Mini 2186: Pokemon Battles [GAME OVER]

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Think Chara, Raya, Titus, Mystix and jjh is town. Null on Infinity Zero but I dislike bob’s push on them. I really don’t understand how our hydra got lumped in with theirs. I literally just finished a game where scum made a ridiculously strong push like that for bizarre reasons right out of the gate, so I’m thinking bob is suspicious.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

VOTE COUNT 1 . 7

• Infinity Zero
  -------- 2 ( Chara, Wellermanbob, Vaxkiller )
  
  Titus
  ---------------- 1 ( Perfume )
  
  Vaxkiller
  ------------ 1 ( jjh927 )
  
  Perfume
  -------------- 1 ( Titus )
  
  Catboi
  --------------- 1 ( Raya36 )
  
  Chara
  ---------------- 1 ( Infinity Zero )
  
  Mistyx
  --------------- 1 ( Catboi )
  
  Wellermanbob
  --------- 1 ( Red )
  
  Raya36
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Smoke and Mirrors
  ---- 0 ( No One )
  
  Red
  ------------------ 0 ( No One )
  
  jjh927
  --------------- 0 ( No One )
  
  Twins Akari and Mara
  - 0 ( No One )
  
  
  
  Not Voting
  ----------- 3 ( Mistyx, Smoke and Mirrors, Twins Akari and Mara )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to Flip
Deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-11 20:01:00)

@mod can we have an updated VC please?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Y'all can T v T. Meanwhile Perfume has been dodging this thread since we got out of RVS.

I don't think this is TvT tbh? Like there's a brewing anti- bob sentiment in the thread which is, if you'll allow me the assumption of being correct on my scumread of Infinity, makes sense as the pieces start to fall together.

Okay, explain this to me then and why you lumped us in with them?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Mara doesn't really like the Bob guy either. He seems so mean, like super mean

This made me lol.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I don't really want to give away exactly how I read titus, and it's not perfect anyway. The best way to put it in the most simplest of words is

Overexplained in a way that will rub some people the wrong way.

Appearing to be doing things that others cant see is another bonus.

Her tone reads townie but it’s probably too soon for a hard read but rn, I lean town on her.

[Infinity Zero]

Nancy does your tone tend to differ based on your alignment?

-Inf

[wellermanbob]

It sure is funny that whenever you put people on the to die list they always come around and scumread you in the end:)

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Infinity Zero

Lets try this

This vote feels a little oddly placed. We have all the early game nonsense going on and of all the slots weller decides to vote ours? It doesn't make sense why he singled us out and he never explains it.

Okay goodnight

Don't like the tone of this either.

Hi nancy, protocol is gamma emerald. Noraa isn't in this game. Why do you think you'll have difficulty reading me?

-Inf

Are you actually going to do anything with this information or are you just asking to fill the airwaves though?

That wasn't me asking the question but what's wrong with it? Maybe it'll just end up being noise but you can't tell if you don't ask (at least for that one). Though I do think it would be nice if Nancy defined why she thinks Infinity will be hard to sort, as well as possibly why she mistook me for Noraa.

Not liking bob perfume and vax but that list contains at most 1 scum due to

voting theory.

go on

I get the sense just ignoring Titus will be best for the game regardless of their alignment

This just seems overblown. In further posts weller takes issue with Titus' current approach, so why this comment that seems like he's writing her off for the entire game. In a certain sense it feels like he's discrediting her, which I think scum generally would be invested in doing with how she plays.

Do you think my reads are bad?

I think they're indistinguishable from throwing darts at a board at the moment because you've offered up reasoning that doesn't seem relevant AND you're publicly explaining them all which combines for a nasty distraction in my opinion

I can see how the reads seem like throwing darts, but I feel like it's a bit of a style thing with Titus where she tends to prefer those data-based reads (what with how she focuses on VCA aand doesn't like d1s). So it's pretty much the way she works that is being picked at. In addition it seems like OMGUS driven shade given him being in that suspect pool he responded to saying he'd ignore her, and 138 kinda affirms my sense that he reflexively shaded Titus there in response to her sussing him in particular.

I think smoke and mirrors and infinity something are the two most significant slots to place at the moment.

