Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[quiet]

Hey Salsa! How did you read Fred’s recent set of posts?

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it, or very town.

I also do not believe a Fred/Enchant partnership is anywhere close to as likely as EZ does.

Hey EZ, did Fred’s recent posts effect your partnership take at all? Or do you still think they could come from a scumbuddy of Enchant?

[Prism]

Currently catching up but I want to echo the above from quiet.

It's worth fighting when you think there's something AI to be found there. I don't think arguing attitude is giving us much of anything anymore.

Salsabil, I appreciate you being willing to recognize that it's unproductive and to take the step back.

For flow trap, while I think my perspective is clear, the last I will say even if you're right about all of your ideas/conceptions/motivations, something is preventing you from communicating and working effectively with several of the other players. If nothing else, figuring out how to work together effectively should be a priority. Being right means nothing if you can't carry it through, and you'd be surprised how often greasing the wheels of communication actually does net good townreads. You want the other town players to work with you rather than around you.

[quiet]

Killing me when?

Hey! Thanks for the reads. I think there’s value there, I don’t think they were useless.

To your point on me voting you/talking to you about unvoting yourself/asking you not to self hammer, I had a couple motivations. Mind you, this was very spur of the moment.

I don’t think townYou self hammers there when I ask you really nicely not to. If scumYou self hammers, town loses a bit of time to chat, but we gain a ton of info, and I didn’t assess that as super likely. (Note-I mean after I ask you not to self hammer, you were perfectly willing to self vote or self hammer generally)

I was really hoping (and probably overplayed my hand a bit) that someone else would quickhammer or generally hop on board very loudly. That would have been a very interesting data point to try to sort potential partners as scum looking to distance, or if you flip town, opportunistic scum with a perfect reason to miselim.

I wanted to keep the pressure on you up because god dammit as much as I don’t think I get away from your elimination today, I have this stupid itch that tells me this is confusing asf town, and I wanted to see your reaction to the continued pressure. Sadly, I can’t read your jester antics really and feel like I have to just shake my head and keep voting you but...damn man I’m gonna be real sad if you’re VT.

Hope that helps you understand some of why I did what I did! Also, I just really don’t like it when people drag/insult their own play. I think you’ve been fine this game! But it’s hard to sort you when you sorta...dont play towards your traditional win condition (like getting yourself elimmed day1 as town has a 0/9 chance of getting a scum, voting randomly would be 2/8 so 25% as you know you are town, 25%>0%, so just do the 25% thing). Not only does not doing that feel strange/scummy, you let other scummy players escape notice because what you did was just so different!

I guess I’m asking you to tell me how you would sort your own play. Like how can I actually figure out if you are scum or town based on what you’ve done?


TLDR stop tryin to get killed pls thx

[Prism]

also, I’ll note that flows response to Prisim’s post was more...flow being flow. Little one liners, quick statements. The form culture shock and arrogance as a defense mechanism were both nice touches. I read flow has enjoying themselves, and the response NAI like every other thing they’ve done. Sound like a broken record, I’ll probably not post about that slot any further today.

I thought this was town. I would've hoped he'd taken a moment to really reevaluate, but the fact he just kept on being himself told me the attitude was probably legitimate. Keeping it up in the wake of negative feedback as scum would be a very nuanced approach I wouldn't expect at this level.

[Salsabil Faria]

Killing me when?

Later,

Fredrick A Campbell

and I have some conversation to do.

[quiet]

Later, Fredrick A Campbell and I have some conversation to do.

Maybe lay out like, 3 really really concrete things you want Freddy to respond to. I get the sense that they are a rather literal, concrete person, and they have previously been disinterested in responding to “opinion” based rhetoric or suspicions.

For my own curiosity, what do you feel like you need from Fred?

[flow trap]

something is preventing you from communicating and working effectively with several of the other players

Probably social anxiety

[Salsabil Faria]

Hey Salsa! How did you read Fred’s recent set of posts?

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it, or very town.

He is going passive (it's the right word I believe, if not then correct me please), so my reads are the same for now. I'm waiting to have a one to one conversation with him, hope I can find something more about me then.

[Prism]

Their self-vote openclaim Mafia Goon makes them so suspicious that literally anyone can vote them without looking bad.

This also makes me feel even better about elimming them, as I would think if they were not mafia, this wagon would be over and done with and we'd be in the night faze already. Like in a townEnchant world, mafia has a totally free elim just waiting for a vote.

