TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

[Dannflor]

I would be voting the worst.

can you elaborate on where this read comes from?

or is it all in the mystical Titus VCA

[Winter Flakes]

It is super weird being referred to as Flake lmao I was not prepared for this

[JacksonVirgo]

Flake is already a name I used for someone on my home site so it's just natural progression. I'm going to sleep so probably won't get the full-catchup prior to P50 but only right after.

[Dunnstral]

ABR, DGB, A50, JacksonVirgo, and recently Titus

Are you saying these are who you want to elim or those that are the general lhf?

Lhf to me

[innocentvillager]

On that track, would love it if someone would maybe help me out here:

Can someone else read 763 and tell me if it feels bad? I cannot separate my thoughts from the fact that I feel I would in fact be a bad yeet because I'm town and I have given very little to work with post-flip up until these last two posts. I go back and forth on unwnd in general because the early push on IV felt contrived and very much trying to shut a town player down from doing something to get them townread, but later posting was fine and consistent. Binning them as null right now because I can't get a handle on the slot, even with a read, an ISO dive, and a re-read.

hmmm what don't you like about it? im biased because I townread unwnd but I don't see why this kind of post doesn't come from town

he's not explicitly suggesting the wagon should/can get quickhammered and I don't think people would do that so early in a more serious game like TM, he's just saying the wagon is good. if you think he's indirectly suggesting you "could" be flipped soon (or cementing that you should be the eventual flip today) and that would be fine then... maybe in isolation that's +scum agenda-y? i think i might see why you're apprehensive about it but to me it leans NAI for the most part.

[innocentvillager]

This is a pretty lame read

what don't you like about my Xtoxm read? i said it's a weaker townlean but i don't think any of the reasoning i gave was necessarily "lame"

[hercule]

howdy folks, time for my favorite activity in the entire world, which is drinking coffee and finding scum. prob gonna go through the entire playerlist and try to make a first edition tierlist, though I do also have to "work" as the kids would say

[AGar]

I am once again disagreeing vehemently with an unwnd post. (Source: 918)

and?

It's almost like I've said I'm trying to parse out a read on unwnd because I'm struggling there so I'm noting things.

gamestate/sanity check

for 42 pages, wagon movement has been awfully slow hasn't it?

Yep.

he's not explicitly suggesting the wagon should/can get quickhammered and I don't think people would do that so early in a more serious game like TM, he's just saying the wagon is good. if you think he's indirectly suggesting you "could" be flipped soon (or cementing that you should be the eventual flip today) and that would be fine then... maybe in isolation that's +scum agenda-y? i think i might see why you're apprehensive about it but to me it leans NAI for the most part.

I appreciate this.

[Cephrir]

Mmk. So what do you make of her ISO is actively just avoiding addressing literally anything that has occurred outside of me. I feel like you can muster up more than "unimpressed".

I mean, I could give you a PBPA of why I'm unimpressed, but you kinda already laid that out. I don't see her making much of a real attempt at solving so far. I'm keenly aware though that I really don't understand Titus particularly well. She's not someone I'm super worried about deepwolfing though.

[Cephrir]

JV 1016- I see how you can interpret hercule's first couple posts as manipulative to the end of "look at me i'm town" but i think it gets a little confbiased after that because i can't find that same thing everywhere you're seeing it
I am already kinda thinking Winter might be scum, although this post gets so far into the weeds it gets hard for me to follow.

i am semi-consciously trying to find JV as town i think because there seems to be a fair amount of consensus on him for not that much reason. i think i still am just landing on null. i don't think the scum response to their first catchup not working well is to do another one of the same content, but that could just be them freezing up a bit and not knowing how to engage with the game. watch this space?

