Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[RLotus]

That was just entertaining what Netflix was talking about at the time. I try not to look too far into associative but it's always in the back of my mind lol

So egging it on haha

[unwnd]

Yes but egging on that I prefer Duchess as my wording there implies I'd prefer to shoot Duchess to resolve you

[petapan]

Peta are you making a D2 list of that? I like the idea. It feels like you stole it from somewhere but definitely not complaining

i did steal the idea initially when i used it in FGO, but that was slightly different circumstances. i had the idea to do it again here because there's no formal voting or anything of the like and it'd be better to keep a record of it

i did start one for day 2 and was planning on postign it but obviously things have shifted pretty dramatically

[unwnd]

The problem with Dunn's interruption is that he looked at what me and Imperium were doing, not necessarily what was being said. Him implying that either me or Tammycho wanting you to be shot was again, not even remotely true. That shot form Netflix was of their own volition

[unwnd]

Peta are you making a D2 list of that? I like the idea. It feels like you stole it from somewhere but definitely not complaining

i did steal the idea initially when i used it in FGO, but that was slightly different circumstances. i had the idea to do it again here because there's no formal voting or anything of the like and it'd be better to keep a record of it

i did start one for day 2 and was planning on postign it but obviously things have shifted pretty dramatically

If you're town I have something I wanna do that probably spews your alignment and no it is does not involve shooting you

[Imperium]

look there's a reason i went on this tangent to begin with. it's because i was composing this while i was catching up:



this is, to the best i could manage, a record of who people were calling scum on day 1. i threw this together becausein a game with no votes, data matters, accountability matters, and i want a RECORD of who was calling for who to be shot

that imperium line? not an accident. when i was filling it out i couldn't any sense for WHO they actually scumread, which is part of what disturbed me. seriously. go back and read day 1 and try to tell me who their scumreads were. instead we got posts like this:

That means I don’t have any of the people I could see picking me low enough on it.

Tammy are you still around? Do you think this is a dumb rabbit hole to dig into?

I don't know. It's something I've been trying to figure out myself. I thought that if you were given the gun purposefully, they might have been planning to kill us the first chance they got based on potential overlap.

I didn't give you the gun.

Cakez is I don't know. He's either town who decided I was scum early in RVS, I was just looking back at that, and he's confirm biasing everything I write and missing every point I make and moving goal posts because he's just that confirm biased. People do do that, and some posts do feel somewhat townish, but man I don't know.

Dunnstral doesn't feel like scum to me, but I don't know if I'm writing him off too easily. We were in the anon dance game together, and he replaced into a scum slot and the way he pushed things were just really wrong, so I've been looking for pushes that feel weird and I don't see it. Right now he feels more like he did in xeno and tenet. Not a strong read, but.

Norfolk I'm not sure about. I don't think that the opening posts deserved the push they got, I didn't like yesterday's posts that much and I thought he might have been appeasing Cakez by calling him misguided town, but today's posts felt a little better. I'm going to continue to fence sit here. I know that's really weird for me to do, but that's where I am.

So, yeah I don't know. Numbers wise, there should be scum in there right? But I don't know where to place it right now with any certainty.

of course, now they've settled on a team that includes me and the 4 least productive players in the game, which is pretty ludicrous, but i admit, it's

something

this is also why i asked people for who their shot choices would be when i replaced in - i was going to try to track how people's stances changed and if they were possibly shifting them to encourage rlotus to shoot someone he already suspected but they had previously not mentioned much - i wanted to see if anyone's reads were shifting in an agenda-y way

I'm just going to put this interaction here. Because Petapan is not being genuine or paranoid or anything. Meta does exist, and experience does exist. The interaction below is an interaction in a very recent game between me and Petapan. In that game, peta and I hadn't played together for years, since 2013 I think? I was expecting in that game to come under suspicion by Peta; think I remembered him as someone who has a bit of trouble reading me, and I knew he wouldn't remember how I played. But in the game I'm referencing below, we were in the game until almost end game together, and he saw me being very waffly, uncertain and not having scum reads I felt good about in the beginning of the game.

In the post above, he's trying to sound very genuinely concerned with his table and my lack of scum reads, which is total garbage. He's not trying to read me. Not by what he's just experienced of my game nor of what was going on in this game. He's narrative building.

Now the below doesn't mean he has to town read me for waffling or not having any strong suspects at that point. But the post he brings up does ignore the fact that I had recently had a very strong suspicion on Cakez which then dwindled during the interaction. I think a town Peta would be taking into account what he knows of me as a player instead of trying to narrative build that me not having a strong suspect at that point is suspicious. Gonna stop with why Peta is scum here because we'll get to that in our reads list when Nacho gets home.

