Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[Imperium]

Tammycho are you still gonna drop a readslist eventually?

Peta would you be willing to do the same? Even if you want to tl;dr their wall, I'd like to see your thoughts on everyone (doesn't have to be detailed)

This is such a weird question. I think the eventually bugs me because it ignore that Nacho gave our solve though we're still considering that, and last night Nacho asked for one more day because he worked super late and had to be back first thing in the morning and I literally just said that I hoped he would be home on time so we could finish our thoughts.

[unwnd]

Why does it bug you? RLotus has been holstering his shot based awaiting your input in that sense. I am reading what you're saying regardless

[Imperium]

[quote="In

Don't like the cherry picking of this argument again. Again understand Dunnstral's point about it in the heat of the moment, and Peta using Dunnstral's point probably points to them being unaligned, but if you go back to the conversation before that, you will see that that was part of an actual conversation.

Unwnd had actually not long before stated he would shoot you if he had a gun.

Netflix didn't pop in and mention Lotus and then there were people egging on. There was an actual conversation that was happening. We were all talking, Lotus himself responded with "exciting". We were all supposed to say nothing in the midst of a conversation.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. I didn't cherry-pick from any argument, I found these in unwnd's ISO because it occurred to me that he was the one who had called Netflix's choice "interesting". I've since gone and looked and I don't have much else to comment on at moment besides what I did highlight, and I still don't know what you're getting at.

Unwnd said he would shoot me right before Netflix revealed they would be shooting lotus. He then immediately called the lotus shot "interesting" (non-committal, doesn't imply anything really about how he feels about the shot or about how he felt before), and justified it by relating back to his read on me. When there is a relatively isolated TvT in this kind of setup, I would expect scum to want to take advantage of that either way they can.

I thought it looked like cherry picking because of the same reason I have a problem with peta picking it up. (again understood Dunnstral in the moment saying it; think he shouldn't keep with the egging on argument though). But it's just picking up what happened with the responses after Netflix says "I'm thinking Lotus". Before that several of us were engaged in a conversation with Netflix giving our reads and thoughts on people as they were brought up. He says "I'm thinking Lotus" and we give our thoughts on that just as we were before Lotus was brought up. I don't really see how "Lotus is an interesting shot" is egging on anymore than my "have some theater concerns but need to reread" was egging on the shot. Don't think there was a real assumption that the shot was going to be made right then or that conversation wasn't going to continue. i know I thought it was. I didn't realize an actual shot was happening until he said it was after those posts were made. It could be that I'm applying that same type of good faith reasoning to unwnd's response, but being in the conversation that's how I saw it.

[WhemeStar]

When’s the hilarious nacho wall post coming

[WhemeStar]

I’m ready for duchess to get shot

[Imperium]

Why does it bug you? RLotus has been holstering his shot based awaiting your input in that sense. I am reading what you're saying regardless

It bugs me for the same reason that most of your play has bugged me as in it's been very sideline sniping approach on the one hand too much let me get on your good side on the other, and it makes you very hard to pin down and feel comfortable about alignment-wise.

I'm very well aware that Lotus has been waiting, and yesterday I gave an update on when he would get home, and then he asked for one more day and I just prior said that I hoped he would get home soon so we could give our thoughts. So obviously we're eventually giving our thoughts. I have no control over Nacho's work schedule; he works long as fuck hours and has had almost no sleep this week. He wants to get his thoughts on there, and as he said last night he understands if Lotus won't wait. As it stands our solve that we already gave is an approximation of where we're at; though we'd love to see a peta shot.

Gigantic snowstorm + additional stuff at work = 14 hour day with a 2 hour commute. I know that I'm now treading on broken promise territory so I am sorry that I unexpectedly got my ass kicked so hard.

I'd love to be given one more day to do my thing but understandable if the itchy trigger finger slips.

I need to get back to work, so I'll stop here. Hopefully Nacho gets home from work on time today so we can finish up our thoughts and get them out there. I'll let you guys know if he's gonna be working another 50 thousand hour long game.