Which may or may not include purging with extreme passion

I think this post is disingenuous for two reasons. First, he suggests placing us and S&M quickly, but I don't really see anything actually

engaging

with our slots, all he's doing is pushing us with no reasoning set out at all for it. It's a shallow attempt to look like he's sorting but his words don't match his actions in any way. The second issue is his mention of purging us with "burning passion". That doesn't really harmonize with how he's pushed us, yes he's pushed us a lot but it feels like he doesn't really care about it, it's not his goal to push us. And if it's not his goal, then it's a step to some other goal, presumably pushing town and driving a scum agenda. To expand on how he doesn't have real passion in his push, in 144, his response to Vaxkiller voting us is just to pat Vax on the back for doing it. It doesn't read like he's really caring to put in a full try on pushing us.

I am explaining my reads

You're explaining reads but they are not useful because you are applying a book on draughts to a game of canasta

I'm pretty concerned with how weller is dealing with explaining reads. Further down in 208 he says he doesn't feel like explaining his reads makes it easier to track his thought process (or I presume that's what he was saying). Well, why? You have people like Titus and Chara who are actually explaining themselves pretty effectively, and people can actual engage and potentially agree on those explanations, which a) helps build trust since they can see where the other person is coming from (and even if they don't agree the thought process is still out there which can be determined as sensible or not), and b) if someone agrees on a scumread they'll vote with you. weller has been pushing us without giving any real logic, which can gain interest from some but rarely carries weight in actually limming someone. This could be a massive playstyle issue but weller isn't interested in putting up the needed effort to work with the town it seems, which as I'll get into later seems scummy in spots.

No I meant 96/97 whoops

weller keeps picking at that interaction as why we and S&M are scummy, but here's the thing, those posts didn't exist when he dropped his vote onto us. He's trying to retroactively justify his read, if there is a thing he saw before then it's impossible to tell because he's not explaining it, which is why explaining reads is so crucial.

There's evil afoot between Infinity and Smoke and Mirrors I can smell it.

Thar she blows

This doesn't look like a real thought. It seems like someone tried to draw a beautiful sunrise and just created a bunch of spots of color on a page, there's no emotional substance in how weller expresses himself here. With his previous assertion that he wanted to lim us with a burning passion, it seems like he's trying to fake a solving drive that doesn't exist.

I would argue the current gamestate is fine for town.

Why do you think it's bad?

The current gamestate is not very easy to form real reads in. With so many people doing their own nonsense thing, it's hard to actually engage with anyone and have it mean anything. So trying to move out of that makes it easier to form reads, which is pro-town. While I'd say progress has been made we're still not really anywhere near where we should be rn. weller's play has done nothing to really improve gamestate and kinda feels like he's exploiting it to an extent, with his lack of visible logic working into the inscrutable nonsense of the game.

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

This happens again later, but weller is kinda dodging explaining his own reads by asking a bunch of questions to deflect the point. As has been asserted multiple times, the intent was to sort weller's thought process vs. trying to interpret us. But it seems like weller can't really put out a logic for how he came to scumread us and so strongly, so he has to ask deflecting questions in order to put off the demands to explain himself.

I'm not calling a scumteam with no flips. Merely that those two players have pinged.

This does not click with him saying us and S&M are up to no good. Why are you saying things like that if you're not okay forming associative reads rn?

we are, which is why i conceded i got a read out of it, but getting information out of you is like pulling teeth, and it doesn't need to be that way. for example, it wasn't clear until just now that you weren't calling them teamed, because that is how it sounded to me.

Read infinity's ISO then and tell me what you think. I'll respond!

As I pointed out before, weller is dodging having to explain his read on us, this time by suggesting someone read us and give their own read, "and then he'll respond". This puts burden of proof on others so he can say "oh yeah that what I was thinking" without having to actually make to effort to find reasons himself. Again, he has no logic of his own because he rushed into a read as scum, so he now has to get others to find reasons that he can then call his own.

we are, which is why i conceded i got a read out of it, but getting information out of you is like pulling teeth, and it doesn't need to be that way. for example, it wasn't clear until just now that you weren't calling them teamed, because that is how it sounded to me.

Read infinity's ISO then and tell me what you think. I'll respond!

i think Infinity hasn't really towntold so far. they're asking a lot of questions and i haven't seen much direction from the slot, as well. i would have expected some follow up from the vote on me. my vote's still there, in any case.

