DBZ: Cell Games [Over]

[Battle Mage]

So you think I might be scum gambiting.
To...protect my scum partner or something?

Erm, I figure it's more to protect yourself right? But yes, I do think that's eminently possible.

But I think I want to work out what the shizz is going on with Oil and Flea before worrying about it. Do you have your result yet?

I don't get the result until they're both in the arena.

Ah is there a world where you don't use it today then? I.e. save it for tomorrow when it might be more useful

Risky as it relies on a protective, but I dunno...

[Battle Mage]

Which is why I made a post about hurting and healing as a way to communicate what my results were.

why cant you just SAY what your results are?

[Firebringer]

someone needs to hammer this nom

[Bell]

Bell, if you're town - the most helpful thing here would be to talk me through the rationale for your claim.

I think in the current game state where flea and Oil are being pushed if they really are town and 3p respectively than my reads are very off and I'd rather know if I'm being taken for a ride sooner than later.
I also want to take back control of the game from scum.
I want to recenter the conversation toward the game aspect of this game instead of personal issues players are having with one another.
I think that town have more night actions than the scum team and that any boost to their abilities is probably more in our favor than not.
I think we should play optimally at all times, while this scenario is less optimal than having 2 scum in the ring.

Arguably, if Flea and Oil are both scum this would also be an excellent use my ability to kill 2 scum consecutively and not allow flea to escape.

You're not wrong that I could "keep quiet" or what not until the next day phase, but I tend to think the more information town has early the better choices they'll make because they're more informed and have more time to think on it.

Also, I'm not proactive scum. So the chances of me gambiting here are between 0 and zilch.

[Battle Mage]

Oil has to activate their ability every night for 3 days to achieve their win condition.
They can't refuse to use their ability according to their claim and this is easily verified tomorrow whether they lied abbout their abilities if in the unlikly event they survive to tommorrow.

You really think scum would kill Oil-3p?

and their claim was explicitly non-verifiable for tonight. They said one of their mandatory abilities has no action. So they could survive tomorrow with no verification, and then we have the same conundrum.

I am NOT giving them 2 more dayphases because they claimed scumsiding 3p under pressure, having acted scummy as heck beforehand.

I'm baffled, and because I don't get it, I'm not entertaining the idea. The most likely scenario is simply that Oil is scum.

[Bell]

Which is why I made a post about hurting and healing as a way to communicate what my results were.

why cant you just SAY what your results are?

Because you aren't allowed to talk during the arena fight, you can only hurt or heal.

[Bell]

And this would be the equivalent of me saying exactly that.

If I hurt both of them both have the scum indicator.
Eliminate them one after the other.
If one is negative I'll heal that player.

It's not a complicated communication process.

[Bell]

Oil has to activate their ability every night for 3 days to achieve their win condition.
They can't refuse to use their ability according to their claim and this is easily verified tomorrow whether they lied abbout their abilities if in the unlikly event they survive to tommorrow.

You really think scum would kill Oil-3p?

and their claim was explicitly non-verifiable for tonight. They said one of their mandatory abilities has no action. So they could survive tomorrow with no verification, and then we have the same conundrum.

I am NOT giving them 2 more dayphases because they claimed scumsiding 3p under pressure, having acted scummy as heck beforehand.

I'm baffled, and because I don't get it, I'm not entertaining the idea. The most likely scenario is simply that Oil is scum.

No, I'm saying if they're 3p and flea is town, we kill oil.
If they're both positive for it, we kill oil.

The only scenario in which we let oil live till tomorrow is if they're negative for the indicator and flea is positive for the indicator.

[Bell]

If they're both positive for it, then you kill oil next.
Or kill flea, I dunno, it doesn't really matter. I guess if Flea can hide out as scum you'd kill them first.
Point being I'm just trying to optimize this phase.
You're not wrong that in the long term this isn't optimal for town unless the resu;ts are good.
But I'm weighing other stuff.

[Bell]

Oil has to activate their ability every night for 3 days to achieve their win condition.
They can't refuse to use their ability according to their claim and this is easily verified tomorrow whether they lied abbout their abilities if in the unlikly event they survive to tommorrow.

You really think scum would kill Oil-3p?

and their claim was explicitly non-verifiable for tonight. They said one of their mandatory abilities has no action. So they could survive tomorrow with no verification, and then we have the same conundrum.