[WhemeStar]

Tammy are you on board with nachos scum team

[ScrewTheTells]

Ok so I think this is the latest take-away of my thoughts at the moment before the day ends. I'll try to make it as brief as possible.

I'm more concerned about Cakez now, but overall I think he's still likely town. The trigger for this was when the 3 scumlists that Cakez liked only had 2 suspects in common between them, so it's kinda questionable why someone would say those 3 are all decent scum lists.

I have not been really paying attention to Dunstral, but my impression of him right now is that he's only after Norfolk which is kinda lazy imo. Again I could be wrong as I haven't actually had time to re-read him, I was busy looking at Imperium and Mush walls.

My scum read of Imperium hasn't changed much, but now they've also tied their fate with petapan's. If Petapan flips town I'm certain imperium is scum. If Imperium flips scum I think petapan is confirmed town. After failing on their wagon on Cakez and this slot, Imperium probably sees a last opportunity to win with misfire before town kills one of their scumbuddies and makes things a lot harder. The turn on to petapan is too hyped right now. They made all this noise about a smoking gun but it's funny that they delayed the big premiere. Maybe this is a psychological trick to get us more hyped than we should be. Priming us for the argument. I dunno, I can't wait to see the actual substance. Right now it's just "trust me, petapan is scum because meta". I trust meta but I don't trust Imperium, that's the problem.

Unwnd has asked some strange questions that strike me as lazy. He asked why I had Not_mafia as my top pick for scum after I just explained it in that post he referred to. So I don't think he's reading with enough effort to understand what other players are actually thinking.

I think that's all we can think of for now. It feels like everyone's just waiting around for that one post for the past day or so.

[SirCakez]

STT I thought I already said this but I was looking at bottom five for people in common and most had (Wheme, duchess, nm, imperium)

[SirCakez]

And Norfolk

[Tammy]

Tammy are you on board with nachos scum team

I agree with nacho that petapan is scum 100%.

Nacho thinks that petapan scum points to norfolk scum and notmafia scum. Part of this has to do with his belief in Peta's positional reads. But I'm not going to try to explain why on this. I understand why he thinks that way, but I have seen about as much of Nacho as this game has since Wednesday. (Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, we live together, but he's literally done nothing but sleep and work) So while I understand where he's coming from, I can't explain it in a way that will make sense.

I do agree that Peta's reads are positional and come from how he has to look at the game from a scum point of view rather than where he'd be sitting in a town point of view.

For nacho after that he has duchess and you as the fourth and fifth but both of you is where he's not as confident. A lot of this is dependent on him having a weak townread on dunnstral and moving unwnd and STT out of his previous scum slots and moving them into probable town. But those town reads aren't super confident town reads. I know that if Nacho had the gun right now, he'd shoot peta, and if we're right there he'd probably go for Norfolk and Not_Mafia then hold off and make sure the rest of his solve is solid. (though I didn't like the scum banter pop in of N_M; something about it hit wrong)

I personally find unwnd more suspicious than he does. While Nacho has duchess as a scum read, he's fine with that shot as am I - it is Lotus's shot after all - but we both really think Peta is important to take out, and he thought if he's wrong about duchess/you being scum then dunnstral is probably the town read he's wrong on and I kinda think it's unwnd. I'm not entirely convinced that Norfolk and Not-Mafia are scum together, but it's very highly likely.

I am not good in thinking in absolute teams the way he is, and his confidence is making me believe he's wrong somewhere. I don't think he's wrong on Peta. I realize I could be making a fool of myself with this peta read because lol if it's wrong when I have absolute 100% confidence he's flipping scum. Duchess is probably flipping scum just based on the feeling that she's trying to get me to suspect cakez again when I've tried to move past it but quite obviously have daggers in my heart for the cakez interaction. I feel bad if that's just honest and I'm side-eyeing her for it, but it just feels like trying to keep me focused there if that makes sense. My feeling while it was happening was that there was an effort by scum to get cakez shot to get him to shoot us for the win. I don't know how realistic that was. (Yes, cakez you said you had an epiphany but I had already stated that idea.)

I asked you to tell me why you had the solve you had, can you go into some detail on your reads?

