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[Frogsterking]

@Frog so who do you think is scum?

IDK, I'm probably going to sheep Luca and vote Bugs.

[Frogsterking]

@Frog so who do you think is scum?

IDK, I'm probably going to sheep Luca and vote Bugs.

As long as the execution is within Lunar/Bugs/OutWorldER/Trendall today I think it's a good choice. I'm kind of just spinning my wheels here trying to think of something useful I can do. I guess I will sheep you onto Trendall because he's annoying and doesn't do anything and I'm curious what everyone else will do.

VOTE: Trendall

[Frogsterking]

I'm suspicious of the people who want to get rid of Bugs, who is a conduit to the hood, but not Gamma. It wasn't until recently that Gamma even shared anything from the hood, if I recall correctly.

so why the TR on Trendall then?

[Trendall]

the statistics and psychographics will lead us further and faster than our pings.

I guess I will sheep you onto Trendall because he's annoying and doesn't do anything

So it's going well then?

[Frogsterking]

the statistics and psychographics will lead us further and faster than our pings.

I guess I will sheep you onto Trendall because he's annoying and doesn't do anything

So it's going well then?

From your perspective it's not because you just talked me into executing you, unless that was your goal, in which case you're doing quite well.

[Frogsterking]

@Bugs Wagon

Can we consolidate wagons onto Trendall today to give the hood chat more time to sort Bugs?

[Frogsterking]

@Trendall @LunarMartian

( No one else allowed )

Right now I see two competing theories:

1) Luca, OutWorldER and Lunar are town, Bugs is obvscum possibly along with Trendall and there are one or more deep scum.

2) Galron, Trendall and Bugs are town, Lunar and OutWorldER are obvscum and there is one deep scum who in this scenario I propose as Gamma.

I don't see how in one possibility one person can be 'obvious' and in another possibility the same person can be town. And 'obvscum possibly' is like...

That's a strange thing to latch onto. Clearly it's two competing and mutually exclusive theories. Why are you trying to discredit Frogster so consistently?

I'm going to explain using Trendall's personality type, which he self-identifies as being "pure neuroticism", and then later specifies further as being low in the anxiety sub facet, both of which seem fairly accurate. Trendall's posts where he self-identifies these traits are in the spoilers below.

Spoiler:

Every time I do an OCEAN test or indeed any psychometric tests I get different results, but it seems that I become more and more well balanced over the years

Extraversion - 56%
Agreeableness - 51%
Conscientiousness - 33%
Openness - 59%
Neuroticism - 57%

In reality I am just 100% neuroticism and nothing else, but they never quite ask the right questions.

VOTE: Bugspray

He did say that he's all-neuroticism in his response to the SSS so maybe he is nervous.

Maybe I just can't be bothered because I find your personality stuff unbearable to read. What would I be 'nervous' about sitting at home on my laptop posting on an online forum? I'm like, somebody who barely ever gets nervous, 'neuroticism' comes in a lot of different forms. But you've completely free associated away from your personality type results there and are just speculating, making wrong assumptions, completely using your own imagination while using the language of the personality tests to try and justify and give credence to the fact that all of these observations about people you're making are complete fantasies you're inventing in your own head which don't map onto reality in any significant way whatsoever. Which you've been doing all game and it's like...I can't tell you how this is just my least favourite thing.

Here is the description of neuroticism from the source I used earlier, http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/5 ... tions.html :