Subject: Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

tammy i wish you had more thoughts on this game and not on old games

Me too!

dammit we crossposted and then my browser went out and I lost my post.

It wasn't anything great, but it is apropos to this post so I'll just rewrite it as a reply.

I've got some free time today so I'll actually be able to read this game mostly undistracted and not while also trying to work. Before my actual read, I've got working town reads on midwaybear, ffery, cabd, sryry. I don't even know why on midwaybear though; I just remember liking this posts.

I was looking at the playerlist last night and I realized that I don't actually have active suspicions on anyone*. Some pings here and there which has me wondering if it's setup related or if scum are in the people that I just haven't seen posting much? I don't know; hopefully a reread fixes that.

Although! If you're vote on me was serious, it's wrong, but I think you'll realize that once I have some thoughts on the game after actually reading it. I hope. I hope I have thoughts.

[Norfolk Boy1]

Nah I think Duchess red makes Imperium red more likely

Posts 1161 and 1286 are attempts by Duchess to cosy up to Imperium. It's pocketing, not teammates.

[Imperium]

RLotus if you get the gun are you just shooting Duchess immediately? That'd be pretty worthless and I'd like to hear your other thoughts as you've made the majority of your content around Duchess being obvscum and I guess Norfolk

Though I will say that while I don't believe the egging on comment, this post has concerned me. When I went back and reread the conversation last night after Lotus said he could see it as egging on, I wondered if this was a bit of a leak.

Brought it up to nacho, but he doesn't share this concern because he said that this was his concern as well. When I talked to him on the phone, he said Lotus is an okay shot but worried that he would immediately shoot Duchess who Nacho was town leaning at the time, so he would have asked this question as well.

But for me, I'm kinda

[petapan]

Imperium, I think your scumread of petapan relies a lot on BoP. I really liked your reasoning on why you are probably not with norfolk, but it is quite elborate and not the conclusion I would have come to on my own, let alone someone just beginning to soak up the game.

My read on him is BoP. Petapan is what we like to call a transcendent talent in the game of mafia, and the danger of this combination is that I've played with him enough to have a damn good idea of how he thinks and approaches and analyzes the game as town. BoP reads are the only reads I go this nuclear on simply because there are points in a game where scum HAVE to take certain positions in order to get certain mislynches win the game and that's exactly what he did here.

And I know that you don't know me and that we haven't played together, but trust that I see something here. I am a 12 year veteran of the game on this site and most of those were concurrent; mafia a huge person I am who I am today. The person that I'm hydraing with is my girlfriend who I have been dating for 6 years is someone that I met on this site - I was at one time the top poster out of all the crap ton of users that was here and as you can see I hydra fairly fucking frequently and I'm not afraid of making posts that take hours and hours to craft. I know trust is hard to give when you have no idea who I am but trust me when I say that mafia is in my blood and trust me that if you shoot peta or you shoot me so I can put the bullet in his head myself that I will deliver us a win here.

i have no idea where the fuck the BoP read is coming from on me, seeing as

no one has been flipped since i entered the game

, and to be honest, it kind of pisses me off. i've always considered myself an average town player at best, good in some areas but with huge flaws that i am completely unable to correct, and i was never really able to think in the analytical fashion forum mafia needs, so when i get held to some standard that is in my eyes unattainable it makes me mad. seriously, i wasn't renowned for my townplay. but now i'm under siege because i dared to question you, and i guess apparently i'm lockscum for that even though

there is literally no benefit to me going against you this day phase as scum

, and i would think you'd be aware of that!

[Imperium]

but now i'm under siege because i dared to question you, and i guess apparently i'm lockscum for that

one note pony

[petapan]

good bait, you almost got me there

[unwnd]

Feel I answered sufficiently per my wording there Tammycho

[petapan]

i don't think it's fair to compare me to a single towngame and say i'm playing different when i'm not really playing like i do as scum either and getting into this fight is an objectively terrible terrible play as scum lol

[Imperium]

Feel I answered sufficiently per my wording there Tammycho

You might have and nacho agrees. When I pointed it out last night, he was like And? I don't understand you're concern, and then after I explained it was like nah I think you're wrong to be concerned.

The more nacho gets convinced on things, the more I start freaking out and reanalyzing and making sure every ping is accounted for and deciphered. Do you remember how strongly Nacho town read Noraa in Tenet? After he wrote that wall and declared her near IC status, I meta'd the hell out of her and kept bringing up little things to question whether or not he was right lol.

