. I can't imagine a game where one scum counter claims another scum and then suicides either another scum buddy or himself the next day with a real or fake scan.

[This is completely wild to me -- although i dont know in which direction. Toog, why'd you want to eliminate DEB first? Or more specifically, what was going through your mind when you made these? Ircher pointed out these two posts and you never responded, so im curious]

~Morning

[MURDERCAT]

[it's not Polarbears or Ydrasse]

[right now, I think it's Dr Easy + Spiffeh + Mastina/Ircher/Toog]

~Morning

Pick one please

[mastina]

Everyone list the 3 people you think are scum please

{DEB, Toogeloo} (lockscum) and {Spiffeh} (poe as most likely third scum).

Speaking of which:
VOTE: Toogaloo.
We're eliminating DEB today, but since I'm going to wait for the masons' permission before voting DEB, no harm in placing my vote here until they permit me to.

[Toogeloo]

The fact that neither I or DEB was eliminated lat night probably signifies the vig only had one shot I'm guessing.

I'd almost rather be eliminated ahead of DEB so that you guys have more time to figure out the other two scum. DEB is a lock, and if for some reason the vig can still shoot but opted not to, then he can still be shot tonight.

But I am kind of sick of everyone saying I'm scum, and no one willing to consider deep wolf options, and the sooner I'm eliminated, the faster that happens.

mastina putting me as lockscum needs to explain why it's a lock and not just a read, because she's very, very wrong.

[Toogeloo]

It's also kind of important everyone convey right now their pick for scum in the event I flip town. I'm the current easy target for the scum team to get a miselim on, but someone else is right above me that the scum are eyeballing to take out as well. Be on your toes.

[Toogeloo]

Toog, why'd you want to eliminate DEB first?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, there was discussion of lynching DEB ahead of Dunn and I was weighing my opinion on that. That's what I thought Double Trouble was asking.

I'd also like to point out that if I were scum, there's no chance in hell I elim DT ahead of another Mason when DT is quite literally the only player to express that they think I'm town.

[Solstice]

It's also kind of important everyone convey right now their pick for scum in the event I flip town. I'm the current easy target for the scum team to get a miselim on, but someone else is right above me that the scum are eyeballing to take out as well. Be on your toes.

[Who

is

scum, Toog?]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I'd also like to point out that if I were scum, there's no chance in hell I elim DT ahead of another Mason when DT is quite literally the only player to express that they think I'm town.

[DT was always the mason scum was gonna kill first, i don't think it matters if they townread you and you're scum. That'd actually look bad on them to leave DT alive for that, really]

~Morning

[Toogeloo]

tbh if we are doing deb I would probably want dunn to hammer that

This was the post my response was to.

---

My scum reads are two of mastina/PBE/Ydrasse.

Spiffeh feels like their slot might be right behind me in the pecking order, which worries me a bit. I like Spiffeh from Day 1 and 2, but he's been less of a read after the mass claim.

Ircher is still mostly null.

Solstice is town.

[Toogeloo]

What do you hate about my two posts, Solstice?

I was advocating that DEB lynch was fine first, despite my town read on DEB due to counter claims and suicides. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to endorse the Dunn lynch as scum?

[mastina]

mastina putting me as lockscum needs to explain why it's a lock and not just a read, because she's very, very wrong.

Because I've thought your play has been scum for almost the entire game and I've gone into explaining why I felt that way, why I felt you were picked as scum, why this is your scumplay, and literally all of the defense of your slot is "but this one thing Toog did looks like it doesn't fit my mental picture of what scum would do even though it's something scum could very easily do".

[Toogeloo]

I still intend on voting at L-2 on DEB, unvoting, and then hammering.

I am hoping that he's SS because I literally need to die today as the best thing I can offer town.


PEdit:. That's a read, none of that makes me lockscum.

[Solstice]

What do you hate about my two posts, Solstice?

I was advocating that DEB lynch was fine first, despite my town read on DEB due to counter claims and suicides. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to endorse the Dunn lynch as scum?

[Hm? I did figure out why it looked like you were contradicting yourself but i asked the question anyway cause idk. I see in the context that you thinking DEB is more town but also being alright with DEB being eliminated first is not contradictory.]

[And i don't know, is that better for you to do as scum? Personally i dont really think your opinion would be a huge deciding factor in either wagon, so you would be free to say whichever one you think looks better.]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[I did actually like Spiffeh's read on Creature though, hrmm]

Spoiler: Posts like these and so on

If Creature's town I will reevaluate

I think Creature has a phenomenal shot at flipping scum

If you disagree than you can explain why, but I'm not going to let go of one of the few scum reads I feel decently about on the off chance that they could be a mason (which I doubt btw)

I find it funny that I'm the one getting shit for avoiding acknowledging Bell (which is patently untrue I might add!)

