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Post Post #5525 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:16 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5521, mastina wrote:This game was designed to be solved by dayplay in scumhunting for the town and the scum manipulating the town, not by nightplay (via the town solving with its power roles, and scum preventing this with their own). I stand by it being balanced--maybe slightly frustrating for the scum to deal with the heavy kill-denial, but balanced, and explicitly a game where if scum's nightkills didn't fail multiple times, scum could not be caught randomly via a surprise PR outing them as confscum and it'd be difficult to POE the game down. (Unless they fakeclaimed and DGB checked them, obv.)
cool let's just not have PRs then

you deliberately jerked town around and gave scum nothing to interfere with them with, just their own interference and not realizing that's what it was

like this is obviously nonsense, if you really want what you say you want just give scum an NK only on odd nights or some crap
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Post Post #5526 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:18 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5522, mastina wrote:The town had five power roles, but aside from the fairly-well-protected friendly neighbor, the town had no conftowns. Any of the town's roles could've been scum roles, and DGB's elimination was proof enough of that.
who gives a fuck? it's entirely in town's hands and that's the whole point

it should be worth noting that everyone on both sides hated this

maybe head back with that info
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Post Post #5527 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:23 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

like what was dgb here other than to jerk everyone the fuck around

look at prism's comments in the dead pt who puts it more eloquenrtly than i am
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Post Post #5528 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:26 pm

Post by mastina »

Also, general stance on power roles:
The inherent nature of the forum game of mafia in this format means the base game, at mountainous, is scumsided.
Town power roles are designed to bridge the gap, to give the town a compensation for the immensely strong tool of the scum nightkill and allowing them to generate extra information and protect key players from the scum nightkill.

Scum power roles are, explicitly, meant to compensate for the town's power roles going too far: giving the town too much information without the scum's PRs offering them a denial, and to prevent a D1 breaking strategy with no scum deaths to be formed (e.g. scum roleblocker to break up a town cop and town doctor).

In a game where the town's power roles are designed to not give the town too much information, the scum inherently do not need power roles, because the base game in its mountainous state is scumsided and town power roles that don't give the town too much information lead to a more neutral gamestate where the town has more information than they would in a mountainous game (and in this game in particular, multiple methods of preventing the scum from eliminating the biggest town players) but are still forced to scumhunt off of dayplay in order to win.

Normal Games that're designed as puzzles are poor design, because they lead to excessive removal of the importance of dayplay and emphasize nightplay. Setup speculation should give the town competent at it a slight advantage--it should not break the game wide open to the point where the town off of setup speculation can singlehandedly win the game.
Also, investigatives add severe swing to the game if they offer a tangible benefit. The difference between a 1-shot cop and a vanilla cop is huge; the former will always be strong but how strong depends on its use, and it introduces swing as a result, whereas the latter is situational in its usefulness, and usually is fairly low on swing as a result.

This game could probably have lost the odd-night vanilla cop, but ironically I feel like that'd have made the game MORE townsided, by virtue of "town needs all of these PRs to be real, or else the game's scumsided". (3-4 power roles is the standard, so having exactly 4 would mean it'd be unlikely any would be doubted.)
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Post Post #5529 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:26 pm

Post by Prism »

I saw 5521 coming from a mile away. The only reason I even considered two goons was that I saw you were the primary reviewer, and instead I chose to place my hope that Isis would object.

5524 is on the dot. It doesn't matter that the setup was balanced: It did so by being swingy as hell, by balancing around deliberately misleading town in multiple ways and punishing them for correctly utilizing their night actions, and giving scum no active mechanical counterplay. Red herrings are inherently bad design but one is acceptable. The entire setup being comprised of them is not.

I don't want to discuss this further.
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Post Post #5530 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:27 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5523, mastina wrote:-the scum's only night power is somewhat limited due to the town PRs
what are you even fucking talking about in this post? what power? lol
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Post Post #5531 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:29 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5529, Prism wrote:I don't want to discuss this further.
i want to discuss that you're awesome, that's all
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Post Post #5532 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:30 pm

Post by fferyllt »

In post 5531, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 5529, Prism wrote:I don't want to discuss this further.
i want to discuss that you're awesome, that's all
So much this! <3
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Post Post #5533 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:50 pm

Post by Prism »

You each were the #2 and #3 highlights of this game for me, without being made to choose which is which, so thanks.