[unwnd]

AGar, talk to me in real time. I'm not as disagreeable as you perceive and I don't want to just condemn your slot if the disconnect is based on misunderstanding

[hercule]

we're going in alphabetical order here so let's start with

Spoiler: Agar

-

Super ISO'd this slot overnight and: liked #548, felt genuine, backing away from Cephir because of their teammates felt genuine, #834 she likes the sass, #840 she thinks is really good and towny, likes the constant re-evaluation of reads (including on my own slot), thinks the effort on its own is NAI but the effort + tone combo is towny

my reads: decent intro, #529 not a bad response to wagon, now. to be honest, when looking at the ISO of AGar, I think Cephrir's post at #510 comes across more strongly than I think is reasonable to takeaway from their content at that point (3 posts)

I think AGar's response in #548 upon further analysis seems. Well I'm of two minds, on one hand I think their point-by-point defense sounds appropriate and logical but the OMGUS (and I don't even think OMGUS is necessarily bad) on Cephrir isn't striking the right note for me. Accusing Cephrir of "waiting for them to post to set this up" doesn't make sense, since they commented directly on the post itself. I know they've walked this read back by now, but basically there team just told them to back off so it's plausible their team was just like mmm yeah that's a no go don't commit to that

it's a bit difficult to parse through the notes considering I have to go find each post individually but fuck it we gotta do what we gotta do

- I agree with read on Oka
- I disagree with the comments regarding 256 being scummy, "busywork and fake solving. These are things either meant to stay in your head or your PT." is objectively true in my opinion
- comments about my 268 and 283 kind of ping me because it seems like you are going out of your way to shade me there. I had a theory about Ythan/DGB at the time that I hadn't expressed in the thread that hopkirk's teammate got opposite vibes from so I asked about it. How is that "Really trying hard to justify Ythan SR" which to that point in the thread I hadn't even mentioned yet. My initial vote was a single ping and pressure and then if you truly considered the content of my later post you would have realized it was a read I developed later - this could be a bit nitpicky though I don't think it's easy context to miss
- tripling down on sr on unwnd and I am not seeing it re: 291 mmm but you backpedaled to null so idk
- agree that DGB approached hopkirk weird and that they are objectively scummy but I'm led to believe that could just be how they play
- I like the read regarding the worst on 537 and 539, i think with 8 votes on you scum would be less critical of incoming townreads, seems more like town mindset
- regarding 578 are you referring to the most pressing thing being the wagon on you? I saw it but it was day 2 of 14 I feel I can safely assume town and even scum on the wagon is just doing it for reactions rather than push anyone over so I saw no need to get involved. I do buy this thought process from u as genuine thought
- I think it's decent logic regarding 579 and 584 from agar's pov
- agree on 586, and also would point out 600 with ABR agreeing with it, when looking at your ISO objectively I don't see anything that gives a "trying to get them to turn on each other" vibe
- agree regarding 649 i actually am gagged to see this post, considering their "case" on me was that I am LAMIST, (a term that I hate regardless, pretty sure every player on EM is LAMIST de facto, we love that shit), and yet they acknowledge it from themselves
- don't really have any comments regarding 710 except for "you do know what snap reads, are, yeah?"
- also, yes, i'm a tryhard, seems like you're trying to sell that as scum indicative? if you think it's town indicative u sure didn't mention it. if it's NAI not sure why you brought it up

Overall I find most of their notes to be reasonable, I think most of their takes I disagreed with resolved around my own slot, so that's probably a good sign in their favor considering I have TMI on that slot

I guess since they are making cases on Titus and DGB I will just ISO those two low-posting slots at this time. Then I will return to this.

i'm back after reading Titus (ISO is below)

-----

so, I think Agar actually brings the context of the thread a bit better into this read, for example, ignoring 150 and 262, although it's not like 262 has anything to respond to

yes, Titus is pretty singularly focused and their contributions are surface level at best, their interactions btwn u and ABR are a bit odd, that being said it's still early and there are possible alternative narratives for their gameplay to this point than being scum

586 is weird ya. i don't know where that read came from at all. I agree Titus can go in the POE. Or the scumpool. Or whatever the fuck you guys call it LMAO. Decent read from Agar here, especially considering their POV on their own wagon I think it makes perfect sense