When Creature, the scummiest slot in the game, has been completely absent ever since the heat got off of him

If Creature outlasts me in this game I'm probably gonna take a LONG break from mafia after this

Creature if you were to do anything literally remotely town whatsoever I'd be willing to reevaluate

But I don't have a ton of reads south of null right now so you dying is still my highest priority sorry

Other than Creature I'm kind of at a loss for who the other scum are?

Bell's not really one I want to consider any further today, I feel like if Bell were scum he would come up with a more useful thing to claim to ensure he survives the day? Especially with Flavor Leaf in his corner

I'm worried I wrote a few players off too early on Day 1 (Dunnstral most notably) and should probably reread but that sounds like a lot rn

Creature what makes you think that I am more likely to be scum that's wrong rather than town that's wrong?

[That was pretty well done if faked. I also like the locktown on Polarbears]

[pedit: In a little while, don't worry. i might even sub Spiffeh out. who knows where i'm going with this! ..i didn't review during the night]

[What it feels like to me so far is that the solve is not Spiffeh/Toog.]

[My town!Toog feelings are starting to dwindle actually. I have been looking long and hard at these two's ISOs. I felt like i had less for Spiffeh earlier, but actually, think that's probably wrong]

K, I'm detective.
N1 I investigated Toog who killed no one.
Good job everyone.
Good job.

This is, at the very least: a plausible claim with a plausible target.

What, am I a rookie? Is Bell a Rookie?

You telling me that I would literally take any action at all on N1 as scum after claiming VT? Watchers and Trackers would keep me from ever taking an action after a post 1 VT claim let alone worrying about someone specifically checking I did the kill. Even more so with the fact that we know that scum can multitask.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mastina

I'm kind of working on this mastina, polar bear scum team at the moment.

[This is sorta over-the-top. and no, they never really get a mastina-polarbear thingy going.]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

I'd rather this than Bell.

Spoiler: Toog on Bell

Bell might be scum too, but my vote there is on faith.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

I'd rather this than Bell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bell

THUNDERNUKE!
(-1 I believe)

unvote please, I want to hear from pooky

Pookstar says, THUNDERNUKE.

It would be better if was the hammer and could kill the guy who says I didn't kill anyone though.

I am serious it is almost worthy flashwagoning Toogeloo for that post alone

I double dog dare ya.

Bell, walk me through your reasoning of picking me to scan last night. I claimed VT in my very first post, so if I were scum, surely of all nights to NOT perform a Night Kill it would have been N1. In your wisest of choices, what made you pick me?

Faith?

Town reads pushing your wagon. Other than your claim, I've not had much better than a bill read on you.

The only scenario where Bell makes the claim as scum that I see here is if scum actually do know the town PRs and was attempting to get the real Detective claim out. If scum know all of town's PRs though, that's kind of fucked up.

Spoiler: Spiffeh on Bell

I still think it's unlikely Bell flips scum lol

What does that do to your preflip associatives guys?

If Bell is claiming Tracker and DEB is claiming regular old cop then this is PERFECTLY REASONABLE PAIR OF INVESTIGATIVES ESPECIALLY WHEN WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH SCUM POWER THERE IS

I don't know why the fuck DEB would claim here without a guilty unless he is also a Tracker

I do think DEB's counterclaim (even though it's not really a counter claim) is super town though? There's no reason to put yourself out there as scum, especially since it seems like Bell was already going down for anyway?

As much as I'm spiteful at everyone scum reading me for "aVoIdInG tHe BeLl WaGoN" even though I have been obviously town throughout the game

Bell is probably scum and should be the vote for today

[I am actually stupid, Spiffeh's approach to the Bell v. Creature wagons is more organic looking to be honest]

I do think DEB's counterclaim (even though it's not really a counter claim) is super town though? There's no reason to put yourself out there as scum, especially since it seems like Bell was already going down for anyway?

The only scenario where Bell makes the claim as scum that I see here is if scum actually do know the town PRs and was attempting to get the real Detective claim out. If scum know all of town's PRs though, that's kind of fucked up.

[It's kind of a little detail, but Toog thought Bell was more likely town, and the only way he isn't town is if scum knew there was a real town detective and wanted to get them. So they're implying that in a Bell!scum world, then Dr Easy would be town, but isn't outright going there just yet. Whereas Spiffeh came to the outright conclusion that Dr Easy was just town from the claim, which i guess looks a lot better to me. Toog's options for reading Dr Easy in the future are a lot less in stone whereas Spiffeh is making a hard call that his buddy is town there]

The conundrum here is that Bell wim while DEB only countered and took off.

From my PoV, there are two clashing ideas.