I don't really like this post in light of the post you're quoting with 823? 823 suggests scum/town alike will both wagon without issue, and so there's no info from an Enchant townflip, while this post is suggesting that scum will instantly jump on if it's a townflip. I both personally disagree with this and think it's inconsistent-mafia needing to vote it is info, even if they don't I think it's info based off of why they justify not doing so. If it's a free elim mafia don't have to vote it, and are actually incentivized to avoid it. Whiteknighting town slots is one of my most common scum tactics and I catch others doing it all the time.

In general I like the effort/teamwork emphasis you've put on the game but I'm worried that scumQuiet is taking the approach of "Spit out every reaction now, worry about implications later." Assuming your partner is Enchant you may not have any other choice.

[Prism]

you're being too paranoid

This sounds scummy tbh

Do you scumread Esoteric overall?

[Salsabil Faria]

Later, Fredrick A Campbell and I have some conversation to do.

Maybe lay out like, 3 really really concrete things you want Freddy to respond to. I get the sense that they are a rather literal, concrete person, and they have previously been disinterested in responding to “opinion” based rhetoric or suspicions.

For my own curiosity, what do you feel like you need from Fred?

He has question for me:

Salsabil Faria, I trust you to encounter my post where I ask you a question soon. I may or may not be online and may or may not be able to have a real-time talk with you.

Looks like you won't be getting there before I can start to talk to you. Good night.

[flow trap]

you're being too paranoid

This sounds scummy tbh

Do you scumread Esoteric overall?

Null town

[Enchant]

1. I'm suspicious and claimed. Mafia will not target me, so primary use of VT as meatshield is destroyed.
2. I'm suspicious and mafia can after just gain legal excuse to execute me, when my death will really matter. Only thing could save this is Cop check, and Cop have more important thing to do or doesh't exist in game. And no, it's actually not my guilt, because i only started playing suspicious on intent, when i was allready main target of elumination.

I have expireince and this happens with me very often and it's common for me get away for first days, but get targeted by mafia accusations after and costing town game. It's not what way i want go.

3. No, 2/8 is not real.
You have almost same chance (or 1/8 in some cases) to reveal Town PR. And of course mafia would just reveal self as PR to trade self with them, i even don't say about how hard to pinpoint mafia at first day. I would suggest No Elumination, but i kinda did that in last game and survived only because i was PR as well, so it's not like i want break meta right now.

While you eluminate me, you not eluminating less suspicious townie (no, i hardly believe in chance to pinpoint mafia) or not revealing PR, which could save game. So i find myself not harmful target.

4. I'm not insulting my gamestyle, it's just really different and i acknowledge that and calling it bad, and i somehow can't act in other way. I just wanna tell, i'm not gamethrower. Please don't call me that.


You will figure it out, when i flip. That's all.

[quiet]

I don't really like this post in light of the post you're quoting with 823? 823 suggests scum/town alike will both wagon without issue, and so there's no info from an Enchant townflip, while this post is suggesting that scum will instantly jump on if it's a townflip. I both personally disagree with this and think it's inconsistent-mafia needing to vote it is info, even if they don't I think it's info based off of why they justify not doing so. If it's a free elim mafia don't have to vote it, and are actually incentivized to avoid it. Whiteknighting town slots is one of my most common scum tactics and I catch others doing it all the time.

Yeah this is a really good point. I don’t think I’ve been very consistent or clear on this.

There is considerably less info from a Enchant townFlip as there would be in a case where a wagon got formed on a less polarizing player. I think no info as an exaggeration, but I still feel it’s a concern; not to mention that I keep flip flopping on just how likely a townFlip is.

As to the scum would jump on idea, as I mentioned in my most recent post, that’s half something I believe scum could get away with (as a more extreme example, a slot that fake claims and is caught as town...I don’t think the votes on that person are AI at all), and half me hoping to induce a bet (get scum to vote it cause I keep pushing how safe it is).

As I don’t think votes on the slot give that much info, I was/am flailing a bit to try to get some. This might be a bad take haha but it’s the best I got.

We do seem to agree that it’s a free elim though, which is bad for town if town for more reasons than it just being a miselim?

[flow trap]

Why would you self hammer instead of letting us have the info of someone else hammering instead

[Prism]

Spartan's 838 is interesting. I think a lot of it is way too generous. I also think Spartan knows that harddefending a partner slot isn't actually as bad as people think. There's some consistency in reads/progression here but I'm skeptical of the casting of a lot of this. Most of it is describing what the town motivation

would be

without a clear reason for why it's town. I think two examples would be:

577 he defends himself making a point about his serious and not serious behaviour and it all being read the same

and

661 The post before the self vote he shares his opinion on Prism and welcomes quiet, not very like someone who wishes to leave the game.