#1 will always be me and petapan engaging in another instant classic
In post 2110, Prism wrote:It is, however, worth noting that my/petapan's history of dancing is very different from yours and Cabd.

90% of the time one steps on a foot, the other says to watch where you're stepping you clumsy motherfucker, the first replies "Who you callin' clumsy?" and before you know we're whacking each other with our heels and both of our dresses are torn and we never liked the other anyway and we both flip town
Someone had to call Regfan to pick us up, us forming mirror images as we grimaced out the windows of the backseat all the way home. We're both equally stupid, and there's no one I'd rather slapfight with for the rest of my life, in sickness and in health.
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Post Post #5534 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:00 pm

Post by fferyllt »

I loved that so much!

it was why I felt like we had to kill one of you on N1 because holy shit if your dance ended with townreads.
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Post Post #5535 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:10 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 5524, fferyllt wrote:This game gave scum no control at all over the night game.
The presence of town power roles makes this inevitable--there will never be a setup where town have power roles where scum have unlimited control during the night, unless the scum have perfect counters to every scum role--which is inherently bad design and hugely scumsided.
In post 5525, borkjerfkin wrote:you deliberately jerked town around and gave scum nothing to interfere with them with, just their own interference and not realizing that's what it was
To the contrary: that's exactly what we realized it was.
In post 5525, borkjerfkin wrote:like this is obviously nonsense, if you really want what you say you want just give scum an NK only on odd nights or some crap
Not gonna lie: pretty sure that a mountainous game where scum could only nightkill every other night? Which you're saying is comparable to this game? Probably close to the balanced range. So I don't see a problem with that.
In post 5526, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 5522, mastina wrote:The town had five power roles, but aside from the fairly-well-protected friendly neighbor, the town had no conftowns. Any of the town's roles could've been scum roles, and DGB's elimination was proof enough of that.
who gives a fuck? it's entirely in town's hands and that's the whole point
Because it's an important centerstone of balance: if the town's power roles when claiming become unlynchable, it's bad design. Scum's agency shouldn't be exclusively in the night--they should have agency during the day to push players and have the ability to eliminate them. The ability to eliminate town PRs during the day during the night is something which
should
be possible for the scum to do in any given mafia game; this game gave a particularly strong ability for scum to do exactly that.
In post 5529, Prism wrote:I saw 5521 coming from a mile away. The only reason I even considered two goons was that I saw you were the primary reviewer, and instead I chose to place my hope that Isis would object.
Isis was the one who did the heavylifting in the review, not me--this was Isis's balance-zone, with Isis expecting that I'd want more town power.
In post 5529, Prism wrote: It did so by being swingy as hell, by balancing around deliberately misleading town in multiple ways and punishing them for correctly utilizing their night actions, and giving scum no active mechanical counterplay. Red herrings are inherently bad design but one is acceptable. The entire setup being comprised of them is not.
The setup has no true red herring. A red herring would be something like a ninja with no action-investigation, or a nurse with no doctor. All the roles here functioned exactly as advertised, indicating their purpose: vanilla cop is a role designed to check for fakeclaims OR to check for scum PRs claiming VT. In this setup, it could not do the latter, but it explicitly was designed to do the former. The doctor can stop a kill; the jailkeeper can stop a kill; the roleblocker can stop a kill. None of them were saying they'd do something they wouldn't be able to do.

The town's power roles have extreme anti-synergy from blocking each other to not being able to discern for sure how a successfully-foiled kill was foiled, but that ambiguity gives scum counterplay, yes, mostly in the day but it's still possible to use mechanical counterplay in the night. The town isn't punished for using their roles correctly here, it just takes them two successes to be rewarded.
In post 5530, borkjerfkin wrote:
In post 5523, mastina wrote:-the scum's only night power is somewhat limited due to the town PRs
what are you even fucking talking about in this post? what power? lol
The scum have three universal factional powers:
They are informed, having information the town does not.
They are the minority, being statistically less likely to be eliminated.
And they have a nightkill, to remove the largest threats to the scumteam.