-----

k now I will read DGB

k back

ok this "DGB notes" section was underwhelming I didn't need to ISO her to read this LMFAOOO I just didn't want to open it before I ISO'd so I could approach it neutrally

I didn't get any bad vibe from 667, I feel like anyone could not notice ABR's reads considering I don't think he's even outed any of substance, seems nitpicky to call it a red flag

Also I did notice that for one of your scumleans whose worst posts regard their take on my slot (like the oka/hercule teamread), u sure were quiet about that, and it begs the questions as to whether it's because it fits ur narrative

-----

continuing ISO. I think it's a decent point about Xtoxm in 521 saying the post and vote was objectively good but not pushing any further. I think it's okay to continue to be skeptical of a low-posting slot

"Can someone else read 763 and tell me if it feels bad?" i'm gonna make a note of this for when I get to unwnd, my gut is pinged a bit by the "(see: highly unlikely)" and I don't even know what the "commitment represented by the votes" means

k anywayyyy

861 is decent, I like the sass, I agree it's a bit of a nothingburger. but I will say that 871 also seems to be a nothingburger in very much the same vein that you are pushing on

1019 - why does it stink?

1019 - what part of JV's read do you "fuck with"

wew boy ok this has been an exhausting hour. I'm going to recap Agar now.

I am

townleaning

Agar. I don't think their thought process has been very difficult to follow and their reads have been easily and thoroughly checked in the thread, they're not just spewing bullshit, they make sense from their pov, especially w.r.t how I think a town should approach a wagon on them. There are some minor inconsistencies and pings I have had, but, they are outweighed by their other content. I don't particularly think they are a good wagon, and I certainly do not think they are a "fantastic" wagon

Spoiler: Titus

-

we can actually go through every single post considering there's 13. this ISO began in the middle of Agar's ISO so yeah idk you have to start there to follow my whole chain of thought

81, meh
115, some meta joke i don't get
260, logistical question, fine in a vacuum, maybe slightly dramatic but NAI to me
262, fine
265, logistical comment
267, meh
567, 569, odd that they come back just to discuss this specifically, could just happen to be first posts they saw
586, comes out of nowhere imo
589, fine
590, i don't like that their second townread of the game (600 posts in) is based on one line, because someone said the same thing as them.
605, i mean, fair enough question to ask
790, ok
1048, this post signals to me that they haven't had a lot of time so far and we can expect more content

overall I am not impressed at all by their content but I don't think anything jumps out at me as SCUM. it's more just like, yeah, meh, they're in the POE. If they continue posting like this for the whole week then they would fall farther

ok gonna go back into the Agar ISO now, this is like, connected circuits bear with me, gotta just follow my brain.

Spoiler: DGB

I genuinely hate DGB's iso right off the bat lmao. I feel like I keep making excuses for them meta-wise but sheesh. No one can tell me that they came to the conclusion OkaPoka and I were partners organically.

344 is interesting in context, if that's not something Titus even does then 260 comes across more performatively.

i hate 346 and 347, actually I remember hating 347 and I don't know if I ever mentioned it. Doesn't "caught for the wrong reasons" imply your reasons are wrong

349 they can't be serious, I can't read them as a serious person.

351 see this is why I can't fucking read them LOL. like that's deadpan humor. I can't tell if their entire playstyle is a shtick or not

365 don't love this post even as a joke

391, 392 i'm sorry, at a certain point, you just have to take someone at face value, and this is nonsense

520 my head is going to combust. i'm genuinely laughing rn cuz I feel like this entire time i'm just being trolled

779, 783 feels like they are actually starting to play

785 agree that it's a question worth asking, as I commented in my Titus ISO

mmmm overall like. I agree with spf that they are tough to read. I hate several of their posts. I feel like I have no choice but to take them at face value and scumlean them. petapan suggested they were a serious player, so, if this isn't one big troll, they're scum. or really bad town. you never can quite be sure. this is the kind of slot I will never vibe with.