I am NOT giving them 2 more dayphases because they claimed scumsiding 3p under pressure, having acted scummy as heck beforehand.

I'm baffled, and because I don't get it, I'm not entertaining the idea. The most likely scenario is simply that Oil is scum.

My ability would confirm them as 3p. This isn't hard.

[Bell]

someone needs to hammer this nom

VOTE: Flea

Remember.

If I heal them both, they're both negative for the scum indicator. And you vote Oil.
If I hurt both of them they're both positive for the scum indicator and you kill both in whatever order you'd like, it doesn't matter. But they're both probably scum (well, oil is definitely scum in this scenario).
If I hurt Flea, and heal Oil. Kill flea.
if I hurt oil and heal flea, kill oil, and flea is town.

Got it?

[Battle Mage]

Bell, if you're town - the most helpful thing here would be to talk me through the rationale for your claim.

I think in the current game state where flea and Oil are being pushed if they really are town and 3p respectively than my reads are very off and I'd rather know if I'm being taken for a ride sooner than later.
I also want to take back control of the game from scum.
I want to recenter the conversation toward the game aspect of this game instead of personal issues players are having with one another.
I think that town have more night actions than the scum team and that any boost to their abilities is probably more in our favor than not.
I think we should play optimally at all times, while this scenario is less optimal than having 2 scum in the ring.

Arguably, if Flea and Oil are both scum this would also be an excellent use my ability to kill 2 scum consecutively and not allow flea to escape.

You're not wrong that I could "keep quiet" or what not until the next day phase, but I tend to think the more information town has early the better choices they'll make because they're more informed and have more time to think on it.

Also, I'm not proactive scum. So the chances of me gambiting here are between 0 and zilch.

My counter-argument would be, we're 2 town down, half the game has claimed already, and we're shedding PRs like I don't know what. Your role is useful for sorting people we might not want to elim. If Flea and Oil both come up clear...we certainly still elim Oil anyway (because at worst he's 3P, and there's an added bonus here if he's scum that your role is disproved and you're his buddy). If both come up as scum, it achieved nothing because we would always have elimmed them both anyway. Flea has agreed to self-kill so if that doesn't happen tonight, they are elimmed tomorrow anyway.

I appreciate the motivations you set out above, but I also honestly don't see how you got from those motivations to the idea that claiming was good. You claimed to recenter the conversation away from personal issues? I mean, you claimed at the one time in the game where nobody was fighting. You think town has more night actions than scum...based on what? nothing role related or publically available. Man I dunno what to say. Occam's razor says your claim is fake because you didn't have any logical town reason to make it, and the reasons you've come up with (which are largely around a vague emotional sense of "taking back control of the game from scum") don't hold water.

I also don't buy the self-meta. Depending on your team, I'm confident you could cook up a fakeclaim and see it through!

[Bell]

I'm very confident I couldn't.

Are you saying that Flavorleaf and cookie weren't fighting.

[Bell]

Sure, let's go with that.
My claim is fake.
Don't worry about it.
You're scum claiming if you don't follow my directions tho.

[Battle Mage]

someone needs to hammer this nom

VOTE: Flea

Remember.

If I heal them both, they're both negative for the scum indicator. And you vote Oil.
If I hurt both of them they're both positive for the scum indicator and you kill both in whatever order you'd like, it doesn't matter. But they're both probably scum (well, oil is definitely scum in this scenario).
If I hurt Flea, and heal Oil. Kill flea.
if I hurt oil and heal flea, kill oil, and flea is town.

Got it?

I'm fine with all of the above. I think I want you and Superbowl under the microscope tomorrow, depending on flips.

[Battle Mage]

Sure, let's go with that.
My claim is fake.
Don't worry about it.
You're scum claiming if you don't follow my directions tho.

...I think I disagreed with your earlier directions which were flawed. Your revised directions are....completely obvious but agreeable.

So with respect, no - nothing about not following you is remotely akin to 'scum-claiming'. I'd actually be sympathetic with anyone who takes a view that your claim is unlikely to be true, and therefore doesn't follow your directions (although I won't be going to that extreme). Essentially you're lucky that I'm happy elimming either Oil or Flea today.

I feel genuinely sad saying your claim is fake, because it might be true, but it just doesn't make any sense for it to be true. But I don't wanna be mean, so I'll just go with I don't buy it.

[Battle Mage]

I'm very confident I couldn't.

