TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[AGar]

I kind of want to call mastina town for so steadfastly scum reading me and I know she as town just sometimes treats slots like this, but like it's probably not out of her scum range either?

Meta is horseshit rabble rabble rabble but like... obstinately being wrong about a player is the easiest shit to replicate.

[Winter Flakes]

no other takes outside of what I've posted

@tw

ladys frustration with Mastina comes off townie to me

[the worst]

imagine me narrowing my eyebrows slightly at Mastina, guarding my expression

pedit: is it towny genuine frustration or just genuine genuine frustration?

[Dannflor]

no other takes outside of what I've posted

@tw

ladys frustration with Mastina comes off townie to me

really? that feels explicitly NAI given it seems to be a player issue outside of this game

pedit what the worst said

[mastina]

(429 is another instance of a post which looks good and looks reasonable and which shows an evolution in thought process that looks like it comes from town but which I don't think actually does come from town. But I'm not sure I can explain it.)

LLD can be town. I think her case is a little flawed on Hercule, but the thought process tracks given she wasn't in the last game.

The problem with that: in a game with a lot of raw talent skilled at both townplay and scumplay where every scum player (or close to every scum player) is at the top-level of scumplay (or close to), you're not going to catch scum by any "oh, lol, that's scum obviously and clearly and unambiguously". (Even tho I'm in the 90% certainty that LLD and Dann are scum, it is not for things that are obvious/clear/unambiguous; it is for subtle things backed by anecdotal experience.)

In a game with the highest-caliber of players being scum, you're going to catch scum when their viewpoints contain 'little flaws', so to speak, and LLD's case against hercule is exactly that: it is flawed, in a way that, yes, is scum-indicative. The thought process doesn't fully track especially given this is TEAM Mafia. LLD has teammates who could fill her in on what they know of last game, and then there's also the ban announcements for last game for extra context there, and that's beyond the fact that last iteration of the game is a talking point in this game, meaning that checking out last game has some actual value to it.

[Dannflor]

429 is another instance of a post which looks good and looks reasonable and which shows an evolution in thought process that looks like it comes from town but which I don't think actually does come from town. But I'm not sure I can explain it.

okay I'll shut up about your read on me from now on

but I swear you're going to quote every single one of my posts and say some variation of exactly this

[the worst]

But I'm not sure I can explain it.

How about

p

e

r

f

o

r

m

a

t

i

v

e

.

?

[Xtoxm]

I need to go soon and I feel like this interaction was not a valuable use of my time :/

if people sr you before you engage the game i'll scowl at them and judge them silently
go take care of yourself <3

[the worst]

Thank you - I'm trying but acutely aware I am small brain at the moment.

actually I'll be here for about 15 minutes then unsure if I'll come back so

@implo - v/la for about 3 days

[Dannflor]

But I'm not sure I can explain it.

How about

p

e

r

f

o

r

m

a

t

i

v

e

.

?

Spoiler:

[the worst]

I'm laughing but I'm legitimately sad you put the last sentence in there

[innocentvillager]

Even tho I'm in the 90% certainty that LLD and Dann are scum

sorry fmpov it is difficult to take your reads seriously when you say things like this. it seems likely to me that you are probably overconfident in your reads and way off on the percentages, especially when multiple people have expressed empirical concerns with your reads

[mastina]

VOTE: the worst

Stop voting Hercule? Why

Because hercule is transparently town this game in a way that's nearly impossible to fake even WITHOUT taking last game into account--and GIVEN last game, IS truly impossible to fake.

@mastina how can you possibly call anyone locktown this early? what does that mean to you? give me a little insight into how you approach scumhunting in a game like this

I can call players locktown through a combination of meta/anecdotal evidence, resonance with aspects of their posting (especially if they're vibing), having reasons to believe their play cannot be from scum, and mostly...strong gut vibes, combined with a bit of tonereading and general tells.

I have three metrics which I read people by: general tells (things that, generically, I feel are more likely to be true for an alignment and how that alignment approaches the game in general, but which are increased or decreased in accuracy by playstyle of the players I am using them on), specific tells (things that're specific to the player in question), and what amounts to trust; a trust in the competency of other individuals that I am, overall, townreading, who raise good points/reads that make me feel "they might be right". (This is a double-edged sword; it increases my ability to work with town and can hone my inaccurate reads and guide them to accuracy, but it also can steer me away from accurate reads that the collective groupthink I place trust in got wrong.)