High Neuroticism

Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional.
Neuroticism Facets

Anxiety. The "fight-or-flight" system of the brain of anxious individuals is too easily and too often engaged. Therefore, people who are high in anxiety often feel like something dangerous is about to happen. They may be afraid of specific situations or be just generally fearful. They feel tense, jittery, and nervous. Persons low in Anxiety are generally calm and fearless. Your level of anxiety is $flev[1].
Anger. Persons who score high in Anger feel enraged when things do not go their way. They are sensitive about being treated fairly and feel resentful and bitter when they feel they are being cheated. This scale measures the tendency to feel angry; whether or not the person expresses annoyance and hostility depends on the individual's level on Agreeableness. Low scorers do not get angry often or easily. Your level of anger is $flev[2].
Depression. This scale measures the tendency to feel sad, dejected, and discouraged. High scorers lack energy and have difficult initiating activities. Low scorers tend to be free from these depressive feelings. Your level of depression is $flev[3].
Self-Consciousness. Self-conscious individuals are sensitive about what others think of them. Their concern about rejection and ridicule cause them to feel shy and uncomfortable abound others. They are easily embarrassed and often feel ashamed. Their fears that others will criticize or make fun of them are exaggerated and unrealistic, but their awkwardness and discomfort may make these fears a self-fulfilling prophecy. Low scorers, in contrast, do not suffer from the mistaken impression that everyone is watching and judging them. They do not feel nervous in social situations. Your level or self-consciousness is $flev[4].
Immoderation. Immoderate individuals feel strong cravings and urges that they have difficulty resisting. They tend to be oriented toward short-term pleasures and rewards rather than long- term consequences. Low scorers do not experience strong, irresistible cravings and consequently do not find themselves tempted to overindulge. Your level of immoderation is $flev[5].
Vulnerability. High scorers on Vulnerability experience panic, confusion, and helplessness when under pressure or stress. Low scorers feel more poised, confident, and clear-thinking when stressed. Your level of vulnerability is $flev[6].

So basically by his own definition Trendall feels angry and/or depressed (since he clarified he's not anxious), is hyper sensitive to criticism, feels helpless and confused, and is unable to moderate his impulses. Notice the defensiveness here when you FoSed him:

who is there to defend me? Trendall.

Lol I won't waste my time then. Let's all get this then because there was a fair amount of support for eliminating Lunar yesterday, so we can just like, get it done now.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

What 'changing story'? Like where lmao. And where was I 'confident' in anything and where did I 'go to great effort' or whatever you said to defend you? You are just making stuff up.

I'd wager that these sub facets are working together here anti-synergistically, and that Trendall is lashing out against any threats he perceives by belittling them; and because of his inability to moderate his impulses (in this case the impulse to criticize), he's going too far now and drawing attention to himself, which requires more belittling because of the hyper sensitivity, which then draws more attention etc.

So the question is whether or not his behavior is AI. I think that it is. Take a second look at the second half of Trendall's questionnaire, the part on lying, and notice the evasiveness and qualifying in his answers:

Slating personality tests is really one of those 'world's most non-controversial opinions' things, where you'll get like ten people all agreeing with each other saying 'personality tests are so dumb!', as if each individual one thinks they're this lone minority voice crusading against the hordes of people who love personality tests. Then if you engage with them they'll tell you that people can't be put into boxes.

---

1. When was the first time you played mafia and do you remember if you liked it?

Years ago some of my friends invited me to play on a private message board, and I don't remember the game too well but I discovered this website and got fascinated by the game reading about the different roles and so on.

2. Why are you playing this current game of mafia now?

Cause I normally play the newbie games, but I joined a mini game a while back and found it really fun, so now I'm trying another one.

3. What is your favorite mafia-like game now? (including games like Among Us and Secret Hitler)

Nothing ever beats epicmafia

4. How many people would you say you interact with offline on a typical day?

There is really no such thing as a 'typical day' for me in terms of whom I interact with, but over the past few weeks it's gonna average out at like 3-4 per day.

5. How many people would you say you interact with online on a typical day?

Really wouldn't know

6. How often do you tell stories?

Not sure I understand the question

7. Do you think that lying is ever OK?

No

8. Do you lie more often online than offline?

Presumably offline, I'm not sure what I'd lie about online exactly or why

9. How good are you at lying?

I wouldn't know because it might be that people know that I'm lying to them and are being too polite to tell me. I generally just prefer to tell the truth, so I hardly get to practice. But I don't remember ever being caught in a situation that I couldn't immediately talk my way out of.

10. Would you rather talk to someone in-person or online?

In person, and then if we don't get to see each other in person v often then msg me constantly every day x

Trendall's stance on telling stories is "Not sure I understand the question", he's "not sure what I'd lie about online exactly or why", and he "wouldn't know" how good he is at lying and then qualifies himself.