Are you saying that Flavorleaf and cookie weren't fighting.

not when you claimed?

[Bell]

I'm very confident I couldn't.

Are you saying that Flavorleaf and cookie weren't fighting.

not when you claimed?

This is pedantic. I won't claim literally ontop of an argument, because that would mean I barely considered it.
I spent a day thinking about it. I think this move is not optimal, but it's not egregiously bad play. Just suboptimal imo.
Rather, it's optimal if I could only use this ability today. Suboptimal if I could use this ability whenever.

But maybe not.
I don't know.

[Bell]

Completely obvious, clear directions are the only good directions.
They're there to direct.

[Battle Mage]

Oil has to activate their ability every night for 3 days to achieve their win condition.
They can't refuse to use their ability according to their claim and this is easily verified tomorrow whether they lied abbout their abilities if in the unlikly event they survive to tommorrow.

You really think scum would kill Oil-3p?

and their claim was explicitly non-verifiable for tonight. They said one of their mandatory abilities has no action. So they could survive tomorrow with no verification, and then we have the same conundrum.

I am NOT giving them 2 more dayphases because they claimed scumsiding 3p under pressure, having acted scummy as heck beforehand.

I'm baffled, and because I don't get it, I'm not entertaining the idea. The most likely scenario is simply that Oil is scum.

My ability would confirm them as 3p. This isn't hard.

You're making it harder than it needs to be. That goes for everyone with these botched/half-hearted claims.

Oil-conf3p probably doesn't get NKed. Even if you claim they are 3p today, we have 2 issues:

1. We have no clue if their claimed abilities are legit. they essentially claimed repentant scum-siding 3p, but who knows.
2. Them being 3p relies on trusting your claim, which I don't.

So I think I probably still consider elimming Oil in all cases today or tomorrow. If you claim Red on Flea, I'll fall in line and do Flea first.

[Battle Mage]

Completely obvious, clear directions are the only good directions.
They're there to direct.

I don't disagree, but because you were just telling people how to follow a cop-claim with a threat that not doing so amounted to a scumclaim, your ask basically sounded like:

Trust my claim.
If you don't trust me, you are confscum.

Which doesn't come across great.

[Bell]

1. They didn't sound repentant in the slightest. They never even bargained for their lives. As for whether their claim is true or not, I can only confirm they're 3p. I can't confirm their abilities. I think their play is in line with their claim. I also think, that in general, their claim wasn't going to save them unless somebody weird like me came along and bothered trying to optimize it to make the scum team sweat if their claim was true.
2. There's little reason for me to put my position at risk for a botch claim here as scum because I was comfortably town read.
3. I don't expect trust, I expect you to read the game and deduce that I'm town and then deduce I'm not lying about my claim.

[Bell]

There's just so very little reason for me not just to follow the flea is scum, Oil is scum route.

Even if they were both my scum partners, I'd be writing out a will and doing nothing while crying softly into my pillow then come up with this kinda gambit.
If you think my town game sucks, wait until you meet my scum game.
Oh wait, you did.
I still don't know how I fool you guys. I think you just kind of like me and it bias's you.

[Battle Mage]

I'm very confident I couldn't.

Are you saying that Flavorleaf and cookie weren't fighting.

not when you claimed?

This is pedantic. I won't claim literally ontop of an argument, because that would mean I barely considered it.
I spent a day thinking about it. I think this move is not optimal, but it's not egregiously bad play. Just suboptimal imo.
Rather, it's optimal if I could only use this ability today. Suboptimal if I could use this ability whenever.

But maybe not.
I don't know.

I don't think it's pedantic. You said one reason for your claim was to stop the personal arguments and get the game back on track, but it already was before you claimed. Hence your justification is not valid. Your defence above is that you made the decision to claim a day earlier, and despite the fact your justification for claiming had gone/diminished, you still claimed nonetheless and used this as a reason for doing so.

I don't think arguing about the merits at length is very helpful, but suffice to say I think if I'm town in your shoes, I don't claim there, and none of your reasons would even slightly convince me otherwise. So that's just my opinion, rather than an objective assessment of the correct play. I'm torn don't get me wrong. My gut says you're town, but that claim...bleh. I guess we deal with it later anyway.

[Bell]

I don't disagree, people are fairly predisposed to trying to come up with the absolute best play rather than a suboptimal one.