There's no such thing as a non-mountainous game where the largest threats to the scumteam do not include power roles. (Heck even in a role madness game, some roles are larger threats than others.) Inherent to the game of mafia is the need to remove power roles, and the requirement that this removal being at least partially from nightkills.

The three kill-denial power roles limit the scum's ability to kill the power-town players and the friendly neighbor is conftown that ideally needs to die before lylo (but is not technically mandatory because even in a worst case scenario of it living into lylo it just produces a 50/50 at worst), but while killing the town power roles makes this game much easier for the scum, it is not strictly speaking necessary, especially if the town eliminates them instead of the scum.

If the scum were to have any role here, it'd have been Informed, something along the lines of, "there are multiple kill-stopping roles in this game". Something that'd keep them as effectively goons, but increase their information. So in hindsight, that's a possible way to let the scum have some compensation for their weakened nightkill (tho an Informed for scum would if claiming VT be a guilty to DGB so less sure), by strengthening their information.

But in a game meant to revolve around dayplay, I would not give the scum a role allowing them to overwhelm the town here.
I will acknowledge that the game might not have been FUN to play--but the game was balanced.

Fun is not something we're required to review for.
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Post Post #5536 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:15 pm

Post by Prism »

lol
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Post Post #5537 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:18 pm

Post by fferyllt »

Yeah, like I said, I don't expect anything to penetrate.

Prerogatives are there to be exercised.
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Post Post #5538 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:25 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5536, Prism wrote:lol
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Post Post #5539 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:28 pm

Post by fferyllt »

In post 5535, mastina wrote:Fun is not something we're required to review for.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but fun is what the game and the site exist for. It really should be part of your review criteria, though it's not easy to predict or reproduce what makes some games fun and others not so much.
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Post Post #5540 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:32 pm

Post by NoPowerOverMe »

Based on the level of activity I'd say the game was one of the most fun I've seen.
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Post Post #5541 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:37 pm

Post by NoPowerOverMe »

I would have preferred if my original design had been approved, but it was out of my hands. The reviewers are the experts and they know what the site trends are as far as scum and town winning.

I'm not sure why reviewers feel that town needs so much power, except that maybe town is lazy a lot of the time and expect the game to be handed to them. That obviously wasn't the case in this game.
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Post Post #5542 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:38 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

@mastina: basically don't feel like you're even arguing in good faith here, just trying to engage on letter of the law and commitment to balance; i can engage isis separately, thanks
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Post Post #5543 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:40 pm

Post by unwnd »

I'd rather play a minute grounded in reality setup that might be a little flavorless but still anticipates for day and nightplay than something that is just wacky
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Post Post #5544 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:00 pm

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 5535, mastina wrote:The presence of town power roles makes this inevitable--there will never be a setup where town have power roles where scum have unlimited control during the night, unless the scum have perfect counters to every scum role--which is inherently bad design and hugely scumsided.
just gonna say this is the kind of stuff prism called me scum for this game: a lot of goalpost moving to make my initial objection seem unreasonable with all these qualifiers like "unlimited" and "perfect"
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Post Post #5545 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:03 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 5542, borkjerfkin wrote:@mastina: basically don't feel like you're even arguing in good faith here
Oh I absolutely am, tho I do confess was rushed; I had another obligation to attend to, so I didn't have time to more eloquently put my thoughts in a coherent, structured form.

I'll stand by my assessment tho: no, I don't think this game was townsided. Yes, I feel the game was balanced. If this setup were run 100 times over and over again, I genuinely believe it would, approximately, be as close to 50:50 as is humanly possible. I don't think town wins this a disproportionately high amount of times; I don't think scum win a disproportionately high amount of times.

The setup might improve with some tweaks, e.g. scum being informed of the multiple killstoppers (with the tradeoff of an Informed being a guilty to the vanilla cop, resulting in a net-neutral tradeoff in balance that doesn't shift the expected winrate because the scum's extra information is at the cost of them being slightly more vulnerable), tweaks which'd keep it at 50:50ish but make it feel more fair.

But scum didn't need power here for it to be balanced. For it to be fun, well...see this:
In post 5539, fferyllt wrote: It really should be part of your review criteria, though it's not easy to predict or reproduce what makes some games fun and others not so much.
Precisely the problem--how can, non-omniscient, reviewers, predict what makes a game be fun or not be fun? Fun is something that is also largely subjective in that it's something specific to players.

