PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

[Polar Bear Express]

Merry Christmas!!!!

Gloria and I don't really agree on much besides DEB!scum.
We've agreed that she'll be the one providing reads for now and I'll just be on the lookout and voice my opinions to her. By request, this thread can also get them.

-nornor

I would think unless there’s a redirector in the setup or something, he’d have to be.

[Creature]

Tbh if there's a redirector in this setup then this game has treaded into the unfun territory and I abstain from all responsibility to this game.

[Ydrasse]

methinks there isn’t a redirector

[Creature]

As always I'd rather believe the setup designer has some self-respect.

[Ydrasse]

there is a roleblocker though *strained smile* or something like rolestopper/maf doc/bp

[MURDERCAT]

If the vig has been RB'd twice in a row or is 1 shot, just claim.

[Ircher]

Merry Christmas!

I don't think this setup has enough power for a redirector to be likely. 4 scum vs 13 town requires significantly more power than 3 scum do in a mini normal.

[Ircher]

I agree--vig should probably claim.

[Ydrasse]

well i AM gated but not 1-shot

[Ydrasse]

deb was supposed to die and yet... nothing

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

well i guess we take volunteers on who wants to hammer deb then

[MURDERCAT]

Yeah ok figured as much. So you are out to scum then

[Ydrasse]

my assumption is that if they have a redirector, uh, a mason would have died last night

[Ydrasse]

they KNEW

[Ircher]

Everyone list the 3 people you think are scum please

Spiffeh and Dr Easy Bake almost certainly. Spiffeh is admittedly a PoE read here; Spiffeh's stances haven't been unreasonable really.

I would guess Toogeloo for third, but rn, I strongly think that may be a trap in that Flavor Leaf wants us to lim there. So I'm not exactly confident there though admittedly, the evidence points in favor of Toogeloo being scum here. I think my conspiracy theory pick for third scum here would be Solstice as mastina and Polar Bears just seem really town this game. (Ydrasse is a trust read here.) But that's a conspiracy pick; by play, Toogeloo is the logical choice for third.

(Also, I think if the game isn't over before then, there's a very very high possibility 3p LimLo is Solstice/Ydrasse/me.)
---
Also, this is going to come across as hindsight is 20/20, but I kinda didn't want the previous day to end quite yet when it did. I should've unvoted, but I didn't feel strongly enough hesitation to actually go forth with it. Dunnstral did have a good point then that there were flaws with DEB's claim from a setup-speccing perspective. Now, obviously, I was arguing that it was still possible that DEB was town, but I was interested in hearing a second opinion (mainly mastina's). Anyway, that's partially my fault for letting it happen, but I do think we should be clearer about when we're going to hammer. Maybe we should bring intent back, just a thought.

It's also kind of important everyone convey right now their pick for scum in the event I flip town. I'm the current easy target for the scum team to get a miselim on, but someone else is right above me that the scum are eyeballing to take out as well. Be on your toes.

Yes, this is a good reason to be cautious before limming you.

PEdit:. That's a read, none of that makes me lockscum.

This is mere semantics. You should fully know what mastina means by lockscum.

I must have been fucked with last night, redirected without my knowledge.
Well barring any misdirection, last night I swear to you I targeted the Electric Toogeloo, and got a guilty.

lol no. Nice try. Toogeloo may very well be scum; they may not. The guilty changes nothing.

[Ircher]

At bottom of 5488.

So the setup currently looks something like this:

3x Masons + Odd Night Vigilante (the gate is a guess) + Informed Townie (Mafia can multitask) + Strong-Willed Disloyal Simple Vanilla Cop + Roaming Doctor + Supersaint Enabler (???) vs. Roleblocker (probably gated--a full one seems a bit overpowered here) + Detective? (Good chance DEB true claimed) + 2x Goon. (I highly doubt there is an actual supersaint especially with a roleblocker present. It's even less likely if DEB is true claiming their role.

[Toogeloo]

well i guess we take volunteers on who wants to hammer deb then

I still intend on voting at L-2 on DEB, unvoting, and then hammering.

[mastina]

[I am actually stupid, Spiffeh's approach to the Bell v. Creature wagons is more organic looking to be honest]

Yup, Spiffeh's approach is more organic--but since we have three scum, he's still the most likely third overall, by virtue of being the least-townie of the slots in the poe.
From your perspective, you know yourself to be town; Ircher is townier than Spiffeh, Ydrasse I am trusting as locktown, and PBE has similar residual trust in locktown as well as being vastly outside what their scum meta apparently is and looking town. If it's not DEB-Toogeloo-Spiffeh, then who would it be? There's a missing scum and it needs to be

someone

who looks town needs to be scum. One player who looks town must, inherently, be scum, due to a third scum beyond DEB and Toogaloo.

(I should note that from my perspective, I view you around the Ircher level of townread as a personally very high townread.)

[mastina]

I dislike the slot is the very large tonal shift in playstyle from very aggressive Day 1 to more reserved every day afterwards.

Yes that does tend to happen when your largest scumread that you were being hyper-aggressive on and were genuinely convinced was scum ends up flipping town.

