Mini Normal 2183 | Innocent Things | Game Over!

[Noraa]

Hi NM!

[Noraa]

why the vote on unwnd?

[Not_Mafia]

Felt like

[geraintm]

Atm, I'm seeing a geraint/Flavor scum team.
Geraint is solely meta based. This is not the town!geraint that I remember. I already fucked up a meta read this game so I'm not willing to push this hard but I can link the game I'm talking about.
Flavor's yesterday play was very upsetting. I do think it could easily be to gas me up. And today the fact that he popped in one time but never again kinda makes me think he wants Andres and me to create a shitfest and both get yeeted.

ah, but have you seen me play scum?
im fairly sure this game i am my normal town self, doing my best with the limited info i have. but you know people can change across games right? i can maye see peole going "i play like this as town" but i just dont have enough games for this to be true

[geraintm]

Geraint's ISO from that game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

oh, the game where i called myself the indiana jones of it, as my presence had literally no impact. which is the same as this one
i know i usually do more harm than good as a VT, so i've kept my head down and let those with more info lead the way and avoided the 10 pages discussions between 2 heads

[Noraa]

i know i usually do more harm than good as a VT, so i've kept my head down and let those with more info lead the way and avoided the 10 pages discussions between 2 heads

I just feel like town!you wouldn't feel the need to explain literally anything.

[unwnd]

OK well first off Noraa pump the brakes because this is the second person you've gotten into a slapfight with

This isn't how you make convincing arguments, you cant convince your own opponent that they're scum

[Noraa]

U-U ok.

[geraintm]

i know i usually do more harm than good as a VT, so i've kept my head down and let those with more info lead the way and avoided the 10 pages discussions between 2 heads

I just feel like town!you wouldn't feel the need to explain literally anything.

Oh, it is mostly guilt, me wanting to explain myself at thisbatage5. I've been happy enough to let bigger fish drive the game so far, but town needs more from me right now so trying to help. Now, when there is a chance of me getting eliminated then everyone needs to go into it with all the facts I can present. And if people want to kill me based on how I have played in other games, well I don't think that is the best way of slotting me.

Basically, I'm.not the player who is going to get us over the line. But I know killing me won't help so trying to avoid that. I will generally going with the play of "dont help scum win by killing off people who are very, very likely to be toen", so that is pretty much all day 1 votes and me when I know I'm town

[geraintm]

And this isn't a fight. I cous see a case for me being scum, so I don't mind arguing it. I don't see malice, yoy are either scum or misinformed town

[unwnd]

In terms of prioritizing reads I'll try and make this like a step 1-step 2-step 3 process:

Spoiler:

The difference between town and mafia is an informed vs. and uninformed minority. Scum doesn't need to sort people like town does, they only need to pretend.

Put yourself here.

[noraa]

There are 9 people alive so there are 8 of them you need to sort.

Now ask yourself

"What do I know based on the current gamestate?"

You know that FL has claimed vig enabler, Dunn has claimed cop (with an innocent on n_m), Insano has claimed 1-shot bodyguard, PlusJOYED has claimed town vig.

Then ask yourself

"Is what I believe of the current gamestate to be true?"

This is not limited to power roles, rather your own perception of the game. In my own case, there is a

possibility

that one of these claims are not true, but this is where prioritizing reads comes in. I know that the chance to hit scum in these claims at this point is probably down to one or zero, based on my own perception of the game. Not to be a broken record, but I personally believe Nopoint claimed Watcher Enabler as he saw it would be a good thing to claim based on what was going on. This process is not limited to just claims, you could replace "what you know" as a pool of players you townread and the situation would apply the same.

In that sense, you move on. You can come back to this thought later. In practice, this brings your pool down to 3 if you are to believe all claims. This is way less stressful to sort than 8 people, because you narrow your field.

Then you ask yourself

"What is it I want to know about the current gamestate?"

I think this is a process you skip over because instead of saying this, you assert your disposition and say

"I am town, so I should know and anyone who is against me is scum".

