Micro 991: Names on the List [game over!]

[Datisi]

Vote count 1.12

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Radja [2]:

Not_Mafia, Horsewoman

DkKoba [2]:

Gimli son of Glóin, Raya36

Lostego [1]:

Ahsoka

Horsewoman [1]:

Lostego

Ahsoka [1]:

Radja

clidd [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [1]:

clidd

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ thanks for the pagetop
~ beep

[clidd]

I will be disappointed if this change in mood has been simulated, Dk.

read list

now.

Right now, it's something like that:

Gimli | Raya36

-

Lostego | Ahsoka

-

Radja | Dk

-

Horsewoman
Not_Mafia

In order of intensity. Side-by-side names indicate similar intensity, not connection between slots. Lostego is high because of Volxen. Ahsoka demonstrated some positive things, she is there because I am able to understand more what she is doing. Radja and Dk presented strange things, but I sympathize with both slots at some specific point, so I don't think about eliminating them yet. Horsewoman and N_M did not reflect me positively or negatively, so they are close to the scum zone by PoE.

pedit: No, I don't think she's scummy, but she isn't towny to me so.. Yeah, this is the problem.

pedit²: Don't worry, I have also been the protagonist of worse discussion episodes in the past. I think the discussion helped me to understand DK more, so let's move on.

[clidd]

I would like to see more takes from Radja, Lostego, Ahsoka and Horsewoman. My PoE is pretty crazy at the moment and I may be having good impressions from slots that are scum, so it's important to see more stuff before I try to formalize.

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

[Lostego]

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

no i disagree, n_m has come through with assured reads and nothing to back them. i know this is kinda his thing but it doesn't excuse the behavior

VOTE: not_mafia

[Lostego]

what i want to ask those who are actually listening what hypothetical partner would allow koba to post or play in this type of way in a 9-player game. the PoE will eventually become very narrow and this is not the type of game for chaotic scumplay to be successful.

[clidd]

I know, but it's a meh push.

From what I know, N_M isn't going to explain much regardless of his alignment. I wanted to press more vocal slots, which could offer content.

pedit: Yeah, I think you think too that DK is more likely anti-town than scum.

[Lostego]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

i was looking at your post (#490) and to me it seemed like conjecture. the game is still very young yet you are determining an [x+y=z state] in your mind when most of D1 i personally believe is spent asking questions or interacting with players so you may create that state in your head. im not sure if its how you just play however.

[Lostego]

Like this is so farfetched I'm not sure it can be a real thought. radja is far from being a consensus anything + this is not how you're supposed to scumhunt.

'these reads were never set in stone'. we all know that, so why the defensiveness? I don't think I'll make myself very clear now or case lostego for the right reasons but I get a very strong sense that his posts come from scum as there is no effort to solve and all of his opinions lack nuance.

im not sure where you interpreted it as defensive. do you think there would have been anyone who would have disagreed that radja wasn't scummy? when i made that post i didn't find literally anyone who was defending radja or even considered them to be possibly town. that is what i meant by consensus. re-read my post with that in mind and then tell me what you think.

[Not_Mafia]

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

no i disagree, n_m has come through with assured reads and nothing to back them. i know this is kinda his thing but it doesn't excuse the behavior

VOTE: not_mafia

Bad vote

[Lostego]

gimil your responses to koba seemed much more emotional than you want them to (you yourself recognize this and apologize) so reel it back in and then speak to me whether or not you actually scumread koba outside of your emotions.

[Lostego]

if people are tired of me talking about koba then maybe koba's posts shouldn't contain 1/3 of the game.

[Lostego]

Something I'm suspicious of with Koba is someone (I think Clidd but I can't remember) called them out for not playing their typical aggressive townplay. Koba claimed that's not how they play anymore but then I saw a huge change in attitude from Koba over the next few pages and the more aggressive play came out. Scum trying to appeal? Gimli still seems fine to me in context of the read on Horsewoman. This looks like Koba forcing a tunnel.
I think it's time I move away from Clidd anyway, VOTE: Koba

not focusing on koba but instead what you mentioned about gimil/horsewoman because that's been something that i've been focusing on as well. i mentioned horsewoman's displayed apathy and i dont think it makes sense and seems a bit exaggerated. from what i gather, gimil responded to me that no, he does not read horsewoman based on experience, yet his ISO doesn't determine anything to state otherwise. his read on horsewoman seems more like a comfort, but part of me is starting to think that if gimil were to be scum then he is only latching onto that familiarity. i actally think it's decently obscene how much he seems to want horsewoman to play or to show up early in his posts. what do you think of this?

[clidd]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

i was looking at your post (#490) and to me it seemed like conjecture. the game is still very young yet you are determining an [x+y=z state] in your mind when most of D1 i personally believe is spent asking questions or interacting with players so you may create that state in your head. im not sure if its how you just play however.

It's the way I play, although I try to be more normal nowadays, compared to the exaggerated playstyle before.

If you take a look at my old games as town:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11593154

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11712598

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11762333

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11700717

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11567291

You can see that I used to create a chain of conjectures to reach conclusions.