[Imperium]

i don't think it's fair to compare me to a single towngame and say i'm playing different when i'm not really playing like i do as scum either and getting into this fight is an objectively terrible terrible play as scum lol

Where did I compare you to a single town game and say you're playing different? I thought I just posted an example of you having experience with me, questioning me, and knowing that even much much later in a previous game that I still wasn't sure on who my suspects were while acting like you don't know that about me here.

It's

notable

that you're trying to act like getting into an argument with me here is objectively terrible for you scum, which is debatable, but don't consider the same with regards to my cakez argument.

If we're right about your team and gamestate, you have to scum read us here. It's positional as is your MUSH push.

[petapan]

It's notable that you're trying to act like getting into an argument with me here is objectively terrible for you scum, which is debatable, but don't consider the same with regards to my cakez argument.

not really comparable givenhe was the one attacking you

If we're right about your team and gamestate, you have to scum read us here. It's positional as is your MUSH push.

no i literally take the path of least resistance here if i'm scum and stay the fuck out of your way, not a hard concept

which, honestly, i should be doing anyway but i feel this reflexive need to defend myself when i'm seeing the stuff you're throwing my way

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I can also see a petapan scumreading Imperium situation coming where it is indeed terrible, but it's the only possible development of an earlier mistake (seeing Imperium as weak to a push due to underdeveloped early game reads and later waffling). Trying to back down after the teeth and claws are out and other scumreads are aimed his way would be effectively throwing away his slot /if/ he can't count on any useful backup. I'm gonna leave out the analysis, but I sanity checked and I don't think he can in almost any world I can see from where I'm at. In fact, only in a world where Wheme AND unwnd are simultaneously scum with petapan. Anything else wouldn't work, though I think I see unwnd giving it the good old college try there -- I'll see how that plays out before I use it to revisit my unwnd read.

Sidebar: I'm going to be furious if Imperium has the goddamn solve. Who does that, just comes in weak early game then left field BAM here's your scumteam, smell ya later. /Rude./

I am surprised by Norfolk bringing up Duchess trying to pocket, which is a thing I missed (I'm blind to pocketing happening, but I also cannot be pocketed, everything is tradeoffs) that is actually insightful. Where was this insightful Norfolk earlier? Hmmm. I'm going to make up my mind on your alignment, Norfolk. Soon.

[Imperium]

It's notable that you're trying to act like getting into an argument with me here is objectively terrible for you scum, which is debatable, but don't consider the same with regards to my cakez argument.

not really comparable givenhe was the one attacking you

If we're right about your team and gamestate, you have to scum read us here. It's positional as is your MUSH push.

no i literally take the path of least resistance here if i'm scum and stay the fuck out of your way, not a hard concept

which, honestly, i should be doing anyway but i feel this reflexive need to defend myself when i'm seeing the stuff you're throwing my way

The attack was mine to begin with. I questioned him and attacked him for his Norfolk push which he thought was sharing, and then he misreppedthe hell out of me which spurred the fight.

I get it. Your agenda this game needs you to have cakez on your side, I think if you were town your approach and understanding would be very different.

[Imperium]

Oh peta I forgot - your point about Notty not shooting me day one is somewhat fair. I think a few months ago I agree with you, but after tenet and college basketball, I’m not so sure. I think a notty who let Bork and ffery get past him in college and watched Cabd get past ffery in tenet is probably more ready to shoot friends at the slightest hint of paranoia. And that’s discounting that Brian did exist in the game, and I would not put it past Brian to shoot me if he thinks I’m scum.

[ScrewTheTells]

SirCakez, I just noticed you keep saying you like other people's scum-lists. #1:

Other then Mush I like your stack a lot STT

The stack referred to here is:

Town to scum:

petapan
SirCakez
Dunnstral
unwnd
WhemeStar
Duchess
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Norfolk Boy1
Not_Mafia

#2:

[...snipped...]Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)[...]

This is such a lazy scum team and makes me think you are scum

Not really I actually think he's pretty close

#3:

This is Nacho head. Pretty confident that the scumteam is Norfolk-Not_Mafia-Whemestar-petapan-Duchess with Dunn as a possible but not really likely sub for Duchess.[...]

Hmm we have many SRs in common...

The only names those 3 lists all have in common are Norfolk and Duchess. (I'm assuming you put the cut off point at 5 scum in my stack, which is fair). I just feel like it's weird if you think that needs pointing out; everyone and their grandmas are all scum-reading them.

[Imperium]

I can also see a petapan scumreading Imperium situation coming where it is indeed terrible, but it's the only possible development of an earlier mistake (seeing Imperium as weak to a push due to underdeveloped early game reads and later waffling). Trying to back down after the teeth and claws are out and other scumreads are aimed his way would be effectively throwing away his slot /if/ he can't count on any useful backup. I'm gonna leave out the analysis, but I sanity checked and I don't think he can in almost any world I can see from where I'm at. In fact, only in a world where Wheme AND unwnd are simultaneously scum with petapan. Anything else wouldn't work, though I think I see unwnd giving it the good old college try there -- I'll see how that plays out before I use it to revisit my unwnd read.

