Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 2-7

Skoffín are straight out of the Uncanny Valley. They are said to be a chimera-like combination of Arctic Fox and domesticated cat. Their gaze is so deadly that everything that a skoffín looks at dies immediately, without even needing to look back at it. Their exact appearances vary and may even change color with the seasons like the Arctic fox does. Reports suggest that skoffíns are short-haired, with bald patches of skin throughout. Skoffín have been honored with their image on an Iceland postage stamp!

quiet

(2): fairyprincess69, Spartan117

floo

(2): Prism, Fredrick A Campbell

Spartan117

(1): flow trap

fairyprincess69

(1): floo

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Revised Deadline: January 31, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Revised Countdown: (expired on 2021-01-30 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Spartan117]

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

Also why in your order of scum to town, do you have fairy second, while you was voting her just a couple days ago? but now you have her more town above flow trap in your view, where is the progression with this? I had a town lean on sal myself but some of that was influenced by what appeared to be everyone going at sal while no one seemed to be defending her, and I wasn't able to decide who I would see as her scum buddy at the time for how things were playing out.

[Prism]

Why is floo your main target, why are they a better vote than Fredrick, Sal/Fairy, or Quiet?

Using your response to Frederick:

Why after Prism says they are never not voting floo in 1269 (something I still don't understand as there are far scummier players,

floo has actually been trying to solve the game and has natural reads

rather than just town reading everyone like quiet) does two posts later Fredrick vote floo without any reasoning what so ever, as if to jump on a band wagon yet again, it seems like their play style to vote whoever other people see as sus which is just major scum vibes and I seriously don't understand why people are town reading you at all.

Bolded I actively disagree with, Salsabil vote was very much working backwards. floo is trying to explain but the more he does the more it's clear that he had no consideration for what a town Salsabil reaction looks like. He literally just wanted to bait her and keep pushing her for being emotional. Main two posts where I explain this are 1264 and 1266

I touched on the rest of these slots minus Frederick in 1293.

Please show me where you see fredrick is actually trying? I feel its as if I am reading a completely different game to you guys are some of the posts hidden that he is posting?

I'm referring to the sequence of Frederick posts on Page 50. His posting isn't stellar and he's not a townread, I was using this purely to try and motivate flow trap. This will have to suffice for my answer on Frederick; I'm not voting a coinflip over a real scumread unless I have to. "Coinflip" is a bit generous but you get the point.

[Prism]

re: 1319 I guess I can see why you scumread quiet but this seems to be panic accusatory? Like that went a long way from grandstanding about how Frederick isn't town at all to voting quiet for either defending a scumbuddy or trying to get it voted in 5 way.

I guess it's logically consistent but quiet hits most of your criteria for townreading floo-active, well reasoned (he's explained the townread on me SEVERAL times at this point and at least once was exactly right) and the worst thing about the slot is having too many townreads. floo has been actively pushing Salsabil for being upset, baited more out of her, and when called on it has jumped through hoops about how he was looking for fear with....still no evidence he has seriously considered her emotions being legitimate as town at any point. Half of his last post was more about how he went too far/how he was sorry as though I'm voting him for showing no remorse. I'm voting him because he got a reaction that suggested her being upset

was legitimate

and done all sorts of gymnastics to why he should actually not really worry about it.

[Prism]

I'm about to have to head out for a bit but I'll be back in a few hours if anyone wants to talk then.

It is getting VERY close to the deadline but we do have time and don't need to vote just anybody yet.

[Spartan117]

Bolded I actively disagree with, Salsabil vote was very much working backwards. floo is trying to explain but the more he does the more it's clear that he had no consideration for what a town Salsabil reaction looks like.

Are you scum reading floo based of Sals reaction rather than the intent that floo had to try and gain a reaction from her?

Also you havent said why they are more sus than fredrick, fairy or quiet? just that you didnt like their interaction with Sal

[flow trap]

I'm not random voting and just because I don't state my reads doesn't mean I don't have them

Unhelpful

You are ignoring when I actually make reads

Contradicting and unhelpful...

You. Just. Proved. My. Point

[fairyprincess69]

Ah, realization

Ok I TR Salsa but very easily changeable

why did you start townreading salsa at this point?

I also agree that Enchant is acting scummy

how did enchant go from your townread to scumread? he was acting the same

@flow trap

[flow trap]

Ah, realization

Ok I TR Salsa but very easily changeable

why did you start townreading salsa at this point?