Behind the scenes, I am always running the math in my head towards the chances of players being town/scum--a lot of my doubts never make it into the thread because if I feel like expressing the doubt does no good, I won't express it. I'll only express thoughts that I feel are productive and which further the information/process/etc. of the town.

This tends to manifest as a type of hyper-aggression with strong aggro, with the goal of getting nightkilled by the scum early from radiating townness and my reads, if remotely close to accurate, representing a threat to the scum in part due to if I have an accurate scumread, I almost never let go of it (see also, you/Ceph last game).

On D1, I am fully aware that a perfect solve is impossible to achieve, so I tend to settle for "good enough for D1" solves. Because there are more town than there are scum, it is more important to correctly identify town than it is to correctly identify scum on D1. If you have a townbloc that is entirely town on D1, then you increase the chances of a scum elimination exponentially every single day you are alive and that townbloc is entirely made of town. (Thus, why having two scum as lockscum, but two scum as absolute townreads, is something I consider an objective failure. On D1, having a purity in townreads being town is more important than having 100% accurate scumreads.)

So because I know I can't get a perfect solve on D1, I try to get the best solve possible: a fully town townbloc, with enough scum in the poe for scum to be threatened.

can you give some more detail on why you think it's a dann-scum post? I do value meta but only when it's explained in a way that's digestible for me.

Basically, Dannflor's post there doesn't match his approach from last game where he was town but does match my experience with him when he has been scum.

Dannflor when he is town doesn't try to appear town--he just IS town, and he shows it, radiates it, with genuine, nuanced, detailed thought processes that are easy to follow and are, largely, agreeable, and his cases have serious merit to them. (If I was to be swayed on Xtoxm being scum last game, it'd have been from him--you may have noted that even when I defended Xtoxm from Dannflor's case there, I actually

couldn't

address EVERY point of it. There was at least one point within which I had no answer to, because his case had merit.)

Dannflor's posting this game DOES look like it's trying to appear to be town. Instead of naturally radiating town, it feels like his townness is forced, with him forcing thoughts that, while they are detailed with some nuances to them and are easy enough to follow, are not as sincere in depth with a lack of truly great thought/analysis put into them. His posts look good, but don't resonate as actually being good.

[innocentvillager]

Because if I based my yeet pool around players who's posting style I can't stand, my yeet pool would be at least a dozen players. Old man good at separating playstyle from whether I think you're scum or not.

thnk u agar respect that! speaking of i went back and was reminded of this

I am not going to nolife this game.
I am not going to "hang around" after I post if I have something else to do or even just don't feel like staring at a mafia game spamming F5.
I am not going to ignore my job or my other responsibilities to post repeatedly in this game.
I am going to do my damndest to avoid spam posting because the very thought rips the will to play out of my soul

and as i read each line felt more and more attacked because that's exactly what i do LOL

[OkaPoka]

you'll see me wondering why mastina chooses to vote LLD over dann then especially given most people townread LLD

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh dude I forgot Agar was in this game

it's been ages

[innocentvillager]

Because there are more town than there are scum, it is more important to correctly identify town than it is to correctly identify scum on D1. If you have a townbloc that is entirely town on D1, then you increase the chances of a scum elimination exponentially every single day you are alive and that townbloc is entirely made of town.

the rest of your post was interesting but this is a very bizarre mindset to me that i cannot seem to agree with

[Cephrir]

In a game with the highest-caliber of players being scum, you're going to catch scum when their viewpoints contain 'little flaws', so to speak, and LLD's case against hercule is exactly that: it is flawed, in a way that, yes, is scum-indicative. The thought process doesn't fully track especially given this is TEAM Mafia. LLD has teammates who could fill her in on what they know of last game, and then there's also the ban announcements for last game for extra context there, and that's beyond the fact that last iteration of the game is a talking point in this game, meaning that checking out last game has some actual value to it.

this seems pretty silly. last game is barely relevant, and she is hardly the type of person who would think she needed to be filled in about it to play this game

429 is another instance of a post which looks good and looks reasonable and which shows an evolution in thought process that looks like it comes from town but which I don't think actually does come from town. But I'm not sure I can explain it.

okay I'll shut up about your read on me from now on

but I swear you're going to quote every single one of my posts and say some variation of exactly this

annoying, right?

