Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[Enchant]

Call me a vigilante cause I killed chat

I CC Vigilante.

I CC Enchant, I'm the real Enchant

I CC CC.

I CC the use of spaces

You won this one.

[Spartan117]

I am currently working on my re-read through on 12/29 so far

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1-11

Laki is a volcanic fissure in southern Iceland. In 1783 the fissure erupted violently and continuously for 8 months, pouring out basalt lava and clouds of poisonous gas, which contaminated the soil. About half the livestock in Iceland died and most of the year's crops were destroyed. Twenty villages were destroyed outright, and Iceland's population was decimated, losing about 25%. The effects were not isolated to Iceland. A global temperature drop, and 120 million tons of sulfur dioxide also caused crop failures in Europe and may have been the cause of droughts in Northern Africa and India.

Enchant

(3): flow trap, esotericzoomer, quiet

Fredrick A Campbell

(2): Prism, Salsabil Faria

esotericzoomer

(1): Spartan117

Prism

(1): Fredrick A Campbell

Not Voting

(2): Enchant, floo

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 23, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-01-22 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[flow trap]

VOTE: Prism

Will most likely not stay on this but I want a 3-way tie dynamic

[quiet]

Any particular Prism suspicious? Or is this literally just a voting for data play

[flow trap]

Any particular Prism suspicious? Or is this literally just a voting for data play

Are you asking me why Prism over EZ?

[quiet]

I think I’m still trying to determine if I ever elim outside of Enchant today. This feels like one of those poker hands you know might be bad, but there’s just too much equity to ever fold.

Sure! That’s a better question than the one I was asking.

[flow trap]

Pettiness

[floo]

VOTE: Prism

Will most likely not stay on this but I want a 3-way tie dynamic

Why? Do you want to prevent a Fredrick or Enchant wagon?

[flow trap]

Fredrick yes, but I don't see how it's preventing either when I have

★ Unlimited Vote Changes ★

[Prism]

Don't have time to really read today, prefer the Spartan vote to Enchant one. I'm probably not going to get more out of Frederick, safebet was top scumread but will wait on replacement. Might swap vote tomorrow, might keep it.

Can you explain your read of me compared to Enchant, why am I the better vote? Why do you think I am scum?

Why was Safebet your top scumread? Personally I he is a townread of mine I'm going to have to re-evaluate once he is replaced.

Hey, I'm really sorry I couldn't get to this yesterday.

Enchant and you are both kind of dart throw gut reads. Enchant was pretty comfortable at the start and his thought processes have mostly been fine in my book, the questioning floo in 150 is one example. esoteric was right that he was a bit fillery but in context I think he's just conversing, not really going out of his way. The worst thing he's done to me is put flow trap at E-2....which was fine.

With you I didn't like the explanation for the "I feel like there's at least 1 scum in these two" comment about Salsabil/flow trap. Your explanation seems to just suggest Salsabil town and flow trap scum-and flow trap wasn't even in your top reads and you were voting outside.

Declaring something as likely TvS is one of the few things I ask about immediately as a hard rule. It's not a superb tell, but it's great to force people to justify it immediately regardless. As scum it forces you to justify it rather than chain miselims/let the 1v1 continue without interdiction. As town I need to get you to drill down and pick which one is scum, or realize neither have to be, instead of leaning on one of the easiest bad assumptions to make in the game. You were my third vote choice so you'd be more of a compromise than my first choice, if that's what you're worried about.

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

[Prism]

His post 136 gives me townie vibes about him first, very detailed about what he thinks and why he thinks; His interaction with me in post 266 indicates that he was trying to understand my point of view; His interaction with you also indicates that he was trying to understand you better; Post 339 is constructive, also very detailed, indicates that he takes our 1v1 conversation seriously (though I think you're a town most probably, despite being a pain in the *** ); His conversation with

Fredrick A Campbell

gives me town vibes too, I agree with post 359 for this matter; His interaction with

esotericzoomer

(specially, post 547 and 560) gives me some new perspective to think but I still townread

esotericzoomer

at the moment.

Rereading 136 I agree and think this post was better than I gave it credit for in my early readthroughs. I'd caution townreading 339 in that this came more from me grilling him on it than organically.

I actually concur on 547/560 being a lot better than I gave credit for at first glance.

I went into this with the intention of kind of taking down the TR but Spartan can actually move up here.

[Prism]

Spartan, I get why you scumread Esoteric at the time of 547/560, but I think esoteric had a point in that he could make jokes about being townread and such while pushing his scumreads simultaneously. You have a point that he should probably fight harder for a top SR before settling for a lower scumread but do you think this is implausible as town?

I kind of have the polar opposite reaction to his early reaction to the E-1 which is unfortunate but I found the wall insanely town. Writing for its own sake isn't town but you can see him actively using the math as a way to put the pieces together, he's not just throwing one liner reactions out. This was at a time when he would naturally have needed to sort as town but was far from getting eliminated as scum.

