Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh, not to mention that it goes from "I can see Imperium's argument" to (paraphrasing) "Imperium's argument is illogical".

[SirCakez]

What are you even talking about
They are different things completely
I said Imperium's reason for SRing me makes sense, but I'm criticizing their defense of Norfolk

[SirCakez]

399 was in reference to where Imperium said they SRed me because they didn't believe my post where I said Norfolk was dissuading scumhunting
Which I can still buy as a reason to SR me

[SirCakez]

In 383

[SirCakez]

You are just pulling random posts out of my ISO and going "look he's making up arguments"

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Okay, so scratch my last post about shifting viewpoints on Imperium's argument (because they're two different arguments), I give you that.

You /still/ have a disconnect that makes no sense between the two posts, because /Imperium/ is the one arguing that the scumreads on /Norfolk/ don't make sense. So no, they are /still/ /identical/ arguments.

[Imperium]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

[SirCakez]

Imperium is/was arguing scumreads on Norfolk don't make sense
I argued that part of your reasoning for scumreading me didn't make sense

What is the connection?

[SirCakez]

Also what do all the slashes mean?

[Imperium]

That's like saying "I don't understand townreads on Joe Schmo"
And then later going "Actually by the way I'm not declaring a read on Joe Schmo at all."

It doesn't connect logically.

It makes sense logically if you're actually playing mafia.

Joe Schmo's posts don't warrant the reads he got, someone is being disingenuous regardless of Joe Schmo's posts.

I thought we were playing mafia here and reading the whole room, my bad.

Tell me how to play this game again senpai, how am I supposed to scum hunt?

Ok but
If you're saying someone should not be getting certain reads
Then that logically implies you believe the opposite thing.

Like that's not a crazy connection to make????

I'm gonna try this one more time and then I'm stepping away.

And quite frankly, if I were scum here and posturing to look good on the outcome, knowing the outcome I'd just pick a side if I'm going to be centering some of my questions around this. I might suck as scum, but I'm damn sure talented and smart enough to do that.

Norfolk makes a couple nervous sounding posts that to me don't read terribly scummy. They don't read towny either; they're just posts.

Most players call that out as scum, which hey beginning of the game call things out as scummy. However, your interpretations of the posts don't match up to the post in question, and in one case reads like a deliberate misrepresentation of his posts. Ducchess has an interpretation that reads odd to me as well. Then unwnd replaces in and starts advocating for him to be shot for weak reasons as well.

I think those reads and all the scum reads reads oddly. If he's town, scum are pushing for an easy push. If scum, people are bussing. <---------- I'm interested in these reads. I'm interested in the pushes and reads that are not genuine regardless of Norfolk's alignment, which could be anything. (although yes there is a part of me that would like to believe that his opening posts are twtbaw but I don't place a whole lot of faith in that especially with his more recent posts.)

I don't understand why this is so confusing.

[SirCakez]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

Why do you/Tammy think people are "so confident" on Norfolk?
Not anywhere in this thread have i seen people expressing overtly confident scumreads on Norfolk

[SirCakez]

I don't think there is more to be gained from arguing on this point again Imperium it seems like we are not going to see eye to eye on this so no point clogging the thread

[Imperium]

This is so disingenuous
You literally wrote a wall defending Norfolk
For you to backpedal here and go "whoa I wasn't actually townreading them" feels like a lie

And in that wall she wrote "could be either or" when referring to his alignment, which is why I've been so rabidly trying to get people to offer up specifics on why they dislike our defense. If you actually read what she's saying you'll see that she's concerned with the number of people pushing Norfolk and the confidence that they're pushing him with. This doesn't mean she's defending Norfolk. It does mean that she doesn't agree with the push, but just because she doesn't have a scumread there doesn't mean that the only other possibility is a townread.