You should try asking people in the form of questions about things you don't know/or want to understand. I think this will help your towngame as you never try to formulate your reads and instead they seem to always come out of nowhere based on aggression and gut feeling. Gut is fine, but then eventually gut will have to turn into evidence. People would be more inclined to listen to you if you presented an argument that seemed plausible. It doesn't have to be definitively true, it just has to seem believable from a perspective that you are actually an uninformed townie and your inquiries represent this.

I can't really read you saying 'well this is how scum!me' would act because I'm not you. Instead you should say "based on my experience, scum may have a tendency to do (this) because of (applied logic based on experience, gamestate). This is only a template, I'm not trying to mold you into myself. You can be aggressive and have gut reads and represent this in your playstyle, but in your head you should work having a goal in mind instead of just getting into baseless arguments that span 20 pages.

After this, you bring it all together. What you know. What you want to know. What you believe you know. Then you follow through, and your posts reflect that. Last tip: Don't let yourself think that you have to know or that you can't change your mind. Just don't become obsessed, and instead of changing your mind on 10 different things, you could instead focus on one or two things. This will keep you from being overwhelmed and even seeming unclear to others. Hopefully this made sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: unwnd
Been trying to work out where i wanted to vote after my initial read got kiboshed. Think I am happy here at the moment.
Holidays so doing best to keep on top of things, people in this game have more knowledge than me. There must be more stuff out there too if the death last night was not scum aligned....

VOTE: Insanoflex

A {Noraa, unwnd, Insano} Scum Team would be interesting.

While I'm not liking andres and to some extent gera, I'm not sure I can buy a world where they see nopoint being at death's door and

both

of them just feign ignorance. Right now between the two it becomes a matter whether Andres was locked into his own stances (and switching off would look scummy) or if Gera is just being coy intentionally

I like this. I’m catching up. I’ll be mia until late tomorrow, though.

Because Noraa tried turning me for making a single pop in post when I had posted about 4 times earlier, one even saying I would be mia, so quoting where i said i'd be mia so Noraa doesnt try to discredit.

[Insanoflex]

I'm not really interested in all this constant noise from Noraa and people arguing with her, just pollutes the game. andres changing his tune from being apologetic for being wrong to turning back to suspecting me when FL came in is pretty funny though, like he suddenly felt there was a chance to push back at me. The theory is pretty funny, for me and Noraa to bee scum together would mean the scum were doing nothing but bussing each other yesterday (and that from 1208 on, we bussed each other rather than voting ML-bait Johnny). But that's just a little feeling on my part and my view there is already biased. As it is, I still have a hard time seeing noraa as scum making a statement like how she was sure johnny was scum but wanted to keep him around to talk to him anyway. That just doesn't feel like a thought process a scum player is likely to fake. I'll try to do a reread today with an eye toward nopoint interactions.

[Andresvmb]

So Insano refuses to re-evaluate or consider any of my points? Noted.

[Andresvmb]

I can be both apologetic for being wrong, and continue to push for what I think is the correct solve. I’m not “changing my tune”, I’m playing the game.

And I think it’s mighty interesting that you don’t even consider the possibility that the Scum were bussing. Particularly since (i) Dunn, the claimed Cop, and Fuzzy, Confirmed Town, were not voting, and (ii) the only players voting outside of nopoint were geraintm, me, and nopoint. Is your theory that the entire Scum Team was voting outside of nopoint? Well if either geraintm or I are flipped and we flip Town, your theory immediately goes out the window. Are you ready for that?

[Andresvmb]

I would also point out that no second wagon gained any traction. That is bizarre for a game with a Scum determined on saving a member of their own Team. We did such a poor job of organizing against a nopoint execution that we couldn’t even agree on the Town that should be executed? Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

The same point you are making about Noraa with Johnny, you could make about me with Flavor (I suspect you don’t believe Flavor and I could be the Team, but I’ve seen crazier things being thrown out there). With Flavor under pressure, I said this:

Also, you were saying I don't run games as town, but I specifically run games as scum (one because it helps) because I have a tendency to powertown.

I prefer playing troll town, then popping out of nowhere late game and solving, but I never get to do that anymore.