Yeah largely agree. There's also the part where it took them a long time to figure out the correct way to approach me voting them/wanting them dead/being townread by other people

As called earlier, weller's response to chara was to claim he agrees.
Also, a question for weller: how new do you think we are to this game?

I've been ready to eliminate you. That's how the game works yaknow

Really? Because it's not evident at all that you have any real care towards getting us limmed from your posts.

-Protocol

I don’t get your Chara read but it looked to me like bob was scumreading something that read NAI to me. Him claiming it made him suspicious wouldn’t be bad at all because that’s what it looks like Chara’s doing but his scumread on you just seems overstated for what it’s based on. I suppose it’s also possible he could just be bad town but his push on you just seems excessive to me and lumping us in with you pings me as possible chainsawing.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Infinity Zero

Lets try this

This vote feels a little oddly placed. We have all the early game nonsense going on and of all the slots weller decides to vote ours? It doesn't make sense why he singled us out and he never explains it.

Okay goodnight

Don't like the tone of this either.

Hi nancy, protocol is gamma emerald. Noraa isn't in this game. Why do you think you'll have difficulty reading me?

-Inf

Are you actually going to do anything with this information or are you just asking to fill the airwaves though?

That wasn't me asking the question but what's wrong with it? Maybe it'll just end up being noise but you can't tell if you don't ask (at least for that one). Though I do think it would be nice if Nancy defined why she thinks Infinity will be hard to sort, as well as possibly why she mistook me for Noraa.

Not liking bob perfume and vax but that list contains at most 1 scum due to

voting theory.

go on

I get the sense just ignoring Titus will be best for the game regardless of their alignment

This just seems overblown. In further posts weller takes issue with Titus' current approach, so why this comment that seems like he's writing her off for the entire game. In a certain sense it feels like he's discrediting her, which I think scum generally would be invested in doing with how she plays.

Do you think my reads are bad?

I think they're indistinguishable from throwing darts at a board at the moment because you've offered up reasoning that doesn't seem relevant AND you're publicly explaining them all which combines for a nasty distraction in my opinion

I can see how the reads seem like throwing darts, but I feel like it's a bit of a style thing with Titus where she tends to prefer those data-based reads (what with how she focuses on VCA aand doesn't like d1s). So it's pretty much the way she works that is being picked at. In addition it seems like OMGUS driven shade given him being in that suspect pool he responded to saying he'd ignore her, and 138 kinda affirms my sense that he reflexively shaded Titus there in response to her sussing him in particular.

I think smoke and mirrors and infinity something are the two most significant slots to place at the moment.

Which may or may not include purging with extreme passion

I think this post is disingenuous for two reasons. First, he suggests placing us and S&M quickly, but I don't really see anything actually

engaging

with our slots, all he's doing is pushing us with no reasoning set out at all for it. It's a shallow attempt to look like he's sorting but his words don't match his actions in any way. The second issue is his mention of purging us with "burning passion". That doesn't really harmonize with how he's pushed us, yes he's pushed us a lot but it feels like he doesn't really care about it, it's not his goal to push us. And if it's not his goal, then it's a step to some other goal, presumably pushing town and driving a scum agenda. To expand on how he doesn't have real passion in his push, in 144, his response to Vaxkiller voting us is just to pat Vax on the back for doing it. It doesn't read like he's really caring to put in a full try on pushing us.

I am explaining my reads

You're explaining reads but they are not useful because you are applying a book on draughts to a game of canasta

I'm pretty concerned with how weller is dealing with explaining reads. Further down in 208 he says he doesn't feel like explaining his reads makes it easier to track his thought process (or I presume that's what he was saying). Well, why? You have people like Titus and Chara who are actually explaining themselves pretty effectively, and people can actual engage and potentially agree on those explanations, which a) helps build trust since they can see where the other person is coming from (and even if they don't agree the thought process is still out there which can be determined as sensible or not), and b) if someone agrees on a scumread they'll vote with you. weller has been pushing us without giving any real logic, which can gain interest from some but rarely carries weight in actually limming someone. This could be a massive playstyle issue but weller isn't interested in putting up the needed effort to work with the town it seems, which as I'll get into later seems scummy in spots.

No I meant 96/97 whoops

weller keeps picking at that interaction as why we and S&M are scummy, but here's the thing, those posts didn't exist when he dropped his vote onto us. He's trying to retroactively justify his read, if there is a thing he saw before then it's impossible to tell because he's not explaining it, which is why explaining reads is so crucial.