I guess a good starting point here for working together might be: Why do you think safebet is town?

[Prism]

You are too talkative for quiet person, quiet. Welcome.

About Prism. I want to think he is town for now. There's reasons stated before.
But 10 years of experience is something. So, he can hide well. I will think he is townie, but watch his steps.

In general you're right to be cautious! I'm primarily a chat player, and we tend to have tone down to a science. Just reading and thinking through the game doesn't make me town, either.

That said, I am human like anyone else, and if I'm scum I have to be opportunistic or manipulative at some point.

[Prism]

Suddenly I am very glad that I walked back my Spartan over Enchant vote suggestion before reading page 28 LMAO

VOTE: Enchant

I don't think there's any world in which Esoteric or flow trap flip scum here with this.

[Prism]

For quiet, unfortunately you can't really answer for your predecessor but for why I scumread your slot, the two posts I link to Spartan here explain it:

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

Did you have any scumreads after rereading? I think the only reads you've outed so far have been townreads one/Salsabil, and I think flow trap, Esoteric, and Spartan are all worth taking a look at.

I get that it's a lot to read in a day, and you will probably have time overnight if you don't get to it today. Welcome, and I'm glad you find me town and that you're also a Kacey Musgraves fan! I'm a big fan of the cover and looped the album for most of 2019. It's still a favorite. I wouldn't really try to answer for your predecessor here; if you're town hopefully I can see it at some point from your own play.

[Prism]

Looks like the post links didn't copy over, here you go:

For safebet, I know he's been replaced and will get to that in a bit, but I didn't like the clashing motivations he had early on and the read wall he gave. (Post links are my explanations). I never got explanations from him on any of these and now I never will.

[quiet]

Thanks prism! Just got home, going to relax for a bit, grab a hot chocolate, and read over what is already looking like a really interesting game.

If you want to read a game with scumSafebet and townMe, go check out newbie 2045. I’ll do my best not to let his takes infect mine too much, but I respect his play, and will likely make full use of his reads as a resource.

Knowing his alignment makes it easier to trust them for me; but obviously I don’t know which reads were fully open, which were more reaction testy, etc. I’ll form my own takes, but I’m interested to see how they correspond to his, and where they diverge.

No re-read, not fully caught up, hot takes on

Flow trap: towny vibes. I can think of some reasons why scum do the “I’m going to make 3 even wagons and see what happens” play, but I think it’s something town does with more frequency. This is pure gut, along with some other interactions I recall liking, but couldn’t quote if you asked. I’ll be looking to make a better read when I go back to the start on my laptop. Flow trap also pings me as experienced, which means I have to determine if I’m able to note AI stuff from them day1 at all.

Esoteric: I don’t even recall the slot. That’s not great on my end, I should probably remember at least something about every slot. Either I was just very distracted during my first casual read, or they’re lurky. Without going back, that leans scum to me, but that’s by far my worst impression.

Spartan: I think my take on Spartan is probably colored by all the other takes I’ve seen about Spartan. Without looking back, null. Nothing pinged me so hard I took note of it, I remember being interested in some of their back and forths, I just don’t feel like I know enough to give a good impression rn.

I’ll keep those three in mind when going through my first formal read!

[quiet]

the two posts I link to Spartan here explain it:

I saw these, and agree that I will likely not be able to address them. I have no idea what his “clashing motivations” were, though I’m vaugly excited to see if I can re-construct them. Call it a stretch goal. Probably won’t be in any way accurate or useful, but I think I’ll write them down and PM him after the game to see if I was right or way off.

Maybe the read list will solve itself, as people flip. I’ll be annotating his with mine, and noting where I agree and disagree.

Though frankly, I’m a newbie too. What is the most productive way for me to engage as town? This game has, like, three players whose style I’m already interested in adopting bits and pieces of. The readability (as in legibility) of this game is great, in a way that my posts just...are not. I’m too rambly.

[quiet]

I’ll keep an eye on the thread if anyone has real-time questions, but otherwise, expect an update when I’ve caught up! Maybe a few waypoint posts along the way.