[clidd]

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

no i disagree, n_m has come through with assured reads and nothing to back them. i know this is kinda his thing but it doesn't excuse the behavior

VOTE: not_mafia

Bad vote

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Why is a bad vote?

[clidd]

I'll take a long break, back later.

[Raya36]

Koba gives me scumvibes sometimes but I agree with their reads so meh

You mean scumvibes sometimes this game or just in general?

For me it's just that from everything I've seen so far you show the best chances at having a hidden agenda. There's been several times that I or others have pointed out a potential agenda in your posts and I'm having a hard time seeing past that. There were some posts I've liked though like ending the 1v1 with Koba and moving on to someone else.

I said more in the sense that you have to force your mind to constantly evaluate me, as I think that you're town in good faith. I don't have a hidden agenda, but I understand that if this was something interpreted about me by more than one person, it was probably something wrong that I transmitted unintentionally (and that I hope to be able to correct). At least I transmitted some positive ai particles to you with that earlier interaction with Koba (that I don't think would have a good outcome if extended).

If you are town then I do hope you're able to correct that as well.

Didn't you just vote Ahsoka? But you agree with them being town?

I don't remember if I got to share my thoughts, but that was a conclusion I had before in post 446, but I just removed the vote later.

I'm still not following why you voted Ahsoka there? Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting, you had a townread on Ahsoka almost immediately after the vote? I do get that you scumread them in the quoted posts in your next post but that was long before this vote and then just a few hours later you were suddenly townreading Ahsoka? Where's the progression?

what i want to ask those who are actually listening what hypothetical partner would allow koba to post or play in this type of way in a 9-player game. the PoE will eventually become very narrow and this is not the type of game for chaotic scumplay to be successful.

I don't think their hypothetical partners could do much about it to be honest

Something I'm suspicious of with Koba is someone (I think Clidd but I can't remember) called them out for not playing their typical aggressive townplay. Koba claimed that's not how they play anymore but then I saw a huge change in attitude from Koba over the next few pages and the more aggressive play came out. Scum trying to appeal? Gimli still seems fine to me in context of the read on Horsewoman. This looks like Koba forcing a tunnel.
I think it's time I move away from Clidd anyway, VOTE: Koba

not focusing on koba but instead what you mentioned about gimil/horsewoman because that's been something that i've been focusing on as well. i mentioned horsewoman's displayed apathy and i dont think it makes sense and seems a bit exaggerated. from what i gather, gimil responded to me that no, he does not read horsewoman based on experience, yet his ISO doesn't determine anything to state otherwise. his read on horsewoman seems more like a comfort, but part of me is starting to think that if gimil were to be scum then he is only latching onto that familiarity. i actally think it's decently obscene how much he seems to want horsewoman to play or to show up early in his posts. what do you think of this?

This is an interesting take. There is certainly a good chance that it's a comfort read since she's the only player he has familiarity with. My read on Horsewoman is very tonal based. I have other reasons such as her catchup which I liked. I was under the impression Gimli had a similar (semi-weak) reasoning for that read as well which seems fine to me. I don't see why it should've attracted that much attention from Koba. Also I don't think the early focus on Horsewoman was unnatural. There's a likely possibility that because Horsewoman is who he is familiar with, he is subconsciously fixated on her absence. So essentially I don't believe latching onto the familiarity of Horsewoman is necessarily AI.

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

[Not_Mafia]

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

no i disagree, n_m has come through with assured reads and nothing to back them. i know this is kinda his thing but it doesn't excuse the behavior

VOTE: not_mafia

Bad vote

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Why is a bad vote?

Bad vote

[DkKoba]

hi im home from work and am willing to toss aside my previous reads into the trash.

i admit in my eagerness to find scum and use my methods I went and pushed myself too hard to the point of being stressed.

the only read im retaining atm is the clidd scumread. the very fact they sat there and let me tunnel onto gimli like that just doesnt sit right with me.

idk

im fucking lost.

i hate d1s.

[DkKoba]

theres a lot of emotion fueled things i want to say about the takes expressed in my abscence but i will decline to in favor of letting game breathe from my presence and letting other discussion permeate it. I think I helped create good enough content to start legitimate scumhuntning and alignment telling reads/actions from occuring.

[clidd]

I'm still not following why you voted Ahsoka there? Unless I'm horribly misinterpreting, you had a townread on Ahsoka almost immediately after the vote? I do get that you scumread them in the quoted posts in your next post but that was long before this vote and then just a few hours later you were suddenly townreading Ahsoka? Where's the progression?

This is a better line of posts:

Spoiler:

Ahsoka didn't townspew yet, which is strange.

Not a ping, but something I found interesting to mention. She probably knows what I'm talking about, although we can't discuss it at the moment.

I would

never

succumb to the dark side like my master before me.

Hey, I haven't forgotten about you.

When possible, I would like to see your takes on the game.



I feel a disturbance in the *force* and maybe it's coming from you.

