One Night Stand [Game Over]

[Alisae]

given my record i am reticent to ever even speak about scum strategy but it did seem to me that even yesterday alisae your play was driven by some kind of spite

frankly i'm astounded that immediately on day three people didn't suspect you given the whole mafia pt thing (although it's possible i missed this, i didn't read the newest day very closely). i was speaking completely truthfully when i said that the amount of evidence available didn't really warrant the theory.

Mena started it by having a weird read on me.
If he just TR’d me I try to tr him and I don’t need to bus

[unwnd]

I promise when I say what I'm saying it is not a personal matter. I just don't think 'conceding' should be an option in the first place.

When did this start becoming the norm? 10 years of this fucking game and not once did a moderator tell me 'you can just quit if you want'. Usually that meant you replace

Newpaging

[Hopkirk]

you don't have to, it's the same right?

assume Menal lethal - leaves 8 alive with you as only scum.
you kill let's say Pooky - 7 alive
mislethal on uncrowned - 6 alive
kill on me/ABR - 4 alive (you/MT/Kanna/Clidd)


pooky dies
assume Menal lethal - leaves 7 alive with you as only scum
you kill let's say kanna - 6 alive
vote on uncrowned - 5 alive
you kill me/ABR (or you can keep us in if you think you can convince people to vote me) - 3 alive (you/MT/Clidd)

[northsidegal]

given my record i am reticent to ever even speak about scum strategy but it did seem to me that even yesterday alisae your play was driven by some kind of spite

frankly i'm astounded that immediately on day three people didn't suspect you given the whole mafia pt thing (although it's possible i missed this, i didn't read the newest day very closely). i was speaking completely truthfully when i said that the amount of evidence available didn't really warrant the theory.

Mena started it by having a weird read on me.
If he just TR’d me I try to tr him and I don’t need to bus

you escalated a play that you didn't agree with into

essentially

giving yourself and your team's secrets away. i can't really support you given that.

in the absolute worst case scenario—and not to imply that i support this, but i still have to mention it—you could've just tactically replaced out like flavor leaf did. it wasn't

necessary

to drag your team down with you.

[Hopkirk]

(actually swap Clidd/Kanna in the above because he was never getting voted, same results though and no extra vote out needed)
honestly not killing pooky is better for you as it takes you to a 4p lelo instead of a 3p one and, if forced, you can do the kill later.
your win con is Kanna voting MT or Clidd voting MT based on which lelo you prefer either way, alternatively if no pooky kill you can pick lelos with Clidd in too

either way you win on 2 mislethals, one of which wouldn't have been impossible

[unwnd]

I'm not trying to blame Ydrasse either. Clearly there is precedent already established

I really do wanna know

When was 'conceding' an option that became relevant?

[Menalque]

I wasn’t bussing which is why this game went so wrong because you didn’t understand that

YES YOU WERE WHAT

No, I wasn’t, and your continued inability to understand that is your problem and not mine

I had no interest in actually getting you eliminated, I just wanted people to think that we weren’t aligned if I got eliminated D2. Pooky had it basically 100% when he said “I think you’re TvT but you’re going to argue for another 15 pages”. I was always planning to come round to TRing you but then you got so stuck into the idea of bussing me that I couldn’t and you ignored all the attempts I was making to back off from you which meant I also had to double down to try and make sure you’d be able to endgame once I was dead

It got a lot harder once you started TMIing the setup all over the place, as it did when FL managed to get under a lot of susp while I was ill meaning that I needed to bus as NSG was going down

[Alisae]

Yeah, sure. Scum concede. Will post stuff later.

I don't like this. I didn't like it in Xenoblade and I don't like it now

I have to say I also didn't like it in Large Normal 230. I don't get why people just don't play the game out, even if it seems hopeless

I understand the reason yes that in some sense you're not delaying the inevitable but

I wanna see the game played out to it's full completion, you never know what will happen

Holy shit ur so annoying what anything could happen? Ya so another free Miselim on a very townie player will just show up for no reason over reading the game and thinking it’s me which is the next reasonable thing to do? Doubt.

If a game is lost its lost and there’s nothing you can do about it. Conceding is like folding in poker. Why would u play out an unwinnable hand?