I also agree that Enchant is acting scummy

how did enchant go from your townread to scumread? he was acting the same

@flow trap

I believe I have said the Enchant TR was a bluff as was the Salsa TR

[Spartan117]

I'm referring to the sequence of Frederick posts on Page 50. His posting isn't stellar and he's not a townread, I was using this purely to try and motivate flow trap. This will have to suffice for my answer on Frederick; I'm not voting a coinflip over a real scumread unless I have to. "Coinflip" is a bit generous but you get the point.

I will have to disagree with you on this, while there may be 8 posts in succession I see it as more of a elongated prodge, I did't feel like it contributed much to the discussion and I defo dont understand those that townread him for it.

[Spartan117]

I'm not random voting and just because I don't state my reads doesn't mean I don't have them

Unhelpful

You are ignoring when I actually make reads

Contradicting and unhelpful...

You. Just. Proved. My. Point

Which point?

[quiet]

Also why in your order of scum to town, do you have fairy second, while you was voting her just a couple days ago? but now you have her more town above flow trap in your view, where is the progression with this? I had a town lean on sal myself but some of that was influenced by what appeared to be everyone going at sal while no one seemed to be defending her, and I wasn't able to decide who I would see as her scum buddy at the time for how things were playing out.

I’ll respond to your longer wall of questions in a sec, but I think this post pretty well encapsulates most of your concerns in the longer one.

A few days ago, I bought into the over-defensive Salsa as scum world. Getting to the point of replacing out? Then being replaced by someone who entered the game in exactly the manner I did as town, giving rather good reads as far as I can determine? My only concern is that Fairy’s read on flow trap felt a little sheepy, but I realized they were a little more reserved on that, so I’m tabling that suspicion for now.

Maybe I’m wrong to be protecting Fred right now. I’d be far more willing to vote them at the end of today than I was at the start of the day, especially when it felt like most of this town was willing to vote them from the start. Given the suicide that started this game, I wasn’t looking for another LHF situation. Given where I’m at now, where I challenge anyone in this game to give me a single solid “oh wow, clear scumslip from my perspective” kind of read, where most players are working hard to be as pro-town as possible, yourself included, I’m struggling hard to feel great about my reads. My problem is that Fredrick is mostly just Null. Do I think it’s more likely that I’m getting played by good scum, or that Fred is just lazy/lurkey scum? They’ve given me practically nothing to go off of, and I was REALLY hoping that by giving them some hope till the end of the day, one strong defender saying “no, let’s not elim there”, I might get some sort of response. The honey to your vinager. Unfortunately, I got basically nothing but an unexplained Floo and therefore partner Spartian read, which even after asking for clarification I have no further insight on other than it’s not utterly without merit, it seems somewhat plausible, but utterly unhelpful with sorting them.

As for flow trap, I’m town on them. I remain town on them. At the moment when I posted that list, however, Fairy sold me hook line and sinker on town Salsa. Additionally, as fond as I am of our resident chaos god, I’m rather put out by a few of the recent posts. I don’t love the “no one listens to me so why bother” angle.

So the reality is, someone is playing me. Prism looks really really bad if floo flips town. I’m trying to form some kind of associatives or something based on Fred, but the reality is if Fred flips town, I genuinely don’t know who we’re going to be blaming, or exactly who we find to elim tmmrw. That’s my vague rational behind that progression.

[Spartan117]

@Quiet who's flip do you think provides us with the most information?

[flow trap]

Prism, I apologize for acting like a jerk sometimes; I have decided to trust you can will answer (almost) anything you ask to the best of my ability

It's okay, and I appreciate this.

Personally, I want to know why you don't really want to vote floo today.

That said, my whole point here is that it's a team game. I'm not the only channel/avenue to dialogue through; I don't think talking to scum is the worst thing in the world and there are other town with thoughts as valid as mine. I'm down to talk about any slot you want, and I imagine quiet is as well.

I have a bad habit of just TRing the first person to make a move and then basically ignoring them for the rest of the game...