661 is Enchant openly shading me. He might be paranoid town, and I addressed it as such, but there's very clear scum motive here.

The parts he admits to being scummy are kind of just...dropped without much further thought.

I dont like Quiets 697 In the same post he says

"But you weren’t super at risk from my perspective; I thought some of this was pressure"

and then follows it up with

"So uh, basically, I’m probably going to hammer you later today when I catch up"

He goes from in his eyes Enchant not being at risk and seeing some of the votes as pressure to then telling him he is probably going to hammer him, it feels a bit opportunistic in my eyes.

So I'm not the biggest Quiet fan either (alignment wise!) but I think this missed Quiet's point: Quiet was saying at the time of the E-1 vote he wasn't under much risk. Now that he selfvoted and claimed mafia, Quiet was going to hammer him. Two very different points in time.

Saying there's scum on the wagon begs the question of who the scum on the wagon are. It looks like you're skeptical of Quiet and have spent a good chunk of time pushing Esoteric. Right now it looks like you're pushing Frederick, who isn't on the wagon.

[Prism]

Let me know if there's any other reads you want to talk about when you finish reading.

What are your thoughts on Sal? I feel like I need to re-evaluate the slot/give it some more thought, I'm also planning a re read of Safebet/quiets slot.

Being honest, they're dartthrow town but my attention has been elsewhere. Revisiting the slot is probably a tomorrow project.

[esotericzoomer]

Hey Salsa! How did you read Fred’s recent set of posts?

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it, or very town.

I also do not believe a Fred/Enchant partnership is anywhere close to as likely as EZ does.

Hey EZ, did Fred’s recent posts effect your partnership take at all? Or do you still think they could come from a scumbuddy of Enchant?

I find enchant’s read on fredrick very convenient, he provides reasoning for everyone of his reads yet when it comes to fredrick his “reasoning” was a lot of filler

[quiet]

4. I'm not insulting my gamestyle, it's just really different and i acknowledge that and calling it bad, and i somehow can't act in other way. I just wanna tell, i'm not gamethrower. Please don't call me that.

Okay, even if I don’t understand it, I’ll respect it. Don’t mean to accuse you of gamethrowing, it’s hard for me to wrap my brain around mechanically, but I guess I’ll hope to figure it out after the flip.

Hey, I played with a player in my first game who fake claims so often and never posts more than two or three lines in every single game to the point where people just reference the BBMola meta and refuse to sort them as scummy day1 if they do such antics. You don’t necessarily have to change your play, though you can always try if you’re unhappy with it; eventually, this will just become the Enchant meta.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

Just hit the reads list from Enchant.

[esotericzoomer]

scratch that- his entire readslist is convenient.

[Prism]

I find their lack of...content or reads or good faith engagement with arguments (as in, the “I can’t respond to you unless there is something specific to respond to” or “I ignored your post about your suspicions on me because that was just your opinion and you can’t argue opinion”) as a fairly polarizing take; they are either very scummy for it,

or very town.

? Can you explain the bolded half for me

[Prism]

scratch that- his entire readslist is convenient.

Unfortunately I have seen far, far too many people try to selfhammer as town and claim to be worthless/to just kill them over the years. Probably half are town. The hit rate is still very good for a 9p game but it's worth doublechecking.

Him claiming mafia as a joke, thinking he was hammered, would definitely be a new one but the level of effort afterwards is worth looking at.

For Enchant, if you're town the correct answer just isn't to selfhammer at all...but if you're not hammered and claimed mafia to troll, well, you kind of dug this hole yourself.

[quiet]

I find enchant’s read on fredrick very convenient, he provides reasoning for everyone of his reads yet when it comes to fredrick his “reasoning” was a lot of filler

I mean their read on me is very similar/predicted Prisms read on me today. I don’t think it’s all filler.

[esotericzoomer]

I find enchant’s read on fredrick very convenient, he provides reasoning for everyone of his reads yet when it comes to fredrick his “reasoning” was a lot of filler

I mean their read on me is very similar/predicted Prisms read on me today. I don’t think it’s all filler.

the fred read is filler
"Fredrick A Campbell (SE) - Town?

He hardly read game at all. I made some strange tests and can say he is probably town. Probably."
this is nothing compared to even his nullreads