Why do you/Tammy think people are "so confident" on Norfolk?
Not anywhere in this thread have i seen people expressing overtly confident scumreads on Norfolk

Your read and interpretation read oddly. Your misrepresentation of the post where you claimed he was saying that he wasn't going to scum hunt read wrong.

Duchess had an interpretation I thought was odd and didn't agree with. (I've interacted with them there about this, and I can at least see where they're coming from.)

Unwnd was arguing he was gonna slank wasn't gonna do any better so should be shot.

I found all of these pushes odd.

So are you guys all town pushing in good faith with arguments I just don't like? If so, then the people who stuck him in their scum reads but aren't really pushing are probably where the scum lie.

[Imperium]

How is my play centered around shooting Norfolk?
Like, at all?

Norfolk is your top scum suspect. You've called for him to be shot or people to vote him several times. You've freaked out at us for defending Norfolk a couple of times now. You've been involved in most Norfolk-related discussions to add fuel to the fire. You haven't been invested in anything else vaguely resembling your Norfolk passion.

[Imperium]

[Imperium]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

[SirCakez]

How is my play centered around shooting Norfolk?
Like, at all?

Norfolk is your top scum suspect. You've called for him to be shot or people to vote him several times. You've freaked out at us for defending Norfolk a couple of times now. You've been involved in most Norfolk-related discussions to add fuel to the fire. You haven't been invested in anything else vaguely resembling your Norfolk passion.

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

[Imperium]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

Makes zero sense for you to have this interpretation.

Posture, as I understand it, is stance without substance. We haven't really taken a stance on Norfolk but we have provided plenty of substance. How is us digging @ people pushing Norfolk but not taking a stance setting ourselves up to look good?

[SirCakez]

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

/Emphasis./ I use a weird, custom made app for taking notes down that uses a weird variant of markdown (/ instead of *, basically, made for phones, where * can be harder to access), and it sticks when I type in other places because most people get the point and I don't care to fix it. It's muscle memory and it's readable, that's all I care about.

And Imperium isn't saying the scumreads don't make sense AT ALL, Imperium is saying the /reasons for them/ do not make sense. That they are insufficiently strong reasons to warrant a real scumread, in the strongest form (I'm unclear how strongly Imperium means it, so let's go with the furthest out possible version), which is /still fundamentally the same argument you made to me/. It's so close that it does indeed feel hard to believe you're arguing this way in good faith -- it should be blatantly obvious how closely related the two are.

PEDIT: Imperium beat me to restating it for the seventh time, but maybe it'll help to have me reword it also, just in case.

PEDIT 2: oh no don't let this be Death Curse all over again let me post

[SirCakez]

At this point it's not even about the Norfolk read
It feels like your play around them is incredibly posturey and setting yourself up to look good whether it flips town or scum

Makes zero sense for you to have this interpretation.

Posture, as I understand it, is stance without substance. We haven't really taken a stance on Norfolk but we have provided plenty of substance. How is us digging @ people pushing Norfolk but not taking a stance setting ourselves up to look good?

I thought posture meant setting up positions artificially in a way that is looking to help yourself in the game state.

I;e someone refusing to declare a read on a popular wagon that is imminently going to flip

[SirCakez]

Then stop talking lol
I've already said I don't want to discuss this anymore because nobody's mind is changing and it's just Mush you and I going in circles.

[Imperium]

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

You haven't declared him your top scumread but you've implied that he's your top scumread. If you're arguing otherwise you just really want me to fall to the dark side.

[SirCakez]

Uhhhh I never declared him my top SR or for him to be shot.
It's because it seems to be the only things people want to talk about. Just now I tried to step away from it and again got dragged back into it by Mush and you. I don't want to press this point anymore.

You haven't declared him your top scumread but you've implied that he's your top scumread. If you're arguing otherwise you just really want me to fall to the dark side.

????????????????????????????????????????????

[SirCakez]

I am not making another post about Norfolk until he posts again or something materially changes otherwise
This is a waste of time and other people need to talk