I don't believe that Trendall doesn't know what a story is or that he's not sure what he'd lie about online, or that he "wouldn't know" if he can lie or not, since he signed up for a game of mafia.

Trendall says next he's been in loads of bands:

Wow thank you for cooperating Trendall, I'm curious if you've ever been part of a death metal band or other band?

Yeah I've been in loads of bands, not death metal though.

Story telling is a KEY ELEMENT OF MANY, MANY SONGS across pretty much any genre, so unless Trendall has been exclusively playing in Beethoven bands, so in addition to his mafia career I'm sure he understands what a story is and has been involved in the creation and telling of them at least somewhat regularly.

This makes it clear to me that Trendall CAN lie and has been making an effort to cover this up since his second post.

[Frogsterking]

@Frog so who do you think is scum?

Trendall.

[Lunar Martian]

I sort of disagree with that analysis. I didn't understand the storytelling question either. We all tell stories and use metaphor unless (except some neuro atypical people). Even neuro atypical will recount memories, etc., which is a form of storytelling. What sort of stories do we tell is more relevant I think. Questions 7-9 are more interesting. Pretty much everyone admits that noble lies are acceptable, except maybe Kantians. We all put on a persona somewhat when we go online, so it seems odd that he wouldn't know what to lie about. And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie. There's a bit of a disconnect between saying he never really lies but then also talking about how friends react to his lies.

To be clear Trendall, I'm not saying nor do I think that you're a bad person. I feel like this is treading dangerously close to making judgments about your character IRL, and I just want to say that despite talking about you lying, I don't think you're a bad person or anything. I tell plenty of lies. I'm only really talking about any of this in an effort to determine whether you're Mafia in this game.

[Frogsterking]

I sort of disagree with that analysis. I didn't understand the storytelling question either. We all tell stories and use metaphor unless (except some neuro atypical people). Even neuro atypical will recount memories, etc., which is a form of storytelling.

#1 What sort of stories do we tell is more relevant I think.

Questions 7-9 are more interesting. Pretty much everyone admits that noble lies are acceptable, except maybe Kantians. We all put on a persona somewhat when we go online, so it seems odd that he wouldn't know what to lie about. And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie. There's a bit of a disconnect between saying he never really lies but then also talking about how friends react to his lies.

To be clear Trendall, I'm not saying nor do I think that you're a bad person.

#2 I feel like this is treading dangerously close to making judgments about your character IRL, and I just want to say that despite talking about you lying, I don't think you're a bad person or anything. I tell plenty of lies. I'm only really talking about any of this in an effort to determine whether you're Mafia in this game.

#1

That's a great point and that would be a much better question.

#2

Same here, I don't think Trendall lies or does anything wrong IRL, and it was not my intention to attack him as a person, it was my intention to show how I believe he happens to be lying and attacking everything I say in this specific game, and there is probably a reason for it (scum flip).

[Frogsterking]

I'm sorry I got carried away there, to make sure it doesn't happen again when applying OCEAN in-game I think I will tone it down and exercise caution when talking about any of the extraversion, agreeableness, and especially neuroticism factors, because those factors can sometimes come with more personal, social, or cultural stigma attached.

[Frogsterking]

I'm suspicious of the people who want to get rid of Bugs, who is a conduit to the hood, but not Gamma. It wasn't until recently that Gamma even shared anything from the hood, if I recall correctly.

One last thing before I work on my chill for a little while, is that Bugs shared info with their ability much earlier, but Gamma did use his ability to help me first chance he got:

@All Did Amelie share any thoughts about night actions from her previous game on this site?

@Bugspray@Gamma Can you gather anything concrete about who she may have targeted last night or if potential scum in the hood chat may have been able to fish out the prs?

I may be able to answer these

Based on hood contents I’d figure Galron was the NK target
And if scum is in there they probably know 1 PR

[Momrangal]

GAIZE I BACK

[Momrangal]

I don't see the progression here. One of the people pushing NPOM was Momrangal herself, who gave absolutely no reasoning at all for her vote. Also, one of these 'crappy' pushes against NPOM came from Bugs, who Momrangal seemingly doesn't want to suspect or pressurize.