This is why I decided to ISO them to see if I still want to TR them

They start off with a town vote, but then they play "I don't want to seem suspicious" post which I believe is #77. However; I do find their explanation (351) to be completely valid as I have stated before town shouldn't go out of their way to seem suspicious which is fair as they were indeed going for that POV. Some solid posts between 77 and 351. Their next post (355) worries me; I believe it was brought up how Salsa was suspicious due to taking a joke seriously, I'm getting the same sort of vibe here. In post 348 they reinforce the "town shouldn't go out of their way to be suspicious" idea which I find town as well as this:

"Hello I'm Mafia I want to blend in!" - floo
"OK Mafia" - Sal

Sarcastic annoyance=town IMO

States a suspicion on Zoomer in 439 which I will come back to later. Then they have a streak of neutral posts. I found 1005 off, I don't like how they push here , probably it's because they are adding fuel to the FaC+Enchant idea. Back to Zoomer, I found the eating to be a double-edged sword on the town side mafia doesn't usually want to kill their fake scum reads, but on the other hand, they acknowledged that Zoomer was widely TRed so they were aware of it.

Day 2

I found their push overall towny, it does have a few lows, however. Reading it back it is sounding mildly tunnely since they are talking about salsa 90% of their early posts, not that I find that suspicious. The emotional push could go either way as Town determination or Mafia emotional shutdown. I had to skim the latter half of their posts and nothing stood out.

Overall I still find floo town

[fairyprincess69]

I believe I have said the Enchant TR was a bluff as was the Salsa TR

a bluff how exactly? what were your motives in outing a TR in those two players in that moment?

[flow trap]

See https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12523050

[Spartan117]

re: 1319 I guess I can see why you scumread quiet but this seems to be panic accusatory? Like that went a long way from grandstanding about how Frederick isn't town at all to voting quiet for either defending a scumbuddy or trying to get it voted in 5 way.

I guess it's logically consistent but quiet hits most of your criteria for townreading floo-active, well reasoned (he's explained the townread on me SEVERAL times at this point and at least once was exactly right) and the worst thing about the slot is having too many townreads. floo has been actively pushing Salsabil for being upset, baited more out of her, and when called on it has jumped through hoops about how he was looking for fear with....still no evidence he has seriously considered her emotions being legitimate as town at any point. Half of his last post was more about how he went too far/how he was sorry as though I'm voting him for showing no remorse. I'm voting him because he got a reaction that suggested her being upset

was legitimate

and done all sorts of gymnastics to why he should actually not really worry about it.

Not panic accusatory at all, are you scared your scum buddy has a couple votes on them? I don't know the solution to this puzzle I am trying to view all possible scenarios that make sense to me, a Prism/(Sal/Fairy) is also included in that in my view. floo is a stronger town read for me atm and how you are going at them defending a potential Sal teamate (or using the sal V floo situation) looks a bit opportunistic, I don't see a floo/Prism team at all, my concern is on the possibility it is TvT and we have an imposter team of two from Quiet/Fredrick/FlowTrap/Fairy hmm I feel like I'm the opposite of Quiet where I'm sussing everyone where he town reads everyone.

[fairyprincess69]

See https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12523050

what's the purpose in putting potential scum in a relaxed state?

[flow trap]

Betrayal.

[Spartan117]

Prism, I apologize for acting like a jerk sometimes; I have decided to trust you can will answer (almost) anything you ask to the best of my ability

It's okay, and I appreciate this.

Personally, I want to know why you don't really want to vote floo today.

That said, my whole point here is that it's a team game. I'm not the only channel/avenue to dialogue through; I don't think talking to scum is the worst thing in the world and there are other town with thoughts as valid as mine. I'm down to talk about any slot you want, and I imagine quiet is as well.

I have a bad habit of just TRing the first person to make a move and then basically ignoring them for the rest of the game...

This is why I decided to ISO them to see if I still want to TR them

They start off with a town vote, but then they play "I don't want to seem suspicious" post which I believe is #77. However; I do find their explanation (351) to be completely valid as I have stated before town shouldn't go out of their way to seem suspicious which is fair as they were indeed going for that POV. Some solid posts between 77 and 351. Their next post (355) worries me; I believe it was brought up how Salsa was suspicious due to taking a joke seriously, I'm getting the same sort of vibe here. In post 348 they reinforce the "town shouldn't go out of their way to be suspicious" idea which I find town as well as this:

"Hello I'm Mafia I want to blend in!" - floo
"OK Mafia" - Sal

Sarcastic annoyance=town IMO

States a suspicion on Zoomer in 439 which I will come back to later. Then they have a streak of neutral posts. I found 1005 off, I don't like how they push here , probably it's because they are adding fuel to the FaC+Enchant idea. Back to Zoomer, I found the eating to be a double-edged sword on the town side mafia doesn't usually want to kill their fake scum reads, but on the other hand, they acknowledged that Zoomer was widely TRed so they were aware of it.