Sidebar: I'm going to be furious if Imperium has the goddamn solve. Who does that, just comes in weak early game then left field BAM here's your scumteam, smell ya later. /Rude./

I am surprised by Norfolk bringing up Duchess trying to pocket, which is a thing I missed (I'm blind to pocketing happening, but I also cannot be pocketed, everything is tradeoffs) that is actually insightful. Where was this insightful Norfolk earlier? Hmmm. I'm going to make up my mind on your alignment, Norfolk. Soon.

Lol I’m not totally convinced we have a correct solve, but we are both pretty slow players. Except in super fast paced games or short deadlines - then you’ve gotta just hipsolve cuz you don’t have much time to think. But there was a whole stretch of time where I died night three like clockwork. Days one and two I looked town enough but floated around and didn’t really have reads so I was no danger then day three I’d get my shit together and put the pieces together and eat my shot. Then there are the games where my reads are absolute shit lol.

[SirCakez]

SirCakez, I just noticed you keep saying you like other people's scum-lists. #1:

Other then Mush I like your stack a lot STT

The stack referred to here is:

Town to scum:

petapan
SirCakez
Dunnstral
unwnd
WhemeStar
Duchess
Imperium
MUSHSHAGANA
Norfolk Boy1
Not_Mafia

#2:

[...snipped...]Duchess Dunnstral Whemestar Norfolk (VACANT)[...]

This is such a lazy scum team and makes me think you are scum

Not really I actually think he's pretty close

#3:

This is Nacho head. Pretty confident that the scumteam is Norfolk-Not_Mafia-Whemestar-petapan-Duchess with Dunn as a possible but not really likely sub for Duchess.[...]

Hmm we have many SRs in common...

The only names those 3 lists all have in common are Norfolk and Duchess. (I'm assuming you put the cut off point at 5 scum in my stack, which is fair). I just feel like it's weird if you think that needs pointing out; everyone and their grandmas are all scum-reading them.

I also have Imp NM and Wheme low

[ScrewTheTells]

For Lotus:

Surprise I'm going to shoot Duchess

I'd prefer Not_mafia or Norfolk first, but this is in the range of acceptable for me. I'm just not as sure on Duchess's scumtells as you or a bunch of other people are. I think there's greater chance of misfire from being on the wrong side of WIFOM there, compared to the other options. But hey, I'm not one to micromanage, and I can trust you since you're confirmed so I'm not bothered if this is just difference in opinion.

And, the fact that everyone was heavy handed on Norfolk and saying virtually nothing about NM is a sign that he is mafia too.

To clarify, you also think both Norfolk and Not_mafia are scum, right?

I also don't see why town-Norfolk would shoot worse than town-Duchess, so the fear of town-Norfolk shooting wrong being a larger risk seems like wrong logic to me. I think they're both relatively worse at scum hunting than some of the other players here (no offense). If they're town we just have to do our best to convince them to shoot right in elo and I think both town-Norfolk and town-Duchess have exhibited personalities that would be open to that. Not that this line of thinking matters too much anyway because I think it's more likely they're scum. Let's not get hung up on risks that are relatively small and might not even happen.

I am also seeing the unwnd angle.....but this is even more unsure for me at the moment than a Duchess shot. I need to think more about this line, but for now I would not recommend it. It's getting a little too far away from my list of scum and I think it might end up being a repeat of Netflix's shot on you. I really really don't like overthinking it, and we're running that risk if we're considering these last minute arguments likely pushed by desperate scum.

Also is it a good time to reveal what you meant by scum trying to push you into shooting a town who would then shoot the GF? Who was that? I wanna make sure I'm not missing what you're seeing here.

[RLotus]

To clarify, you also think both Norfolk and Not_mafia are scum, right?

Not Mafia yes, Norfolk I don't really have a strong read on, but I think is a somewhat likely partner to Duchess.

Also is it a good time to reveal what you meant by scum trying to push you into shooting a town who would then shoot the GF? Who was that? I wanna make sure I'm not missing what you're seeing here.

My thought at the time is that lots of people were swaying me into shooting Duchess who would then shoot SirCakez who I believed to be the gf based on his antagonistic play. Also, unwnd wanting to shoot WhemeStar who wanted to shoot SirCakez.

I've realized that scum are more likely just bussing Duchess.

[Not_Mafia]

STT's reads are dreadful