Ahsoka, I was interested to see your thoughts on the active slots. It doesn't have to be detailed, it can be a summary.

I'm vibing with Volxen, he towntell already.

You're the next I want to sort.

VOTE: Ahsoka

I wanted DK before you, but knowing the nature of who you are, my priority has changed.

Dk, what do you think about Ahsoka rn?

I imagine Ahsoka's thoughts must connect with mine spiritually at some point if she is town.

A possible reason for the approaches she is using here crossed my mind, but I believe it will hinder my read on her more than help if I am speculating about it, so I will let her play her game and see if I get a definite impression.

But without that, if I had to guess rn, I would lean scum on Ahsoka.

I think one of the reasons that is making me confused is that she doesn't seem to be trying to control the flow and take proactive action on the wagons, which is something I imagine scum!Ahsoka would be more vocal about.

Before I forget:

Gimli>
- Why do you think I should be townreading Ahsoka?
- Is Volxen null or scumlean to you?
- If scum!radja were real, don't you think that scum would buss Radja if he's acting scummy?

Thanks for the replies to my 322, Gimli. Your opinions are super transparent and I appreciate that.

I believe that my towngame has been losing strength over time recently, while my scumgame has been getting stronger. I think that my reasoning as town is very abstract, sometimes contradictory and even disconnected with a plausible logical progression, because I try to genuinely convey what I am thinking and it does not always come in the proper order or it is not always represented in a organic way. As a scum, my posts are previously created in a way that is understandable to readers and less ambitious in my assumptions, as I try to follow a timeline to avoid inconsistencies about what I am dissimulating. Another point, as town, is that I like to assess who is suspecting me and I tend to have a townread on players who suspect me as long as I can see good faith in the reasons being used against me.

Example of reasoning scum!me:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11841373

Example of reasoning town!me:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12395161

Example with me townreading someone who is scumreading me (town!me)
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12392993

The dynamics between Ahsoka and DK improved my perception of Ahsoka and the impression she had on Lostego were in line with the impression I had.

Although I don't necessarily agree with the assumptions about the votes in which she was seeing, the way Ahsoka described her posts, even though she's FL (someone adept at manipulation), seemed sincere.

It is not really a towntell, but these are good townpings that I'm ok to materialize in a tl.

UNVOTE: Ahsoka

I'll take a break.

You are acting super selfishly if you are not scum, honestly. I think you know why I'm pushing you and I've seen how strong you are as town (I already mentioned that), so that you interpret that I would push you as a mislim as scum doesn't make sense.

I don't know if that answers your question, but I was asking in parallel to other people about Ahsoka and filtering information on other points of view, at the same time that I was expressing myself and evaluating her attitudes, in which I had an internal change of opinion about her alignment. There is a large time gap between the vote (211) and the formalization of the tl (446) that influenced the change in perspective. Although I didn't verbalize that, I would say it was a process that I didn't share as much as I could in the sense of what I was thinking. The late vote change was due to the distraction caused by the discussion with Dk, because only when I paused was when I remembered that I did not consider Ahsoka a potential scum as much as before, on the contrary, I thought she was towny. Not super strong, but decent enough for the lean margin.

Does that make sense to you?

[clidd]

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

I agree, although he is in most of my PoE scenarios as scum.

[clidd]

I want to check this.

VOTE: Horsewoman

I need to feel something, positive or negative, by myself.

[clidd]

Horsewoman, has anything changed for you after the last few pages?

I want to see where your mind is by now.

[clidd]

hi im home from work and am willing to toss aside my previous reads into the trash.

i admit in my eagerness to find scum and use my methods I went and pushed myself too hard to the point of being stressed.

the only read im retaining atm is the clidd scumread. the very fact they sat there and let me tunnel onto gimli like that just doesnt sit right with me.

idk

im fucking lost.

i hate d1s.

It's ok, as long as you try to keep evaluating and reassessing your reads.

I really didn't want to interfere between the two of you back there. Arguing with you in that state seemed counterproductive.

If you want to discuss something with me, like Raya is doing, you have permission now, because I'm interpreting you as more likely town than not (actually, anti-town-town with two ''towns'' to emphasize that you are a kind of town acting anti-town, but you got the idea) based on the good faith of your change of mood during the 1v1, which I think would be quite toxic if you were scum reproducing that attitude. Maybe I'll change my mind at some point, I don't know, but for now it is what it is.

[Raya36]

Koba's return/reset seems ok gonna UNVOTE: for now. Happy to talk about any players if you want, Koba.

@clidd re 644, that clears a lot up actually. I am interested in how those small town pings completely changed them from a scum lean to a town lean. To be more specific why did you say that you expect town!Ahsoka's thoughts to align with yours (also one of the reasons for the new townlean).

Not liking the push on NM. Anyone who knows his play is well aware it won't go anywhere D1.

I agree, although he is in most of my PoE scenarios as scum.

That for sure makes sense, but for any player other than NM. Unless NM does something amazing I'm happy to join you on them D2 but we both know nothing is going to come of that vote D1.