[mastina]

you can't just completely emulate your town game, you have to still make organic reads

This is EXACTLY the reason why I am scumreading LLD, Dannflor, and the worst, basically, in a nutshell, while also townreading most of the other players in the game.

Most of the other players in the game have organic thoughts, reads, and posting overall, especially you/IV/Oka/Hopkirk. Their shown process looks highly fluid, natural, and entirely unforced, with it being something they generated naturally and effortlessly.

LLD, Dannflor, the worst, and similar, are all insanely good scum players--they are incredibly skilled at emulating their towngame, and also at maximizing the subtle differences in a way that benefits them by knowing how to make content that appears town even without it being town.

The difference between their towngames and their scumgames isn't going to be night and day--the difference between their towngames and their scumgames is going to be in the range of 1-5%. 95-99% identical to their towngame, with only the slightest of subtle differences between the two. The 1-5% is how you catch them when they are scum and it is in the small things.

The exact narratives they are pushing. How they are pushing. Who they are pushing. When they are pushing. Small differences in the type of content being posted, largely boiling down to fluidity of thought process, with how natural/organic they are; there is an inherent level of artificial stiltedness in their scumgames compared to their towngames because they cannot perfectly appear town.

And I feel like LLD and Dannflor in particular have shown that level of subtle, but present, inorganic nature of their reads.

[mastina]

why are the worst and winter flakes so afk

wostie--possibly due to being scum, tho I'll admit that of my four scumreads, he's probably the one most likely to be wrong. (That, or second-most-likely; Titus is up there, too, in that I only have one post of overwhelming gut vibes for Titus scum whereas worstie I have more than that in subtle things.)

Winter Flakes--doesn't seem that afk to me, seems comparable to last game.

[mastina]

brain no understand
was this referring to her scumread on LLD or in general her reads list

I legit don't understand how it isn't understandable--
IV said that he was townreading LLD most of all (except for me, tied with her).
I said that was a big mistake, that LLD is scum.
I named players who should be in a position to more or less be able to see where I am coming from in terms of LLD being scum.

your vote should be on ducky until he starts quacking

Sure,
VOTE: the worst
But as I said: as the scumread I am least-confident in, I reserve the right to vote for one of my more confident scumreads in the form of LLD or Dann.

[Dunnstral]

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

They're doing the same exact type of posting where they don't acknowledge a lot of what is going on, even stuff directed at them

I don't understand how Auro's read on Hercule makes them town

[mastina]

so ducky are you caught up? what are your takes on this game

i read page one and the last page and that dannflor post mastina quoted is sending off fireworks in my brain

See this for examples of why worstie is the least-likely to be scum in my scumreads and why I prefer,
VOTE: Dannflor
instead.

[mastina]

Look, you want to kill me? Burden of Proficiency me. Give me one day to decide who dies, and if they flip town, kill me.

This sounds awfully familiar to me.

I seem to recall it being almost verbatim from a certain scumgame of yours.

[mastina]

and partly wanted to go full transparency on what I was thinking so people town read me because I was having a bad day and irritated about mastina scum reading me

So correct me if I am wrong.

But I got the impression.

That the worst was asking you why you made post 302--that's the only post of yours I had quoted at that time, and worstie said that he read a post of yours that I had quoted around that time.

So, worstie was asking you why you made post 302 from my impression, but if so:

Spoiler: my scumread on you at the time

Hot shitposty take: the scumteam is Xtoxm, DGB, LLD, and then one of {Titus, Dann, tw, jjh, Dunn} due to none of them posting so soon yet all confirmations being in.

can we get a hammer by page 10?

Sorry, but if y'all wagoned Xtoxm up to L-1, then you can have a blind page 11ish lolhammer:
VOTE: Xtoxm

let’s do the time warp again
VOTE: ythan

(Gutwise tho I legit think Dann could be scum here. I should do a cross-check/reference, but Ythan does seem pretty similar to last game to me, and this doesn't seem like a good rvs and certainly not a serious scumread vote.)

we had a vibe going Dann

Wanna try and speedwagon a player of a ridiculously high caliber, Dann, with every intent to eliminate him, just for a vibe-ruin?

I'd be down for it.
(Dann legit feels vibe-wise off here.)

Titus
Dannflor
Xtoxm
scum.

I wasn't even voting you, and I wasn't hard-pushing you at the time; why was me, of all people, scumreading you but not pushing you strongly, enough of an irritant?