Yeah that’s what I’ve seen from you, is true. Look I don’t know what your alignment is, but provided I don’t get overly Scummy vibes from you (and I haven’t), I think bouncing my thoughts off of you is helpful.

andres do you townread FL?

whats your read on unwnd?

I’m not ready to stick my neck out completely for Flavor. But you would agree that Flavor is a good player as Town and not just Scum yeah? So I am of the opinion that we should at least try and give Flavor some time to actually show their alignment and not just execute there because of a self-vote. We have enough players with a sufficiently strong reputation I think that we can quickly turn against Flavor if necessary.

I find it hard to believe that there’s this many people that are quite certain that Flavor is Scum when I’ve literally come out of several games where Flavor was impossible to eliminate even when Flavor was openly pushing a narrative that defied several events that had occurred throughout the game.

Yet you give me no credit for any of it, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

[Andresvmb]

The point is that Scum can and do look to pocket players, and do make arguments about why certain Town players should be kept around. So your point about what Noraa did to Johnny can’t be coming from Scum is bad. Noraa leading the charge against Johnny would also make Noraa look bad I would point out. So maybe you want to keep the shade going to discredit, but not push too hard not to put yourself. Like it’s entirely possible, yet you insist on seeing Noraa’s actions under the best possible light, and mine under the worst one.

[Andresvmb]

^Not to out yourself*

[Andresvmb]

One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.

For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.

In Mini Normal 2168, they did the same exact thing. See: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188930.

How about questioning Claims?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188704

Appealing to emotion, constantly? And being abrasive?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188999

How about using someone’s join date against them? Also in that game. Oh, or laughing at someone else’s reasoning?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12164223

Do I need to keep going?

[innocentvillager]

Vote count 3.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to eliminate. Day 3 ends in (expired on 2021-01-07 21:25:25).

elimination

2. Andresvmb [2]:

Insanoflex#1726, Noraa#1807

3. unwnd [1]:

Not_Mafia#1924

4. Flavor Leaf [0]:

5. Insanoflex [0]:

6. Noraa [3]:

PlusJOYED#1744, Andresvmb#1819, Flavor Leaf#1866

7. PlusJOYED [0]:

8. Not_Mafia [0]:

10. geraintm [0]:

12. Dunnstral [0]:

no elimination [0]:

Not Voting [3]:

unwnd, geraintm, Dunnstral

mod notes

Spoiler: vote log

Day 3 vote log

Post 1726: Insanoflex votes Andresvmb

Post 1744: PlusJOYED votes Noraa

Post 1773: Andresvmb votes geraintm

Post 1807: Noraa votes Andresvmb

Post 1819: Andresvmb votes Noraa

Post 1866: Flavor Leaf votes Noraa

Post 1924: Not_Mafia votes unwnd

bolded

denotes a current vote

[Noraa]

In terms of prioritizing reads I'll try and make this like a step 1-step 2-step 3 process:

Spoiler:

The difference between town and mafia is an informed vs. and uninformed minority. Scum doesn't need to sort people like town does, they only need to pretend.

Put yourself here.

[noraa]

There are 9 people alive so there are 8 of them you need to sort.

Now ask yourself

"What do I know based on the current gamestate?"

You know that FL has claimed vig enabler, Dunn has claimed cop (with an innocent on n_m), Insano has claimed 1-shot bodyguard, PlusJOYED has claimed town vig.

Then ask yourself

"Is what I believe of the current gamestate to be true?"

This is not limited to power roles, rather your own perception of the game. In my own case, there is a

possibility

that one of these claims are not true, but this is where prioritizing reads comes in. I know that the chance to hit scum in these claims at this point is probably down to one or zero, based on my own perception of the game. Not to be a broken record, but I personally believe Nopoint claimed Watcher Enabler as he saw it would be a good thing to claim based on what was going on. This process is not limited to just claims, you could replace "what you know" as a pool of players you townread and the situation would apply the same.

In that sense, you move on. You can come back to this thought later. In practice, this brings your pool down to 3 if you are to believe all claims. This is way less stressful to sort than 8 people, because you narrow your field.

Then you ask yourself

"What is it I want to know about the current gamestate?"