Because a game needs to finish to completion and you're selling yourself short. Were you in a literal auto-lose? Probably not. Were you just uncertain that you could convince anyone? Uncertain of your partner? Don't take that experience away from yourself. Nobody wants a consolation prize, and I certainly want the chance to either see all the scum flipped or make a mistake. You basically decided the outcome for everyone.

I was in an auto loss I can’t convince anyone to vote town in F4.

Pedit: clidd votes me over mt and mt votes me over clidd. I don’t see how that doesn’t happen in f3 and just cuz kanna townreads me hard doesn’t mean that she can’t figure out it’s me cuz I’m pretty sure she can

[Hopkirk]

given my record i am reticent to ever even speak about scum strategy but it did seem to me that even yesterday alisae your play was driven by some kind of spite

frankly i'm astounded that immediately on day three people didn't suspect you given the whole mafia pt thing (although it's possible i missed this, i didn't read the newest day very closely). i was speaking completely truthfully when i said that the amount of evidence available didn't really warrant the theory.

Mena started it by having a weird read on me.
If he just TR’d me I try to tr him and I don’t need to bus

... you started that? or at least you hard drove it from what i can see

[northsidegal]

it's clear that you had a lot of grievances this game. with the setup, the mods, and your teammates. some of which seems to extend even beyond the game, at least based on what you said in 2136.

i think it was wrong of you to take those grievances out on your teammates and subsequently the rest of the game at large.

[northsidegal]

I'm not trying to blame Ydrasse either. Clearly there is precedent already established

I really do wanna know

When was 'conceding' an option that became relevant?

i think that nobody would actually disagree with the concept of scum being able to concede at all, at least upon considering all of the arguments.

i am, however, of the opinion that it should probably be a unanimous decision from the scum team. i'm quite certain that in, say, a normal game, if one scum member wanted to concede and the other didn't, it would be wrong (and potentially even rule-breaking / playing against wincon) for that other member to just publicly claim scum and say that they're conceding regardless.

granted, i don't think that the communication with conceding was necessarily an option for alisae and menalque this game, so the scenarios aren't completely comparable. perhaps the request could've been relayed through the mod.

[Alisae]

given my record i am reticent to ever even speak about scum strategy but it did seem to me that even yesterday alisae your play was driven by some kind of spite

frankly i'm astounded that immediately on day three people didn't suspect you given the whole mafia pt thing (although it's possible i missed this, i didn't read the newest day very closely). i was speaking completely truthfully when i said that the amount of evidence available didn't really warrant the theory.

Mena started it by having a weird read on me.
If he just TR’d me I try to tr him and I don’t need to bus

you escalated a play that you didn't agree with into

essentially

giving yourself and your team's secrets away. i can't really support you given that.

in the absolute worst case scenario—and not to imply that i support this, but i still have to mention it—you could've just tactically replaced out like flavor leaf did. it wasn't

necessary

to drag your team down with you.

honestly Idunno what u wanted me to do it seems like a lost cause regardless.
If I rep out then someone else has to deal with that mess it doesn’t change the outcome.
Why would u give a doomed slot to another player? I don’t get that and it’s just not something I feel good about.

[Hopkirk]

i feel bad for menal now yeah and agree you should have replaced out rather than concede. it is definitely less fun for the town not to see the game to completion and it outright isn't playing to wincon. like i prefer town to what i assume scum is like, but the game only works if people do play scum when randed it.
i also think you flung an over the top amount of attacks at Ydrasse (a first time mod) attacking the setup/moderating in several pages of full capitals when the setup wasn't especially out of the ordinary

[Menalque]

I'm not trying to blame Ydrasse either. Clearly there is precedent already established

I really do wanna know

When was 'conceding' an option that became relevant?