ok that took fucking forever. also it didn't end up being alphabetical lol but such is life

here's my TL;DR

Agar - townlean, don't think they're a good wagon today

Titus - null-leaning-scum, but don't think pressure would serve us much yet. They indicated they would be around in a more engaging manner Tomorrow. They should be allowed to engage the game properly then and we can go from there

DGB - scumlean, I have no doubt they will be near the bottom of my tierlist by the time I'm done. Not lockscum, could just be a tough playstyle for me to vibe with and I'm still not entirely convinced they aren't trolling

[hercule]

JV 1016- I see how you can interpret hercule's first couple posts as manipulative to the end of "look at me i'm town" but i think it gets a little confbiased after that because i can't find that same thing everywhere you're seeing it
I am already kinda thinking Winter might be scum, although this post gets so far into the weeds it gets hard for me to follow.

i am semi-consciously trying to find JV as town i think because there seems to be a fair amount of consensus on him for not that much reason. i think i still am just landing on null. i don't think the scum response to their first catchup not working well is to do another one of the same content, but that could just be them freezing up a bit and not knowing how to engage with the game. watch this space?

I don't really vibe with the point about "look at me i'm town" for 2 reasons:

#1 "look at me i'm town" is like the entire basis of my playstyle and my homesite's meta, I will do anything necessary to acquire townreads and continually drive the point home

#2 they admitted to doing it themselves in 649

[Cephrir]

And even if you're basing this entirely off PYP I don't think my play this game has been *that* far off how I played there. Sure, in that game I was a bit more analytical but that's also a given as I hadn't played Mafia for almost a year. As I'm quite a few games in now since coming back, the style is bound to change and I have been experimenting with being more aggressive/blunt.

this is the type of excuse scum posts, i think
at least, i see me-scum doing stuff like this

I'm on the fence about how much to say but my team are like assertively undecided on AGar but I don't think I really have an opportunity to advance my read on him atp

i prefer this to forgetting about it. i don't wanna be like, party's moving to the next house let's forget this ever happened, but that seems to be where the thread is headed.

I still think that everybody jumping on them was preemptive/based on what is nai for him

And we haven't moved on from that

They had a good post, the vote thing is nitpicking, saying his team could make that post is true but there's no evidence for it, and the original argument wasn't convincing to me

can you help me see 506 as nai, i still think it's a scumpost. feel free to rebut 510 since i didn't find his rebuttal very convincing
i did think the wagon had fallen apart a bit more than it actually has.

I'd contest that isn't a read but I kinda agree a lot of the more vocal disagreements don't feel particularly manipulative (agar/Titus feels like it has the strongest chance of red atm)

how about like actual player reads? townreads can be hot too

idk if i have any hottake reads because i suspect most the playerlist might have at most 5 ish reads that aren't outside the bounds of null and there is nowhere near enough consensus

maybe something random like ceph could be scum

so I'm back & forth on ceph but someone in my team super heavily townreads him. he's also posting a tonne better than he did in a marathon game I was in with him when he was scum - but I also have a fair bit of respect for his like gamestate comprehension & ability to post confidently so I'm biting my tongue a bit there.

who are the 5 outside null reads as you see them? who should we be reconsidering or bumping up/down outside of there?

hi can you expand on your back & forth on Ceph and/or your team mate's uber town read on him?