Nacho was going to talk about all of that in detail, but he's still not home from work and said that he doesn't know when he's going to be home.

[Imperium]

Tammy are you on board with nachos scum team

I agree with nacho that petapan is scum 100%.

Nacho thinks that petapan scum points to norfolk scum and notmafia scum. Part of this has to do with his belief in Peta's positional reads. But I'm not going to try to explain why on this. I understand why he thinks that way, but I have seen about as much of Nacho as this game has since Wednesday. (Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit, we live together, but he's literally done nothing but sleep and work) So while I understand where he's coming from, I can't explain it in a way that will make sense.

I do agree that Peta's reads are positional and come from how he has to look at the game from a scum point of view rather than where he'd be sitting in a town point of view.

For nacho after that he has duchess and you as the fourth and fifth but both of you is where he's not as confident. A lot of this is dependent on him having a weak townread on dunnstral and moving unwnd and STT out of his previous scum slots and moving them into probable town. But those town reads aren't super confident town reads. I know that if Nacho had the gun right now, he'd shoot peta, and if we're right there he'd probably go for Norfolk and Not_Mafia then hold off and make sure the rest of his solve is solid. (though I didn't like the scum banter pop in of N_M; something about it hit wrong)

I personally find unwnd more suspicious than he does. While Nacho has duchess as a scum read, he's fine with that shot as am I - it is Lotus's shot after all - but we both really think Peta is important to take out, and he thought if he's wrong about duchess/you being scum then dunnstral is probably the town read he's wrong on and I kinda think it's unwnd. I'm not entirely convinced that Norfolk and Not-Mafia are scum together, but it's very highly likely.

I am not good in thinking in absolute teams the way he is, and his confidence is making me believe he's wrong somewhere. I don't think he's wrong on Peta. I realize I could be making a fool of myself with this peta read because lol if it's wrong when I have absolute 100% confidence he's flipping scum. Duchess is probably flipping scum just based on the feeling that she's trying to get me to suspect cakez again when I've tried to move past it but quite obviously have daggers in my heart for the cakez interaction. I feel bad if that's just honest and I'm side-eyeing her for it, but it just feels like trying to keep me focused there if that makes sense. My feeling while it was happening was that there was an effort by scum to get cakez shot to get him to shoot us for the win. I don't know how realistic that was. (Yes, cakez you said you had an epiphany but I had already stated that idea.)

I asked you to tell me why you had the solve you had, can you go into some detail on your reads?

Nacho was going to talk about all of that in detail, but he's still not home from work and said that he doesn't know when he's going to be home.

[unwnd]

Unwnd has asked some strange questions that strike me as lazy. He asked why I had Not_mafia as my top pick for scum after I just explained it in that post he referred to. So I don't think he's reading with enough effort to understand what other players are actually thinking.

No, no. I read it. Your reasoning presented to me just seemed perfunctory, so I asked you directly because raw interaction has it's purpose in-between walls.

[Imperium]

The turn on to petapan is too hyped right now

this is not peta's town game.

[Imperium]

If you're interested in meta, here's a few recent iso's of Peta's town games. Check out the way he gives reads, the things that give him pause, how he checks meta and does not give superficial analysis. Peta is an insightful player:

College Basketball - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Smoke-Filled - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

FGO - He's assassin in an anon game. I do not expect this posting style here, but you get a sense of how insightful of a player he is:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Tenet - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[RLotus]

My feeling while it was happening was that there was an effort by scum to get cakez shot to get him to shoot us for the win.

Yeah this is kinda what I'm thinking too and SirCakez said something similar I think. That is, if Nacho is right about his solve. Duchess, Norfolk, NM, and WhemeStar have all been pointing at SirCakez today. I assumed that is where he is getting that solve from but I see it has more to do with peta.

At first SirCakez being such a big center of focus made me think he is gf, but you guys are making a lot of sense.

