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[Luca Blight]

I've seen plenty of angry scum so I couldn't disagree more tbh.

And the emotional aspect between the two games isn't comparable because they were two entirely different contexts.

Do you have any other reasoning that doesn't involve being hard/angry?

[ejjinami]

and that was not the only point I made. If you think lunar is scum, please comment on my old read on them.
I posted it in a spoiler above

I'm really not in the mood to read walls of text right now, but at a glance it seems to all be based around the same thing - being hard, aggressive etc. I've already explained why this isn't a reliable reason to TR someone. If there's something unrelated to this in your reasoning then please highlight it for me.

does being chaotic + spontaneous = agressive?

if not, this is one of the main reasons I town-read them for.

Another reason is good votes (trying to check stuff out at the beginning of the game instead of just voting, explaining their reads and passively waiting for stuff to happen. Townies need to switch their vote to figure out the wagon progression+make scum feel pressure. Scum don’t really do that as often from my experience because it’s more stressful and they’d have to control their progression more)

saying that the “scum are sitting back and laughing at the townies” while actively trying to change the main wagons is a townie thing as well.
(especially since at this point there could have been only 1 scum among them)

and I don’t think scum!lunar would have called town!frogger a “liability”, when from his pov town!frogger should have correctly scum-read the entire or majority of the scum-team.

Lunar doesn’t act as caught scum, didn’t seem to be discouraged by the scum-reads on you/bug/mom
they are STILL acting good and being direct despite being close to lock town for a long time D1
they’re just keeping up a natural front for a LONG time
If there were moments when they would have tried sucking up to anyone here, I surely don’t remember them.
Not showing their scum tells for a long time and acting raw/natural most of the game already makes them townie imo

Even if my singular reasons for town-reading them weren’t that AI, keeping it up for so long really shouldn’t be that easy
Especially since their last scum game was so different

they’re just town

[ejjinami]

And the emotional aspect between the two games isn't comparable because they were two entirely different contexts.

you could undermine any meta by saying “but the context was different”

yet meta is still being used as a tool.

The best meta reads are those based on attitude, not exact posts.
Look at their general attitude and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

and again, their emotions felt raw even before they got scum-read and after it all ended
I liked that one moment in particular but that doesn’t mean that was the only one I was talking about
it just works

if you don’t want to look through stuff now, don’t worry. There’s still time
and it’s not like lunar is anywhere close to getting lynched today
so don’t respond to this if you don’t want to. Just remember to check it later, please.

[ejjinami]

let me repeat this, it’s not like I’ll get angry if you just ignore my posts rn and chill or if you respond to others who might post here later (without responding to me first)

this really doesn’t matter unless you start talking about scum-reading lunar.
Only then I’ll ask you to talk to me again.

so if you’re not feeling like it, take your time. Maybe rest a bit if you need it
the day phases are long as heck so we’re not in a hurry

[Luca Blight]

You're specifically talking about Lunar's reaction to being E-1 as your main reason for SR'ing them, and comparing it to their Town game when they were never scumread at all. You just can't reliably compare these two scenarios.

I think Lunar's D1 posting in this game was extremely scummy. Their D2 stuff has been a lot better looking, but they've shown they are able to make nice looking posts as scum before.

This is their first time out of the Newbie queue, so I think they planned to sit back and ease into the game. When they got called out and subsequently run up to E-1, they responded angrily, because they didn't feel it was justified. They then amended their behaviour (Like Frogster said) and managed to find their feet a bit. That's my theory right now.

Anyway, I really want to elim Bugs before I get too deep into this.

[Luca Blight]

For TR'ing them* I mean

[Luca Blight]

And compared it to their previous scum** game

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

If needed I can claim, but I prefer not to obviously. I'm not really willing to claim when half the people voting me haven't stated any reasons though. There's time, why don't the people voting me try to talk to me a little?

That’s a bit hard when you repeatedly avoid questions.

What are you reads?

I've shared my thoughts. If you aren't even going to bother reading what I write we aren't going to get very far.

And if you’re not gonna bother to engage with me about your thoughts then what do you expect me (or anyone else who SR’s you) to do here exactly?

You’re crying woe is me but not pushing in any direction. Have any of your reads changed recently? How do you feel about a Bugs elim?

Don't ask questions I've already answered. Read what I've written already. This isn't real engagement. You aren't doing anything. You're trying to look busy.

I fount Lunar's reaction here to be scum-indicative, because they were moaning about how no-one was engaging with them, and yet when I do engage they were just like 'read my posts', even though their previous posts said next to nothing. I realise Town get salty too, but I feel as though Lunar would be more willing to engage here and at least talk about their reads if they were genuine.