My personal feeling that's been shared by Jingle is that Ceph has posted enough content where I feel like I should have a decent handle on his alignment by now but I 'm really just coming up with a big cloud of nothing and I can't figure out if that's just a fault with my reading skills or it says something about Ceph's alignment

you did see that i put a smile on the warthog right? that's the towntell of the century

I'll be reading up tomorrow but I have a solid TR on ABR based on his wagon placement here. If I wasn't voting Agar, I would be voting the worst.

can you explain what you mean by abr's wagon placement - just that he is not on a relevant wagon? does that diverge from your expectations of his scum game? why would you be voting the worst?
i'm kind of worried you might be scum. this is me trying to engage with you even though engagement is not usually my thing, sorry in advance if it becomes too much pressure

[Cephrir]

i did really like agar backing off me ill admit. i was thinking of asking his teammates to look at the interaction if he was town because i was so sure they'd tell him he was overreacting and then it happened without my prompting

[hercule]

you know, it's probably not a bad idea to take LAMIST as a scumtell for site meta health because we keep getting deepwolfed and our games are exhausting, we could just make everyone cut it out LOL

[hercule]

i did really like agar backing off me ill admit. i was thinking of asking his teammates to look at the interaction if he was town because i was so sure they'd tell him he was overreacting and then it happened without my prompting

to play devil's advocate, do you think that scum!agar's teammates would also tell him to back off?

[Cephrir]

the one thing that keeps pinging me about hercule is him posting LMAO after comments that aren't funny
i know this is stupid, shut up

[hercule]

the one thing that keeps pinging me about hercule is him posting LMAO after comments that aren't funny
i know this is stupid, shut up

all of my comments are funny (to myself)

[hercule]

you know, it's probably not a bad idea to take LAMIST as a scumtell for site meta health because we keep getting deepwolfed and our games are exhausting, we could just make everyone cut it out LOL

this is legitimately a funny thought to me

[Cephrir]

you know, it's probably not a bad idea to take LAMIST as a scumtell for site meta health because we keep getting deepwolfed and our games are exhausting, we could just make everyone cut it out LOL

you guys are going to make me look up what lamist means again aren't you
i have to every time it comes up and somehow i never remember

i did really like agar backing off me ill admit. i was thinking of asking his teammates to look at the interaction if he was town because i was so sure they'd tell him he was overreacting and then it happened without my prompting

to play devil's advocate, do you think that scum!agar's teammates would also tell him to back off?

yes, absolutely, which is why i'm hesitant to write the whole thing off

[hercule]

you know, it's probably not a bad idea to take LAMIST as a scumtell for site meta health because we keep getting deepwolfed and our games are exhausting, we could just make everyone cut it out LOL

you guys are going to make me look up what lamist means again aren't you
i have to every time it comes up and somehow i never remember

i did really like agar backing off me ill admit. i was thinking of asking his teammates to look at the interaction if he was town because i was so sure they'd tell him he was overreacting and then it happened without my prompting

to play devil's advocate, do you think that scum!agar's teammates would also tell him to back off?

yes, absolutely, which is why i'm hesitant to write the whole thing off

it's Look At Me I'm So Towny, which I'm pretty sure is either a mafiascum or mafiauniverse term, definitely not one I've ever used outside of here LOL (now u have me self-conscious about my LOLs)

[Cephrir]

oh ye.
it seems to go in and out of fashion here which is why i still can't remember it despite my join date

[hercule]

oh ye.
it seems to go in and out of fashion here which is why i still can't remember it despite my join date

if you'll allow me to pontificate (this is what happens to coffee!hercule), I genuinely wonder if it goes in and out of fashion as a response to site meta at the time. Like, for example, on EpicMafia we have never considered it to be a scumtell. That's just how everyone plays. But we really should start treating it less town-indicative because we have seen back-to-back-to-back deepwolves who utilized it to their advantage. But when it's not prevalent (aka scum doesn't need or have to do it or else they're scumread), then I presume it would go back to being a towntell. And I wonder if it just doesn't cycle like that with the current meta

[Titus]

I would be voting the worst.

can you elaborate on where this read comes from?

or is it all in the mystical Titus VCA

Wagonomics. VCA requires flips.

If Agar is scum, the worst vote is sheepy onto a counterwagon.
If Agar is town, the worst perpetuates a t v t.

So it's a decent vote if uncertain over Agar's alignment.

Catching up now.