You'd have a better case on me if there

wasn't

a shift in my play after I was proven wrong.

But inherent to my play is a shift when I am proven wrong to pull back on the hyper-aggression and be more, so to speak, passively aggressive.

[Flavor Leaf]

they KNEW

I told you I did.

[Solstice]

[Yeeeaa that makes sense with regards to Ydrasse, then.]

[I've narrowed myself down to Dr Easy + Toog + Spiffeh/Ircher. I just dont see Polarbears or Mastina being scum really and i realized while reviewing Toog vs. Spiffeh that i like Spiffeh more]

[is Mastina capable of going sicko mode on BM D1 like that as scum? maybe but I feel like that's probably a no most of the time. Also if Toog is scum I don't think i need to worry there anyway.]

[I wonder who Spiffeh even thinks is scum now..?]

~Morning

[Flavor Leaf]

As always I'd rather believe the setup designer has some self-respect.

to be fair, I chose the scum roles, but I wouldn't have put a redirector.

[Solstice]

[I am actually stupid, Spiffeh's approach to the Bell v. Creature wagons is more organic looking to be honest]

Yup, Spiffeh's approach is more organic--but since we have three scum, he's still the most likely third overall, by virtue of being the least-townie of the slots in the poe.
From your perspective, you know yourself to be town; Ircher is townier than Spiffeh, Ydrasse I am trusting as locktown, and PBE has similar residual trust in locktown as well as being vastly outside what their scum meta apparently is and looking town. If it's not DEB-Toogeloo-Spiffeh, then who would it be? There's a missing scum and it needs to be

someone

who looks town needs to be scum. One player who looks town must, inherently, be scum, due to a third scum beyond DEB and Toogaloo.

(I should note that from my perspective, I view you around the Ircher level of townread as a personally very high townread.)

[Spiffeh is the easiest townread for me to call wrong, yup. Stuff like misunderstanding claims is not as strong as just being a solid town-looking player]

[If there is a scum player that is killing it, though, I would expect that to be Ircher. Not even really for any reason in particular other than he'd be a lot more believable than the other options, and him putting Creature and Murderkitty as his top SRs besides Bell was a bit convenient for scum. i never really got his murdercat read specifically, especially after ircher agreed with me his polarbear case seemed genuine. Not much other than that though]

[I did an ircher reread tho cause why not and it didn't really make me feel that's particularly likely]

~Morning

[mastina]

Mastina has been decently aggressive towards Creature, and now you, wouldn't you say? I am interested in what the big distinction you're noticing between her attitude towards BM and you two is. and I guess why you think that shift is inherently scummy. I would take it down a notch after hard tunneling a townie on the first day -- and i don't really see the big shift you're seeing, I suppose.

Eh while Toogaloo's arguments are by and large made in bad faith and highly disingenuous overall, this is one point of his where he does at least have some merit, but you're also right so your point has merit, too.

There is a difference between my D1 play and my D2+ play. But the shift in it has a very, stupidly obvious, cause; being wrong when I was the primary driver of the mislynch is something that makes me fear being the primary driver of another elimination. But I refuse to not contribute, I refuse to give nothing, I refuse to not give content, to entirely be in the back seat and just blindly sheep, so I still give my opinions, I still give my advice, I still give my reads and reasons on my content, just in a more passive way. Is actually a fully subconscious thing; it's not something I consciously choose to do.

She had DEB!scum a little bit before it was cool, too.

I mean I called him de facto scum from the get-go.

Granted, for all of the times I've called him scum (I think in the entirety of this game, there's been one, maybe two, times where I thought DEB might be town? One yesterday when I didn't think he'd sack himself just to eliminate someone who was probably going down anyway, maybe one other time but if so don't remember when; otherwise, been scum the entire time), I don't think I've ever voted him seriously (heck even right now I'm voting Toog!) or seriously pressured him. So as much as I've called him scum basically the entire game, it's at least plausible for me to be a scumbuddy distancing without having committed to a hard bus.

And granted, she came around to Bell being scum after a little bit of hesitation, but that certainly wasn't unique to mastina and it didnt automatically make her into a sheep from there on either.

I was actually the one to point out Bell's defensiveness and having cracked under pressure! That was a point I made before anyone else. Butyeah, I was, sadly, a bit late to the Bellscum train. I had Bell as a read to reevaluate on D2, but I unfortunately had him as initially townier than Dunn/Toog who were one step below him.

Alas.

At least I corrected that mistake later-on tho.

[mastina]

Tbh if there's a redirector in this setup then this game has treaded into the unfun territory and I abstain from all responsibility to this game.

Pretty much, yeah.

Redirector when the town is already light in power?

Not a good idea, and would make the setup highly scumsided.

Also, if DEB is town, then that would mean not one but TWO players who look town would need to be scum.

That not one, but TWO, of {PBE, Ircher, Solstice, Spiffeh} are scum at a minimum.

Far more likely is DEB being scum.

deb was supposed to die and yet... nothing

Ah well, suppose this info helps the town more than the scum since FL already knew it was you.

It does help technically narrow the poe down slightly since it means the people calling Ydrasse scum need to reevaluate that stance and helps eliminate the paranoia present there.