1. Both are Detective. If it's a weak role, then it might be possible to have two in a power-lite town. With a roaming doc and two Cats that I know of, that is power-lite so far. But again it depends on the power of the Detective scan. Can it find a killer days afterwards, or just that night only? I'd like both Bell and DEB to clarify this.

2. Scum know town's PRs, which I think would be heinous. People seem to think that Leaf helped design town's power somehow, but no one seems to elaborate on where they know this from, and all I've seen is scum pick roles they want and mods balance town around that. In this case, scum want the Detective out, so Bell is either scum and was hoping to get DEB to claim, or DEB was planning to take claim Detective to eventually out the other Detective. Bell would be more likely scum than DEB in this scenario.

[Toog is never going to have to take a stance against both their partners as long as they use this logic]

Spoiler: Spiffeh on Detective claims

I learned that DEB is literally counterclaiming the same exact role lol

I don't know where I got tracker/cop from

I would have for sure known all of that stuff beforehand if I were scum though!

I think part of my confusion is that I don't even know what a "Detective" is

I thought detective was another term for the general 'investigative' role

don't lol @ me pichu it's true

I don't think I've ever encountered a Detective before

[mmmmmmmmm I want to believe this very badly]

Spoiler: Toog on mastina

I feel like scum!mastina is more likely to lurk this Day out given her hard push on BM yesterday

And the Bell-DEB fiasco is a get out of jail free card for her

You can't disappear after high activity day 1 leading to a mislynch. She's remained active but allowed her reads to ebb and flow with the current game state. One mislynch on Day 1 that she headlines, and her town reads are becoming scum reads because she can read the room and see what people want.

Look at your comment and look at what she is doing, and it actually matches up. She is actively lurking and letting the Bell/DEB thing happen, just like you think scum!mastina would.

It's actively lurking. Posting enough that she keeps a presence, but her posts amount to no push and actually acquiesce to the reads if the vocal majority while still looking like her own. She prepping for Day 3 already.

[This is stuff that sounds good at face value but Toog hasn't really shown to be true]

[Span of posts where Toog is confused about Vigilante/supersaint/vengeful stuff is sort of good-looking but really is not as good as Spiffeh's confusion towards the Tracker/Detective claims. like misunderstanding what Dr Easy and Bell were doing, I feel, would be tricky to fake. Definitely harder than feigning confusion over what a supersaint enabler does and what happened on N1 (which scum wouldn't know by default, i suppose. Their team would tell them it was a vig, but still).]

[obviously i shouldn't give towncred for begging to be vigged and taking the supersaint and so on, *especially* considering scum!Toog probably knows neither of those will happen. I bet FL knew the vig didn't have any shots left by looking at his team's power.]

[I want to hear more about Toog's Polarbears/mastina reads consider they're their strongest ones. I don't think they've mentioned mastina in a while so is that not a thing anymore ?]

[if I can get this soulread on Spiffeh correct I think I'm probably getting a lot closer to the solve, cause Ircher placed Toog in a spot in his reads that is very believable for that team.]



[---------- JUST READ BELOW , IT'S THE ONLY THING I REALLY NEED FEEDBACK ON --------]

I'm out of time, so I'll try to do more later. Noraa has been my #1 scum pick for a while, and I am going to attempt to paint the picture as to why.

Well, if no one's going to read it, it'll save me from finishing it.

I'll just opt for always being a hammer vote for SSfear.

[

@Toooooog

, you never got to the part where you showed us why you feel Noraa is scum, though. You more or less started with the conclusion they are scum and combed their ISO from there -- this is evident by how you say "scum theater?" and stuff like that a bunch while going through. You clearly already started with having her in a bad light]

[You don't gotta go thru their ISO bit by bit, i guarantee most of that will be useless. I just want to know why this has been your most consistent SR. You admitted it didn't have much substance early on, but it stayed your favourite on D2, probably bolstered by Murderkitty's case. But why do *you* think they're scum? i need help getting there, cause I do not think they are scum]

~Morning

[Solstice]

[oh, by the way, what's your opinion on rule of threes, Toog?]

~Morning

[Toogeloo]

I think FOURS is more consistent in finding scum. THREES wasn't the rule I was aware of. It's always been FOURS.

I struggle with actually making cases on people, as evident by my attempt to show ISO analysis from PBE. I try to show what I see, and why I don't like it, but my solves always revolve around player motivations and gut.

PBE's posting is a lot of fluff and noise, buddying, and very light on engaging in a way that might turn the majority against them. In many of the big areas where they are pushing reads, they are usually doing it in tandem with another player.

Seems too safe too me.