In MD recently, you can see both topics of players saying "I wish there were more PR-heavy games so that we could solve a mechanical puzzle" AND topics of players saying "I wish games weren't so power role heavy so that players can solve more on dayplay"--games that are fun to the former will be less fun for the latter, and vice versa. It's impossible to conform to one crowd completely without alienating the other; the best solution is to try and, overall, strike a balance between the two.

I will say that I genuinely believed that a game with a heavy focus on dayplay due to the town having no truly impactful investigation role is one that I thought would be fun--this is the sort of game where scum couldn't be caught by the town PRs claiming, not outside of extreme situations. (By my estimation: scum stomps this 1-2 times out of ten by the town's PRs interfering with one another and them being mislynched; town stomps this 1-2 times out of ten by the scum's early deaths and the town repeatedly killstopping and poe-eliminating with full trust in all their PRs to be town; in the remaining 6-8 games, the results are some mixture of the two. And while either extreme happening would, obviously, be unfun with the town not enjoying getting stomped and the scum not enjoying getting stomped, I fully believed that in the 6-8 mid-ground games, the game would be fun.)

With the obvious focus on dayplay strength rather than nightplay strength, the scum would have agency to pull manipulations during the day, to powertown without fear of an investigative role fucking them over, to put up a good show and give the town a run for their money; with the obvious focus on dayplay strength rather than nightplay strength, the town would be forced to not rely on their power roles to win, to focus on their scumhunting, to pin down town not from roles but from play, almost never having an autowin and almost always having to earn it by identifying and eliminating the scum through sheer deduction.

That was something that I believed would be fun, because it gives the town a minor puzzle to solve (they can try to solve for which killstopper stopped a kill for instance), while still giving them a primarily play-oriented solve; it gives the scum freedom to not be caught by power roles, while still giving them a need to not utterly ignore the PRs altogether and giving them actual risk-reward analysis in their nightkills.

With the benefit of hindsight, my opinion has changed and shifted, into realizing that this heavy of kill-denial is a little overkill, and can easily generate an unfun environment. But even with my opinion having shifted to the game in hindsight having been unfun in design, I do stand by my statement that fun is not something we're required to review for. And it's for good reason: fun is subjective and hard to gauge; this is a game that easily in the review stage looks theoretically fun, but which with hindsight it becomes easy to identify as not fun. It's much harder to review for fun in advance due to how much variance in fun there is and how few things are universally unfun.
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Post Post #5546 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:25 pm

Post by NoPowerOverMe »

Part of the issue is figuring out the balance between how many power roles to have(power roles = fun) and wanting a game to be not overly swingy.
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Post Post #5547 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:47 pm

Post by implosion »

I'm happy to step in to this discussion (and I have been listening from the sidelines since seeing mastina's comment in the review topic (which is now public) and the complaints in the dead thread).

I'm sort of missing some context and I could go back and look for it but I feel like it will be easier to hear people answer very specifically: what, specifically, about the setup is it that makes people so adamant that it's the mod vs the players? This isn't a judgment call or anything, I just am not sure specifically what it is. Is it specifically the combination of roleblocker + doctor + jailkeeper? Is it the vanilla cop not having any specific interactions with anything else? My current understanding is that the frustration for town is that they can never be sure why a kill didn't happen and thus their roles are semi-useless because they can never confirm anyone, and the frustration for scum is just not being able to reliably push kills through.

I think at the moment I'm inclined to agree with mastina that this setup is probably roughly balanced, but I can definitely see the reason that it is balanced (namely, the fact that the town PRs are anti-synergistic in the presence of a large amount of raw town power relative to scum power) being a cause of un-fun-ness. I think reviewers do sometimes criticize setups for being unfun, but it's certainly not one of the main criteria looked at; the first criteria are balance and normalcy (both strictly to the definition and subjectively if it feels normal), then swing and fun and such are all sort of there but aren't like, explicit things to check off or anything like that. That could change in theory.
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Post Post #5548 (ISO) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:39 am

Post by fferyllt »

Is it possible to have the other PTs made public?
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Post Post #5549 (ISO) » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:32 am

Post by NoPowerOverMe »

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