There's evil afoot between Infinity and Smoke and Mirrors I can smell it.

Thar she blows

This doesn't look like a real thought. It seems like someone tried to draw a beautiful sunrise and just created a bunch of spots of color on a page, there's no emotional substance in how weller expresses himself here. With his previous assertion that he wanted to lim us with a burning passion, it seems like he's trying to fake a solving drive that doesn't exist.

I would argue the current gamestate is fine for town.

Why do you think it's bad?

The current gamestate is not very easy to form real reads in. With so many people doing their own nonsense thing, it's hard to actually engage with anyone and have it mean anything. So trying to move out of that makes it easier to form reads, which is pro-town. While I'd say progress has been made we're still not really anywhere near where we should be rn. weller's play has done nothing to really improve gamestate and kinda feels like he's exploiting it to an extent, with his lack of visible logic working into the inscrutable nonsense of the game.

This is always such a silly line of questioning.

Do you think they have a greater chance of being scum than other players in the game? If so, why do you need my reasons?

If no, will me writing some reasons down be a genuine way of you reevaluating? Or is just rereading them yourself enough?

This happens again later, but weller is kinda dodging explaining his own reads by asking a bunch of questions to deflect the point. As has been asserted multiple times, the intent was to sort weller's thought process vs. trying to interpret us. But it seems like weller can't really put out a logic for how he came to scumread us and so strongly, so he has to ask deflecting questions in order to put off the demands to explain himself.

I'm not calling a scumteam with no flips. Merely that those two players have pinged.

This does not click with him saying us and S&M are up to no good. Why are you saying things like that if you're not okay forming associative reads rn?

we are, which is why i conceded i got a read out of it, but getting information out of you is like pulling teeth, and it doesn't need to be that way. for example, it wasn't clear until just now that you weren't calling them teamed, because that is how it sounded to me.

Read infinity's ISO then and tell me what you think. I'll respond!

As I pointed out before, weller is dodging having to explain his read on us, this time by suggesting someone read us and give their own read, "and then he'll respond". This puts burden of proof on others so he can say "oh yeah that what I was thinking" without having to actually make to effort to find reasons himself. Again, he has no logic of his own because he rushed into a read as scum, so he now has to get others to find reasons that he can then call his own.

we are, which is why i conceded i got a read out of it, but getting information out of you is like pulling teeth, and it doesn't need to be that way. for example, it wasn't clear until just now that you weren't calling them teamed, because that is how it sounded to me.

Read infinity's ISO then and tell me what you think. I'll respond!

i think Infinity hasn't really towntold so far. they're asking a lot of questions and i haven't seen much direction from the slot, as well. i would have expected some follow up from the vote on me. my vote's still there, in any case.

Yeah largely agree. There's also the part where it took them a long time to figure out the correct way to approach me voting them/wanting them dead/being townread by other people

As called earlier, weller's response to chara was to claim he agrees.
Also, a question for weller: how new do you think we are to this game?

I've been ready to eliminate you. That's how the game works yaknow

Really? Because it's not evident at all that you have any real care towards getting us limmed from your posts.

-Protocol

I don’t get your Chara read but it looked to me like bob was scumreading something that read NAI to me. Him claiming it made him suspicious wouldn’t be bad at all because that’s what it looks like Chara’s doing but his scumread on you just seems overstated for what it’s based on. I suppose it’s also possible he could just be bad town but his push on you just seems excessive to me and lumping us in with you pings me as possible chainsawing.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Nancy does your tone tend to differ based on your alignment?

-Inf

I don’t know about tone but I think my enthusiasm is greater as town because I really enjoy solving and puzzles and when I’m scum it feels like effort, so I don’t know if that answers your question or not.

I tell everyone this: You can’t reliably read me on 3 things: AtE, derping and activity. However, anyone who’s extemely familiar with my meta - who actually pays attention that is - should be able to reliably read me and they are certain players I would expect to read accurately more than others.

What is Gamma’s read on me? I think you guys mistakenly read something into my derping about Noraa that was literally just that. I didn’t check page 1 and I just auto assumed Noraa was in your hydra for some reason. It really had more to do with my confidence in reading Noraa > you.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It sure is funny that whenever you put people on the to die list they always come around and scumread you in the end:)

I would scumread someone for that if I felt that their read on me was overstated and didn’t make sense to me, so I don’t know why that would surprise you?