---

I struggle to articulate my mastina read, and it's almost entirely born out of OMGUS, but the biggest reason I dislike the slot is the very large tonal shift in playstyle from very aggressive Day 1 to more reserved every day afterwards. She was more savage and unrelenting on BM, but felt like she was trying to assuage her reads into a conformed manner since Pichu was currently dominating Day 2. Very much like she was observing how the day was going down and trying to fit that narrative more.

---

Again, I struggle with conveying my thoughts, and a lot of times I post very unfiltered brain spew into my posts. What I'm thinking, when I'm thinking it.

[Solstice]

[If you wanted to sacrifice him this is probably how you'd do it.
~Morning

I mean.
DEB-scum sacrificing himself to take out someone who was probably going down today or tomorrow anyway?
Not impossible, although obviously by necessity what happened if Dunn flips town here.

More likely is either DEB town with a genuine guilty or DEB scum faking a guilty on a scumbuddy. Either way, Dunnstral's a pretty sure bet at being scum.

[I think mastina going back on calling Bell and Dr Easy SvS temporarily as a response to Dr Easy's guilty yesterday is more likely town.. insistence on Creature scum also more likely town, still like her D1, and Misty believes mastina is town too. im gonna keep thinking mastina is not a deepwolf here]

I quite liked the Kindred and Vayne stories in particular. (I liked the flirting with Vayne which caused her to go all Tsundere.)

[WOAH those were my only two S+'s]

~Morning

[Solstice]

I think FOURS is more consistent in finding scum. THREES wasn't the rule I was aware of. It's always been FOURS.

I struggle with actually making cases on people, as evident by my attempt to show ISO analysis from PBE. I try to show what I see, and why I don't like it, but my solves always revolve around player motivations and gut.

PBE's posting is a lot of fluff and noise, buddying, and very light on engaging in a way that might turn the majority against them. In many of the big areas where they are pushing reads, they are usually doing it in tandem with another player.

Seems too safe too me.

---

I struggle to articulate my mastina read, and it's almost entirely born out of OMGUS, but the biggest reason I dislike the slot is the very large tonal shift in playstyle from very aggressive Day 1 to more reserved every day afterwards. She was more savage and unrelenting on BM, but felt like she was trying to assuage her reads into a conformed manner since Pichu was currently dominating Day 2. Very much like she was observing how the day was going down and trying to fit that narrative more.

---

Again, I struggle with conveying my thoughts, and a lot of times I post very unfiltered brain spew into my posts. What I'm thinking, when I'm thinking it.

[Ohh that explains the rule of fours you mentioned in the Noraa analysis, then.]

[Crazy fluff and noise from Polarbears is just not a scum-indicative thing for them, Noraa especially. You devoted so much time to pointing that out -- and it's just not scummy for them. I could show you sections of Noraa's other games if you like.]

[Tbh i would say blatant buddying is also more or less what I expect from them, but I would definitely look at it if you pointed out major examples of where Polarbears seem to do that.]

[Mastina has been decently aggressive towards Creature, and now you, wouldn't you say? I am interested in what the big distinction you're noticing between her attitude towards BM and you two is. and I guess why you think that shift is inherently scummy. I would take it down a notch after hard tunneling a townie on the first day -- and i don't really see the big shift you're seeing, I suppose.]

[Like she had BM as lockscum, then Creature as lockscum, and then you. those three reads are very unmoving. She had DEB!scum a little bit before it was cool, too. Your characterization makes it sound like her D1 is savage aggressiveness, whereas later on she was more trying to conform to what everyone else says and be lurkish. And granted, she came around to Bell being scum after a little bit of hesitation, but that certainly wasn't unique to mastina and it didnt automatically make her into a sheep from there on either. its possible I'm just bad at finding what it is you're seeing though]

~Morning

[Creature]

VOTE: DEB

[Dr Easy Bake]

Hey, you win some, you lose some. I must have been fucked with last night, redirected without my knowledge.
Well barring any misdirection, last night I swear to you I targeted the Electric Toogeloo, and got a guilty.
It’s time once again for you to pick up your swords and fight alongside me!
VOTE: The Electric Toogeloo

[Blade Dancer]

Spiffeh VLA noted.

Everyone is considered VLA today.

Merry Christmas! I hope you have enjoyed the game thus far.

[Noraa]

Merry Christmas!!!!

Gloria and I don't really agree on much besides DEB!scum.
We've agreed that she'll be the one providing reads for now and I'll just be on the lookout and voice my opinions to her. By request, this thread can also get them.

-nornor

[Polar Bear Express]

Merry Christmas!!!!

Gloria and I don't really agree on much besides DEB!scum.
We've agreed that she'll be the one providing reads for now and I'll just be on the lookout and voice my opinions to her. By request, this thread can also get them.

-nornor

ahhhhhh shittttt

[Polar Bear Express]

Oh oh wait my gif.