I think this is a process you skip over because instead of saying this, you assert your disposition and say

"I am town, so I should know and anyone who is against me is scum".

You should try asking people in the form of questions about things you don't know/or want to understand. I think this will help your towngame as you never try to formulate your reads and instead they seem to always come out of nowhere based on aggression and gut feeling. Gut is fine, but then eventually gut will have to turn into evidence. People would be more inclined to listen to you if you presented an argument that seemed plausible. It doesn't have to be definitively true, it just has to seem believable from a perspective that you are actually an uninformed townie and your inquiries represent this.

I can't really read you saying 'well this is how scum!me' would act because I'm not you. Instead you should say "based on my experience, scum may have a tendency to do (this) because of (applied logic based on experience, gamestate). This is only a template, I'm not trying to mold you into myself. You can be aggressive and have gut reads and represent this in your playstyle, but in your head you should work having a goal in mind instead of just getting into baseless arguments that span 20 pages.

After this, you bring it all together. What you know. What you want to know. What you believe you know. Then you follow through, and your posts reflect that. Last tip: Don't let yourself think that you have to know or that you can't change your mind. Just don't become obsessed, and instead of changing your mind on 10 different things, you could instead focus on one or two things. This will keep you from being overwhelmed and even seeming unclear to others. Hopefully this made sense.

tysm <3
Imma have to read this a few more times for it to actually sink in much but I shall try my very best. Turning into you would be very honorable and I would love to even if it isn't Noraa.

[Noraa]

Im going to give this a try. Tell me if I'm doing good.

For the claimed:
Plus is the top of the pyramid as a confirmed vig - two kills last night. no cc.
Following closely is NM imo. Regardless of Dunn's alignment, NM is 99% of the time town. Scum clearing scum isn't common at all.
Right after is Dunn the cop that cleared NM.
Then Flavor. Vig enabler in a game that has a vig. Thats like 50% mech clear ig?
Thats the ordering for the claimed prs/enablers/cop clears.

Now for unclaimed/vanilla,
we have Unwnd, Andres, Insano, and geraint.
Top of this pyramid is definitely Unwnd. Unwnd has had all the traits I associate with their town game. Confidence. Leadership. Occasional hero solves. Mostly watching, observing, and then discovering.
The progression on Nopo doesn't look like scum theatre.

Honestly speaking I think Insano and Andres are tied. Theres a level of flailing that I'm seeing in Andres that looks like townie trying really hard to stay alive. His desperation of basically "The scum team is any team of {Insano, Geraint, Noraa} as long as I'm not in the team"
Insano has very good tone that seems super townie but I can't tell if its play style.

Very bottom is geraint. Too much soft mellow fluffiness. I think geraint as town is more stubborn and has this strong "I am right. fuck off" energy. This is like 100% meta based.

I'll try to do some ISOs but those trip me up pretty bad so many people are gonna turn into srs....

[Noraa]

Gonna group ISO Insano, Geraint, and Andres rn.

[Andresvmb]

One thing I would point out is that Noraa keeps saying that their meta is hard to change. And they are highlighting that their results should indicate that this is not their Scum game. But I can point out a few things that they’ve done this game that absolutely fit their Scum meta.

For instance, they came out and accused me of OMGUS’ing, while arguing that I am Scum.

In Mini Normal 2168, they did the same exact thing. See: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188930.

How about questioning Claims?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188704

Appealing to emotion, constantly? And being abrasive?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12188999

How about using someone’s join date against them? Also in that game. Oh, or laughing at someone else’s reasoning?
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12164223

Do I need to keep going?

I’m not putting myself in the Team because I’m Town. This is like elementary stuff. I don’t have a problem being included in someone else’s POE - I would argue that makes sense. But if you expected me to argue that I myself should be considered as part of a Scum Team... I have nothing to say to you.

I’m going to stick to my guns and my vote here. The idea that the Scum never intended to bus is ridiculous. It’s also something that Noraa is perfectly capable of doing btw.

Also, is Noraa really saying that Insano and I are tied, but Insano has “very good tone and seems super Townie”? Sure. Inscrutable arguments seem to be Noraa’s specialty.