[flow trap]

Not experienced enough to know what I'm even doing as scum

Really good town though

[Spartan117]

Currently doing a read through, going to put my thoughts for each player with my read on them as I progress through the posts, and I'll note any posts of interest, again if anyone has any questions on anything I have put here or any questions about the game in general please ask. (note: I'm gonna post this now before anything else happens and the days ends and the thread gets locked I have read through it all but wish to spend more time evaluating the last 3-5 pages again properly, and also its nearly 3am and I need to get to sleep aha my head feels fried, I will be around for any general catch up/conversation for a little bit but will answer any detailed questions tomorrow if possible)

Salsabil Faria

I find it tough to narrow down Sals motives, they are very conversational and talkative to everyone coming across very townie and friendly but could also be LAMIST, has expressed townie feelings of getting burned before and scared to let themselves be taken in like this again.
I liked 531 from Sal on their breakdown of Fredrick. General townie vibes from Sal overall.

flow trap

I have a null read on this slot, its hard to pinpoint if they are town or scum, they started off the game appearing very newbish as if they didnt know what they were doing, example 53
I agree with their logic/read of safebet in 244
273 277 285 one of several examples where they have avoided the question and just played it off as if it was nothing, very illusive and evasive.
368 you state you're finding Enchant town here, what changed for you to vote him and if I've missed the post where you have made this clear please inform me.
I do agree with Flow Traps 414 it did come across from Sal on the defensive that they are more worried about being scum read and a victim than pushing back, but overall they have been very townie so this doesn't on its own change my read on their slot.
I didn't agree with 433 stating that town should be defensive, which I countered in my 434 and 436

Enchant

I town read this slot, while they may come across illusive and emotive, 45 is a prime example why I am leaning town with this slot, I feel if they are scum they would be more involved and have more ideas, while as town I get the impression from their initial admission they struggle to have motivation and form reads coming from a town perspective.
I like 58 trying to apply early pressure to someone who appeared new and inexperienced, also to potentially see who else might join and why. Starting off that first wagon that brought so much discussion. 67 warning players not to put to L-1 early because of risk of early hammer.
150 questioning Floo questioning his worry about looking sus, enchant looking town here for me.
195 another example of sure NAI content from Enchant but informative to town which he didnt need to do, in my opinion comes across townie as the message is to the best of towns interests.
I will say I find it odd how in 471 Enchant asks EZ why he is not voting him as his top scum read but then since he has voted him and applied pressure he hasnt really been able to push back

floo

Floo's posts are few but tend to be emotive and full of thought, 124 pushing flow trap to get his read on safebet when he previously explained 2/3 of his reads is good to see very townie pushing for reads.
It's hard to find a lot about Floo but from what I have seen from reading everything through chronologically they seem to provide some straight forward towny input when they do contribute will keep an eye on this slot.

quiet/safebet222 slot

27 Looks like town trying to push conversation/get the game going.
86 the original L-1 vote, I can see why it may seem scummy to put someone to L-1 so early with a chance anyone could come along and hammer but I felt it was such a bold play that scum wouldn't make with it drawing so much attention to themselves.
129 after the discussion on the early L-1 dies down he shares his early suspicions he now has trying to push for more conversation and provoke discussion.

esotericzoomer

liked 66 81 83 questioning the rationale behind the early votes, but wasn't keen on 68 and the following posts which argued against the reason for early pressure to create discussion, showed very early worry on a wagon placed on someone who he shouldn't have had enough time to invest strong town views in, early thoughts of a partnership here worried me.
87 88 seem forced and fake or genuine worry for their teammate being put to L-1 so early, it was clear that the idea behind this action was to drive discussion and put pressure on players to discuss motives although EZ really does not like Safebet doing that here in this way.
I did like their reaction to my focused push on them, gave a competent push back and reasoning but I'm still sus of this slot.

Prism

I don't like their push of safebet in 293 here, looks good from the outside but in essence just re-visiting the same points that have already been addressed.
I disagree with 303 I think sticking hard to their story is something either town or scum would do
I liked 311 challenging me on the reasoning behind my statement felt townie to chase me up on that, trying to get more info.
328 tells me they are quite experienced and appears to be looking to help town solve the problem rather than covering a sheet over our eyes, but I am going to wait and see what they do to try and figure out which side they are on. I want to see more from them as I feel there is not enough self motivated individual thoughts for me to put a concrete read on them yet.
I like their 422 it felt like a very raw emotive reaction to Flow traps actions from a townie frustration perspective at someone who was hiding information preventing others from understanding their actions/reads etc.
I don't like 475 pressuring Safebet, they dont like safebets read post from 459 and states the thinking doesnt add up but doesnt expand any further on it only questioning the vote on flow trap.

Fredrick

comes in with 90 their random vote on safebet seeming potentially a little opportunistic to jump on early to a potential reverse wagon that didn't formulate.
166 strange reaction to being voted, lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie.
173 again refusal to providing meaningful content with a mindset of "I don't have to" very much keeping their cards close to their chest, making it hard to get a well rounded read on them.
185 states that he is expressing his opinion on something but provides a pretty nothing statement that contradicts itself.
211 212 jumps on the back of Sals reasoning without providing any fresh ideas of their own to vote Floo, seems like a very scummy vote to me. something I called out in 215 which I don't believe was ever properly answered by them.