Day 2

I found their push overall towny, it does have a few lows, however. Reading it back it is sounding mildly tunnely since they are talking about salsa 90% of their early posts, not that I find that suspicious. The emotional push could go either way as Town determination or Mafia emotional shutdown. I had to skim the latter half of their posts and nothing stood out.

Overall I still find floo town

I like this, makes me feel better about flow trap.

[flow trap]

I like this, makes me feel better about flow trap.

[fairyprincess69]

gonna make a quick note here that as of page 30, spartan townreads Enchant according to his #746, while the wagon is pretty firmly on enchant. interested to see if he will commit to defending his townread or just let him die (i think he had been compiling this reads posts for sometime while the wagon was forming, so he might not have caught up with the events of the game yet)

his analysis of Prism in #746 is also pretty interesting, in that it reads as a null or even scumnull conclusion. i'm expecting scum to just outright townread Prism here to avoid a confrontation. also interesting that Spartan completely ignores Prism's interactions with Frederick, or at least neglects to mention them. Spartan's man fos is Frederick, so i'd expect him to take these interactions seriously, as i think this is potentially some ammo for his scumread. wouldn't he also factor into his analysis of Prism the fact that Prism is pressing Fred pretty hard? This is Spartan's main fos afterall - weird how he doesn't mention it.

i don't like Spartan's read list overall. he's just picking out things people have done/said and calling them scummy or towny. there's no focus on people's play

holistically

. i don't townread this math assessment of people - the "well they did 3 scummy things and 3 townie things, so overall null" there's no focus on how someone's play has evolved throughout the game. i'm hoping for better reads that i can resonate with later.

[Spartan117]

I like this, makes me feel better about flow trap.

What's that suppose to be? for your reference the reason I like your post is that I like how you didn't just join the current status quo and jump on the wagon of scumfloo and actually tried to assess it yourself and produce your own read.

[flow trap]

It's not important

[fairyprincess69]

Spoiler:

I don't like how you are more concerned with voting with the pack and joining a train rather than following your scummiest scum read, that stinks of scum wanting to hide amongst town.

It bothers me on your disregard for who your voting, rather than having some more pinpoint accuracy on how scummy your read is, instead youre happier to vote off anyone who you may have a scum lean on rather than a more solid read on.

In post 446, esotericzoomer wrote:
i would like to ask for towncred

EZ seems much more interested in being town read than act

Oof. This post scumpinged me hard. And I was really liking Spartian up to that point.

These feel like really bad faith arguments. EZ also had some previous suspicion on them from floo and at least one other, so it would be a sensible place for scum to push on. This post earned you an iso.

also, I’ll note that flows response to Prisim’s post was more...flow being flow. Little one liners, quick statements. The form culture shock and arrogance as a defense mechanism were both nice touches. I read flow has enjoying themselves, and the response NAI like every other thing they’ve done. Sound like a broken record, I’ll probably not post about that slot any further today.

So there was a interesting, slightly emotional/confrontational set of interactions between flow trap and Salsa in the early 400s. I don’t read it as AI for either of them really, though at this point I maintain my null on flow and lean town on Salsa. However, this quote from Prism really caught my eye.

I really hate to be blunt but it's better I do it now than later.

flow trap, you need to put your ego aside this game. It's getting in the way of you being effective and are making you elim bait.

You've taken the exact same dismissive attitude to players repeatedly throughout the game. Your explanations for why range from lackluster to promises of galaxy brain plans. Stating that you're not vulnerable to bias due to experience misses the entire point of bias.

I support you pressuring for a read but I don't support you continuing to be evasive/dismissive of concerns and questions under the guise of big brain. It forces me to guess whether you're being egotistical, malicious, or both.

I read this as incredibly towny. Faking solving the game is one thing, but faking trying to fix a town dynamic that could lead to a miselim based on your reads (as in, faking building town cohesion) seems...really really hard.

Prism is way more experienced, so I guess it’s conceivable that this is within their scum range, so like flow trap to some degree I probably want to be a little slow with my townread. However, this is such a specific play, and it feels super towny to me.

fug it lmao quiet is townie af. im continually resonating/mind melding with everyting quiet is posting.

>spartan opportunistically pushing EZ
>prism wanting the game on the right track
>flow playing for fun [mentioned this in my earlier assessment of flow]

really felt safebet could be a scum slot but now im having doubts. lets see if i continue to agree with his assessments of the game