[ejjinami]

the fact that they weren’t willing to engage proves my point
it’s not that “town would want to explain themselves” it’s that “scum would be too stressed not to engage”

Their attitude towards the game as scum is: “I have to be townie or else I’ll get lynched”
their attitude towards the game as town is: “I’ll just be myself”

you can confirm this in their ISO.

let me ask another question. Besides you scum-reading them for not cooperating, being salty, etc (which you already said both alignments tend to do), did you see lunar showing any signs of him sucking up to players as they did in their last game?
You can verify the scum tells I was talking about and I don’t think they showed it in this game in general.

If so maybe, if they improved enough not to show the same scum-tells again (despite there being little time in between), the things you’re scum-reading them for rn aren’t actually scummy?

[Luca Blight]

I don't see why scum being stressed out would mean they would definitely engage. Lunar didn't look as though they had much of a grip of the game at that point, so it would have been hard for them to engage under pressure, and much easier to reply 'read my posts', even though they say next to nothing.

When did Lunar suck up to players in their previous scum game? I don't remember that.

[Luca Blight]

And I scumread them more right now for their connections to Bugs and PoE.

[Luca Blight]

The example I gave was just countering your point about how Lunar's reaction to pressure was supposedly Townie.

[ejjinami]

The example I gave was just countering your point about how Lunar's reaction to pressure was supposedly Townie.

I just simply disagree
a player who tends to be nicer and care more as scum, suddenly being an ass is more likely to be AI than not.
Regardless of the situation, their personality is constant

IF their meta clearly shows that being rude and chaotic is not something they do and if they behave differently the entiiiiiire game, for a loooong time, this should be AI imo.

the unexplained progression, chaotic read changes, being uncooperative, etc, are all signs of them not bothering to suck up to other people.

When did Lunar suck up to players in their previous scum game? I don't remember that.

they were just nice. They explained all their reads and interacted with players in the typical way people would expect from him.

I’m exaggerating by calling it “sucking up” but from a scum’s perspective, they were being nice and reasonable to make other players like them... (=sucking up / trying to be likable)

Not following this motive at all = townie.

Again, you don’t have to do this now but compare their metas, please. Try to decide for yourself what his attitude towards the game was as scum and I think you’ll easily notice that his general attitude here was way different.

I’m talking about the general attitude, not specific posts.

[Luca Blight]

I think it boils down to this:

Lunar has been as 'nice' as they were in their previous game, apart from when they've been put under pressure and SR, which never occurred in their previous scum game.

You obviously have your unique way of looking at the game, and we're not going to see eye to eye on this point any time soon.

[ejjinami]

lunar has not been as nice as they were in the previous game and you are scum-reading them for it.
They are way more chaotic here and are not trying to control themselves nor try to appear good/reasonable.

What I call a townie difference in attitude, you call scum-motivated.
and I’m not talking only about that one moment.
that’s what this boils down to

w/e
I’ll just wait for someone to look through the links I posted and then we’ll talk

[ejjinami]

for those who don’t want to read, here’s a TLDR of this this entire conversation

Spoiler:

luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no
ejj: yes
luca: no

[Luca Blight]

They were as nice, until they were at E-1. I was already scumreading them before they were ever being ‘not nice’.

You seem to believe that scum don’t get angry, but I’ve seen so many instances of scum being aggressive and angry. I just had a game where a newer player townread someone for giving up, as he believed giving up when your elimination is near is a townie thing to do, and we had a similar disagreement. I was proven right on that occasion.

I’m not 100% that Lunar is scum and really want to elim Bugs before I dig deeper, but please don’t rule them out based on such reasoning.

[ejjinami]

Sigh
You are wrong about both things you said.
there is a difference in "niceness" or the level of their care to make themself look townie, which can be easily noticed by analyzing how the push their reads.

And I never said that JUST being angry makes anyone scum or town

W/e
This conversation is tiring us both, let's just stop

[Luca Blight]

Ok. Just vote Bugs and we can figure out who the partner is on D4.

[ejjinami]

The fact that I'm discussing stuff peacefully doesn't mean that I townread you.

I'm still in uni, I'll finish looking through bug's and your ISOs after I get back home. I have some notes on a computer there

So the answer is no.
If you want to hammer him, do it yourself. My deal hasn't changed.

[Lunar Martian]

Never close to being eliminated until the Tracker had a guilty on them, anyway.

That's true in one game, but in my other scum game I was put to E-1 Day 1, saved by a claim, and suspicion remained on me throughout the game, but the claim saved me.

[Lunar Martian]

Have people said what they want to say today?

[Lunar Martian]

@mod

Could we get a prod on Galron?

I'll wait for Galron and Joqiza to post before hammer. I believe everyone else who is alive has posted recently.

[Lunar Martian]

Other than bugs who is conspicuously absent.

[Datisi]

Prodding Galron and bugspray.