I don't like Fredricks aloofness and lack of pushing for reads, he has appeared to me very opportunistic, as for someone who should be one of the far more experienced members of this group as an SE and isn't pushing conversation or contributing to uncovering scum, if anything it feels like he is scum hiding in plain sight.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

[flow trap]

368 you state you're finding Enchant town here, what changed for you to vote him and if I've missed the post where you have made this clear please inform me.

I planned to do something with it, but it got disrupted due to the ever-changing game state, this happens a lot, which is why I set a lot of things up; anyways it was a Noco bluff, I wanted to put them in a relaxed/overconfident state

[Prism]

Flow trap: towny vibes. I can think of some reasons why scum do the “I’m going to make 3 even wagons and see what happens” play, but I think it’s something town does with more frequency. This is pure gut, along with some other interactions I recall liking, but couldn’t quote if you asked. I’ll be looking to make a better read when I go back to the start on my laptop. Flow trap also pings me as experienced, which means I have to determine if I’m able to note AI stuff from them day1 at all.

I agree on this front. What stuck out to me was the comfort to continue behaving erratically/big brain even as he got progressively more and more flak for it. Assuming Enchant is scum, I just also don't think he ever puts that vote down to begin with, let alone bothers to random vote me after Enchant claimed.

Esoteric: I don’t even recall the slot. That’s not great on my end, I should probably remember at least something about every slot. Either I was just very distracted during my first casual read, or they’re lurky. Without going back, that leans scum to me, but that’s by far my worst impression.

I thought the reaction to safebet's vote was decently town but it was the read wall that really prompted me to foreclose any chance of voting the slot, I don't know if you've seen it. I might scope out an Esoteric scumgame to make sure he hasn't done it before but even at very advanced levels of play, that level of effort and commitment to sorting is +town. I can see scum gimmicking it but reading the wall just made that unlikely to me. You can noticeably see his thoughts progress as he goes. The math obviously doesn't work out cleanly, but the entire point was to force himself to sort and make decisions/commitments, and I think the shines through.

I also just don't ever see a reason to vote this slot w/ Enchant scum, 0 reason to bus here when Frederick is still under pressure and I'm scumreading your slot which was a top SR for him.

Spartan: I think my take on Spartan is probably colored by all the other takes I’ve seen about Spartan. Without looking back, null. Nothing pinged me so hard I took note of it, I remember being interested in some of their back and forths, I just don’t feel like I know enough to give a good impression rn.

I get that. I've just posted a lot about him, I don't really agree with his reads at all and am still pretty wary. His reasoning has gotten better. I think he makes a decent Enchant partner given the pushes elsewhere.

[Prism]

I'm trying to get away from meta-ing, but I'll probably check the game you linked out at some point if it comes to it.

What is the most productive way for me to engage as town? This game has, like, three players whose style I’m already interested in adopting bits and pieces of. The readability (as in legibility) of this game is great, in a way that my posts just...are not. I’m too rambly.

So I have a big wall of tips here.

Spoiler: Big wall

There's as many answers to this as there are players! I think wearing your heart on your sleeve and being a bit rambly is a powerful thing, at least as town. I'm generally considered an easy read because of it! If you can effectively emulate that as scum, you'll probably find it a tool for that alignment, too.

The important thing to keep in mind is that while it's important to "show your work", it's also important to keep it accessible. There's a few reasons for this. First, the more accessible and shorter your arguments are, the easier it is for others to understand, engage with, and be persuaded by them. Second, You don't want to shut your teammates out of the game by burying them in volume: If being an easy read on account of my intensity is my strong suit, overwhelming the other players with content is my weak point for sure! Even this game I think I've been less than ideal with not breaking things up into more accessible chunks.

Some people choose to bluff reads for reactions as town, I've never been a fan of this but plenty of players find it quite effective in getting reads. I simply wait until I have something, even if it's small, but the downside is I often rely on other players-like the bluffers!-to get me that clue. Personally, I put a lot of stock in progressions: Individually, each read needs to make sense

for the person to have

, even if I don't think it objectively makes sense. Strung together over the course of an entire game, they should present a natural evolution in how that person is thinking over time: weird, unexplained or questionable jumps are red flags to me. Others put a lot more valuable on their ability to "feel" someone's alignment in a post or when it comes from the heart, and have as much and often more success than I do.

I think an important thing people miss is that mafia is fundamentally a game of judging your fellow players: both their play and their ability. Whether something is possible as scum

depends on the player doing it

. This is really unpleasant to do sometimes, to say someone isn't capable of something as scum, but it's the nature of the game.

Lastly, get comfortable being wrong all the time. Learn to strike a balance with pushing your reads, and choosing to believe in them and vote them, but the hard truth is that even Paragon winners are wrong all the time like clockwork. Work with others with an open mind, always knowing there's a good chance you're wrong, but don't let that fear or that knowledge prevent you from making a call.

You don't have any other option but to guess.