[RLotus]

With unwnd, I did also think the way he is sitting back is scummy, but after reading a couple of his scum games and a couple of his town games, I think this is town play? It seems he is more reactionary and kind of point out the weird things that happen and let his opinions develop on his own. As scum, he likes to appear as if he is actively hunting scum, often chasing down his reads. I realize that he might have a different approach as scum in this setup.

I never played with unwnd before so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Imperium]

My feeling while it was happening was that there was an effort by scum to get cakez shot to get him to shoot us for the win.

Yeah this is kinda what I'm thinking too and SirCakez said something similar I think. That is, if Nacho is right about his solve. Duchess, Norfolk, NM, and WhemeStar have all been pointing at SirCakez today. I assumed that is where he is getting that solve from but I see it has more to do with peta.

At first SirCakez being such a big center of focus made me think he is gf, but you guys are making a lot of sense.

I can't remember how much, if at all, nacho agreed with me on the scum team trying to set up for a cakez shot to shoot us. I think i remember him nodding his head when I said it, so that he saw where I was going with it, but we pick up on and dwell on different things.

For norfolk we had already started to find suspicious when he popped in and thought cakez was misguided town for misrepping his earlier statement, but whoever knows on not_mafia.

For him that became the team as he moved unwnd and STT out of the scum pool, which dropped not mafia and norfolk to the bottom and then Peta's replace in posts sealed that. For him he was lightly town reading duchess and whemestar who moved down when he started doubting his unwnd and STT scum reads. I had a gut scum lean on Duchess early on.

Yeah Cakez did mention an epiphany with the same thought.

[RLotus]

My scum read of Imperium hasn't changed much, but now they've also tied their fate with petapan's. If Petapan flips town I'm certain imperium is scum. If Imperium flips scum I think petapan is confirmed town.

Why do you think they can't both be town?

[petapan]

i have never had an insightful read in my life

[Imperium]

With unwnd, I did also think the way he is sitting back is scummy, but after reading a couple of his scum games and a couple of his town games, I think this is town play? It seems he is more reactionary and kind of point out the weird things that happen and let his opinions develop on his own. As scum, he likes to appear as if he is actively hunting scum, often chasing down his reads. I realize that he might have a different approach as scum in this setup.

I never played with unwnd before so correct me if I'm wrong.

I've not played with unwnd as scum. I've played two games with him, and in each game I disagreed with some of the logic, but had him as a decently strong town read. I wish I was having an easy of a time reading him here if he's town. Nacho's done a bit of meta on him and has a townier read than i do. I do like the walls he posted for his solve.

[petapan]

but for real it actually pisses me off when people hold me to some absurd standard, e.g. PYP X/Y I/M, where i had a meltdown when someone asked me why i hadn't caught scum and wound up in a pathetic tunnel as a result: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84707

frankly in most of those games i feel my play was somewhere between mediocre and dosghit

was gonna try to throw together a readlist but not really in the mood anymore

[unwnd]

I think even if peta is scum the way you are BoP'ing him will prove less beneficial over time. I'll explain this a bit further in my next post

Sidenote for my own perceived meta though: As scum, I tend to want to lock down people into a decision and isolate townies. I sometimes use a narrative surrounding the gamestate to push bad lims. As town, I am much more wary and wanting others to meet compromise. I talked about it before and I think TENET should be an example of this thought. Divide and conquer, it works in fantastic ways. Town can't turn on your team if they can't reach agreement with themselves.

[RLotus]

but for real it actually pisses me off when people hold me to some absurd standard, e.g. PYP X/Y I/M, where i had a meltdown when someone asked me why i hadn't caught scum and wound up in a pathetic tunnel as a result: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84707

frankly in most of those games i feel my play was somewhere between mediocre and dosghit

was gonna try to throw together a readlist but not really in the mood anymore

I think Imperium is the only one scumreading you atm, you don't have to be so defeated. I'd be interested in a reads list still if you get around to it.

[unwnd]

was gonna try to throw together a readlist but not really in the mood anymore

Actually this response from peta signifies why I think BoP'ing him is a bad look. He's just going to get more defensive, and in turn even if your read is correct I'm pretty sure peta is at least halfway decent to retain spew if he's getting locked into a 1v1 with a charismatic townie.