Y'know

You totally missed the fact that I voted NPOM when I beleived NPOM to be town

[Momrangal]

Prodded

Told mod via PM I'm V/la.

Don't know what is going on

How much longer until your v/la is over? I was wanting to hear your thoughts on the gamestate today.

In particular your thoughts on Trendel, OutWorlder, Luca, and also thoughts surrounding EoD1.

Now, gonna take awhile to catch up but I agree with your haunch. There are bigger town fish to fry unless all the big fish are scum and I feel like a big fish so....

[NoPowerOverMe]

@mom - why would you vote someone who you thought was town?

[Trendall]

Yeah I really wish I had the time to discuss what I'm like in real life and how it relates to this mafia game. I'm sorry Frogsterking but the majority of that post isn't terribly accurate (you got the poor impulse control bit correct and that's basically it) and the disingenuous mental gymnastics of your trying to claim that I myself claimed those things about my own personality is like...I just have no idea what the fresh hell I just read to be honest. I'm not really interested in any of your criticisms of me on a personal level, you're presuming that the way that I choose to approach a mafia game is broadly representative of what my entire personality is like in real life, and it just isn't, I'm a character in a mafia game. On epicmafia years back I had different accounts and they all had different personalities like one was always cool and laid back, one was very talkative and frenetic and so on. I have no idea how to explain this and I have no objection to having a big conversation about how this relates to major insecurities I may have about myself or mental health issues I may have been diagnosed with and so on, but this is just a thing with me, I like screwing around with different online personas and one of the many reasons why I love this game is that it's a roleplaying game and I

in theory

should be able to just do that with the underlying understanding between all the players being that when you're in the game and just when you're online generally, you don't go about things the same as you do irl, so nothing in the way of a player being manipulative or critical or anything such as this necessarily reflects onto how they are as a person. To reiterate you're a character in a roleplaying game. When you start to focus too much on people's real life personalities, then it might not even be relevant for reasons such as this. But more importantly, the game basically turns into 'let's eliminate the person with the worst personality, who can win by attacking who's character the hardest?' which...I mean to be perfectly honest I'd probably prefer that as a game, but we signed up for a game of mafia so I don't think the real life stuff is useful.

[Lunar Martian]

I sort of disagree with that analysis. I didn't understand the storytelling question either. We all tell stories and use metaphor unless (except some neuro atypical people). Even neuro atypical will recount memories, etc., which is a form of storytelling.

#1 What sort of stories do we tell is more relevant I think.

Questions 7-9 are more interesting. Pretty much everyone admits that noble lies are acceptable, except maybe Kantians. We all put on a persona somewhat when we go online, so it seems odd that he wouldn't know what to lie about. And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie. There's a bit of a disconnect between saying he never really lies but then also talking about how friends react to his lies.

To be clear Trendall, I'm not saying nor do I think that you're a bad person.

#2 I feel like this is treading dangerously close to making judgments about your character IRL, and I just want to say that despite talking about you lying, I don't think you're a bad person or anything. I tell plenty of lies. I'm only really talking about any of this in an effort to determine whether you're Mafia in this game.

#1

That's a great point and that would be a much better question.

#2

Same here, I don't think Trendall lies or does anything wrong IRL, and it was not my intention to attack him as a person, it was my intention to show how I believe he happens to be lying and attacking everything I say in this specific game, and there is probably a reason for it (scum flip).

To be clear I also wasn't trying to passive-aggressively say you were over the line. I was just feeling like what I said could be interpreted as rude even though it wasn't intended to cause harm in any way, and I didn't think anything I was saying was an attack in any way.

[Trendall]

And I feel like everyone knows how good a liar they are, especially if they do sometimes lie.

The problem is is that you never really have a way of knowing whether the reason why you got away with whatever you were trying to do was because the person genuinely wasn't aware you're lying, or because there was just some sorta unstated social agreement there to like, both go along with it, white lies, that sorta thing.