It’s ydrasse’s place to address this but I believe she won’t be upset with me for saying she felt that the game integrity had been irrevocably damaged by the time she accepted, which was probably true but I was still gonna play on because I don’t think conceding is ever justified outside of the game being mechanically lost

[Menalque]

i also think you flung an over the top amount of attacks at Ydrasse (a first time mod) attacking the setup/moderating in several pages of full capitals when the setup wasn't especially out of the ordinary

I would second this

[Hopkirk]

i was initially under the impression menal had a similar stance to you that they didn't want to continue really in the hood-qt, now that they've said they actively wanted the game to continue i have a different view of the concede to initially

[Alisae]

I don’t know why Mena just didn’t question me being town. We were i a good position on night 1. He spent the whole game making it easier for town to elim scum when you shouldn’t be doing that.

[Menalque]

perhaps the request could've been relayed through the mod.

This is what should have been done and I would have declined, I wanted to play it out

Also, replacing into a doomed slot isn’t so bad because at least you can respect yourself for trying the best you can despite knowing which outcome is 99% likely

[Alisae]

Its always just a lose lose situation for me I think.
Pedit why would anyone want to replace into a slot to find out it’s doomed? How is that fun?

[Alisae]

Like great u replace in and find out that u can’t win due to things that were out of ur control
Why play that out? I don’t get it.

[Hopkirk]

Its always just a lose lose situation for me I think.
Pedit why would anyone want to replace into a slot to find out it’s doomed? How is that fun?

like north did? FL's slot was in a worse state then you'd have been. unless you're in a lot of other games and it'd be an elletell of a replace out

[northsidegal]

honestly Idunno what u wanted me to do it seems like a lost cause regardless.
If I rep out then someone else has to deal with that mess it doesn’t change the outcome.
Why would u give a doomed slot to another player? I don’t get that and it’s just not something I feel good about.

as a player in a mafia game you have an obligation to play towards your win condition. if you feel as if you can't do that, for whatever reason—illness, you got way busier than you expected, someone you've blacklisted, whatever—a lot of people would agree that you should replace out.

now, even that statement alone is somewhat controversial, and we could argue about tactical replace-outs and what is and isn't an actually valid reason to replace. the difference in replacement culture between mafiascum and other mafia websites is evidence enough of this, but that isn't what i want to talk about. my point is that, regardless of your opinion on replace-outs, almost anyone would certainly agree that it would still be better to replace out than to do what you did and essentially throw the game.

Its always just a lose lose situation for me I think.
Pedit why would anyone want to replace into a slot to find out it’s doomed? How is that fun?

a lot of people enjoy trying to salvage those situations. guiltylion, to name someone off the top of my head.

it's also exactly what

i

did, in this game. i might agree with you that flavor leaf tactically replaced out, but i still would have preferred him to do that than to concede against his teammates' wishes.

[unwnd]

I'm not trying to blame Ydrasse either. Clearly there is precedent already established

I really do wanna know

When was 'conceding' an option that became relevant?

i think that nobody would actually disagree with the concept of scum being able to concede at all, at least upon considering all of the arguments.

i am, however, of the opinion that it should probably be a unanimous decision from the scum team. i'm quite certain that in, say, a normal game, if one scum member wanted to concede and the other didn't, it would be wrong (and potentially even rule-breaking / playing against wincon) for that other member to just publicly claim scum and say that they're conceding regardless.

granted, i don't think that the communication with conceding was necessarily an option for alisae and menalque this game, so the scenarios aren't completely comparable. perhaps the request could've been relayed through the mod.

I believe it's fine if it is literal mechanical loss, and yeah if there's absolute consensus. If there is a will, there's a way. I think OPs should either reflect the option for a faction to concede or that you stay until the game is over. Don't wanna play? Replace please.

[Hopkirk]

Hey Alisae how would you have felt if you were scum in this game HEctic just modded:

7 town, 6 scum (13p)
if scum and lethaled d1 scum lose. two votes before first night (bussing looses the game)
assuming no scum lethal in the two d1 votes scum must pick 4 of the scum to kill (leaving 2 scum, 5 town)
next day people can form 2 pairs of dancers who are immune to the nightkill and there's a lethal. so if town all dance together scum may be forced to self-kill, and scum can't guarantee a kill on someone they want here
then continues with a nightly kill at (4-1 or 3-2)

[Alisae]

If there is a will, there's a way.

Ya I’m sure u can just will the other townie slots that make no sense for them to be scum to vote each other in F4 yep totally.