[Infinity Zero]

Gamma hasn't talked about you yet. I mostly feel like you sound a lot different from shape of water and much more similar to PyP, like you had a more confident tone in shape of water. I'll see if gamma agrees with me there. It's obvious enough that you're pretty likely to have changed it if there was a real difference, since you seem pretty good at scum. Maybe I'll do a quick meta look though.

-Inf

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It sure is funny that whenever you put people on the to die list they always come around and scumread you in the end:)

I would scumread someone for that if I felt that their read on me was overstated and didn’t make sense to me, so I don’t know why that would surprise you?

I just finished a game where scum!player X told townplayer Y that they shouldn’t even be alive, so I personally get pinged by excessively strong reads like that if they seem excessive to me. It could just be a playstyle thing which is why I’d really like to hear you make a case on Infinity Zero because your extremely strong scumread on them isn’t really making sense to me. So please explain it, thanks.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Gamma hasn't talked about you yet. I mostly feel like you sound a lot different from shape of water and much more similar to PyP, like you had a more confident tone in shape of water. I'll see if gamma agrees with me there. It's obvious enough that you're pretty likely to have changed it if there was a real difference, since you seem pretty good at scum. Maybe I'll do a quick meta look though.

-Inf

How do I sound even remotely here like PyP to you?

You might also want to check out Dung Beetle - both versions.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Gamma hasn't talked about you yet. I mostly feel like you sound a lot different from shape of water and much more similar to PyP, like you had a more confident tone in shape of water. I'll see if gamma agrees with me there. It's obvious enough that you're pretty likely to have changed it if there was a real difference, since you seem pretty good at scum. Maybe I'll do a quick meta look though.

-Inf

How do I sound even remotely here like PyP to you?

You might also want to check out Dung Beetle - both versions.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=34894

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Gamma hasn't talked about you yet. I mostly feel like you sound a lot different from shape of water and much more similar to PyP, like you had a more confident tone in shape of water. I'll see if gamma agrees with me there. It's obvious enough that you're pretty likely to have changed it if there was a real difference, since you seem pretty good at scum. Maybe I'll do a quick meta look though.

-Inf

How do I sound even remotely here like PyP to you?

You might also want to check out Dung Beetle - both versions.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=34894

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=34894

I linked both versions for you. I think comparing this game or pretty much any of my games with The Shape of Water - where you also couldn’t tell I was town - is an unfair comparison because we literally had a blatantly obvious scum slot which was Bulge. That’s not exactly typical.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Gamma hasn't talked about you yet. I mostly feel like you sound a lot different from shape of water and much more similar to PyP, like you had a more confident tone in shape of water. I'll see if gamma agrees with me there. It's obvious enough that you're pretty likely to have changed it if there was a real difference, since you seem pretty good at scum. Maybe I'll do a quick meta look though.

-Inf

How do I sound even remotely here like PyP to you?

You might also want to check out Dung Beetle - both versions.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=34894

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=34894

I linked both versions for you. I think comparing this game or pretty much any of my games with The Shape of Water - where you also couldn’t tell I was town - is an unfair comparison because we literally had a blatantly obvious scum slot which was Bulge. That’s not exactly typical.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=35119

And just to be super generous, I even linked the town game I just finished literally hours ago. Enjoy.

[Infinity Zero]

First dung beetle game reads like this game to me, second one read more like shape of water. (Secret alt game probably not relevant here). Probably NAI

Also I didn't SR you in shape of water I just didn't townlock you but w/e

-Inf

[Twins Akari and Mara]

Mara doesn't like the last link.

Bad vibes, bad vibes

[Infinity Zero]

The fact that she linked it, or what

-Inf

[Twins Akari and Mara]

As far as Charas read on Titus, though, the fact that he brought up that titus could still be scum and telling the truth feels like keeping their options open for later, idk just the feels

Pedit: it's supposed to be a joke, I lost that gamw

[Twins Akari and Mara]

VOTE: bob

Mara wants to drop by here!

[Infinity Zero]

Chara just feels smug to me. It's exactly how DGB felt in yellowstone.

-Inf

[wellermanbob]

Seems like we are approaching the admonish the sheep who can't think properly portion of the game

[Infinity Zero]

has pooky posted yet?
also I do wanna know why you thought I was noraa, nancy
-Protocol