I have like a person I know in real life who kinda lies to me about little things here and there but it's just sorta really blatantly obvious and I just ignore it because like...I dunno it's not a big deal to me like they're not a major character in my life I really don't care. This person however, because I never call them out on any of this and I just go along with whatever they’re saying, they could well be there looking at me thinking to themselves 'I am such a great liar, this guy is totally buying all of this!'.

So I'd never say like 'I'm a good liar' because somebody could easily like, wrongly think that about themselves and to some degree I wouldn't describe myself as a 'good' anything and would prefer to let other people judge, because going by how accurate other people's self-assessments on anything are most of the time I don't see why mine would..... But then yeah, to some degree if I described myself as a 'bad liar' I dunno how accurate that would be because I can be very persuasive without

needing

to lie. So sometimes it's like 'yea I didn't lie at all, didn't change any facts, didn't make anything up, and I didn't need to lol still got one over on u'. So that goes some way to explain why I wouldn’t have a clear answer for a question like that but I'm sure if I sat and thought about it more we could have a big discussion about it and so on.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah I really wish I had the time to discuss what I'm like in real life and how it relates to this mafia game. I'm sorry Frogsterking but the majority of that post isn't terribly accurate (you got the poor impulse control bit correct and that's basically it) and the disingenuous mental gymnastics of your trying to claim that I myself claimed those things about my own personality is like...I just have no idea what the fresh hell I just read to be honest. I'm not really interested in any of your criticisms of me on a personal level, you're presuming that the way that I choose to approach a mafia game is broadly representative of what my entire personality is like in real life, and it just isn't, I'm a character in a mafia game. On epicmafia years back I had different accounts and they all had different personalities like one was always cool and laid back, one was very talkative and frenetic and so on. I have no idea how to explain this and I have no objection to having a big conversation about how this relates to major insecurities I may have about myself or mental health issues I may have been diagnosed with and so on, but this is just a thing with me, I like screwing around with different online personas and one of the many reasons why I love this game is that it's a roleplaying game and I

in theory

should be able to just do that with the underlying understanding between all the players being that when you're in the game and just when you're online generally, you don't go about things the same as you do irl, so nothing in the way of a player being manipulative or critical or anything such as this necessarily reflects onto how they are as a person. To reiterate you're a character in a roleplaying game. When you start to focus too much on people's real life personalities, then it might not even be relevant for reasons such as this. But more importantly, the game basically turns into 'let's eliminate the person with the worst personality, who can win by attacking who's character the hardest?' which...I mean to be perfectly honest I'd probably prefer that as a game, but we signed up for a game of mafia so I don't think the real life stuff is useful.

This is the first post I’ve seen that makes me question the value of the personality stuff
I think the OCEAN test was legit, but the questionnaire seems like it might have been a crock of shit
Frogster I have to ask, why was Trendall the one you singled out among the responses?

[Trendall]

Well I was described as 'angry', 'depressed', 'hyper-sensitive', 'helpless', 'confused'. I have an 'inability' to do this that and the other, I am 'lashing out', 'defensive'.

When you just look at the tone of the language then it becomes quite obvious that the reason for singling me out didn't reaaaally have anything to do with them wanting to find mafia. They just wanted to attack my character. They'll go on to claim that that wasn't the purpose of their post and try to argue this with a bunch more linguistic gymnastics. Seen it a hundred times before.

[Lunar Martian]

Despite everything else, I still feel pretty confident for other reasons that Trendall is Mafia, and Gamma's post there as well as a few others recently suggest that we are on the right track and Mafia is trying to organize to shift momentum.

[Trendall]

I still feel pretty confident for other reasons that Trendall is Mafia

Still thinkin' about that mega suspicious town read I had on you huh?

[Lunar Martian]

I still feel pretty confident for other reasons that Trendall is Mafia

Still thinkin' about that mega suspicious town read I had on you huh?

The straw man graveyard is filling up really fast. Soon we will be all out of straw men and will have to address the real arguments though.

[Trendall]

God did you have other ones? Can you summarise what they are?