TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[mastina]

please try to think beyond the surface a50
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 3#p9909153

Oh this seems like a good time to link to LLD scumgames.
Does this opener look familiar to you?
xofelf, for context, was a town player who, pre-LLD-opener, was fairly townread, but who is also fairly easy to eliminate. A player who is easy to be pushed as being scum. LLD singlehandedly managed to turn the townreads on the slot relatively easy to eliminate into scumreads.

And it gets better. I encourage looking at this iso, but if you don't wanna see for yourself the similarity between LLD's xofelf push and LLD's hercule push, here's a highlight:

I'M ALWAYS A MUST KILL BEFORE LYLO IN GAMES LIKE THESE. BUT AT LEAST LET ME PLAY.

YOU CAN'T DO THIS BURDEN OF PROFICIENCY SHIT BUT NEVER EVEN HAND ME A CHANCE TO PROVE MY ALIGNMENT BY LYNCHING SCUM.

But it gets even better:

seriously there is zero downside to leashing me. I asked this earlier, but if you're gonna BoP me, give me a shot to prove my fucking alignment.

This line sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it?

Here's another game, with the bonus of showing what LLD will do when the players she pushes inevitably flip town:

and I get that burden of competence is a thing, but this game has been incredibly frustrating for me because I can't apply pressure how I want to and I'm a bit restricted. So at this point I'm just trying to get people to understand why I'm town so we can make something happen.

Here's another older one.

[innocentvillager]

guys our game is longer than the mini normal

[Cephrir]

And we'll probably make another 150 pages today

[mastina]

her recent meta (last year or so)

Actually, it's approaching 3 years of that.

(the towniest post Dannflor's made the entire game)

For the record--this is literally the first post Dannflor has made all game that has made me think Dannflor could be town. It's the first post of his which doesn't have the "performative" vibe to it--or to use the wording I've used for literally five+ years at this point which anybody playing with me should've seen before (not gonna name names

*coughAlmost50cough*

), this is the first Dannflor post which could be genuinely town, rather than a post looking town without actually being town.

It's not enough to, on its own, reverse the read on Dannflor, because it COULD still be made by Dann-scum, possibly, potentially, buuuuuuuuuuuuut: it gives a TON of reasonable doubt.

Before this post, Dannflor sat at 90% scum.

Now, Dannflor sits at...well, depends on what you view percentages at. If 50% is dead-null with 49% or less being town and 51% more being scum, he's hovering around the 51.5% mark or so.
If 0% is dead null, he's hovering at about 5% scum.

Not sure how to contextualize this, but basically: I feel like this post

could

come from Dannflor as scum, that one post like this is not entirely out of Dannflor's scum range, and if it is just this one post to make me feel this way and none of his other posts, he could be scum...

... Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, if this is just the first post from Dannflor which feels genuinely town. If this is the first of multiple posts from Dann that don't just 'look' town but

feel

town. One post which feels entirely town could be scum (albeit less likely), but multiple cannot.

So Dannflor moves up to null, pending further posts from him, pending further content. (Which I conveniently have ~10 pages' worth of. If I see so much as a single other post that feels town rather than just looking town? He'll move to town.)

[innocentvillager]

the 90% makes so much more sense now

for me the percentages have always meant probability of flipping mafia. Base for me is 4/17 about 23.5% (not 50% like you just said) so I was baffled when you said 90% and I offered to snap yeet LLD and dannflor

[innocentvillager]

i don’t know about you guys but I have literally never seen the word performative in my life before this game and now everyone is using including my teammates and it’s driving me crazy

[Cephrir]

Just say you liked the post it doesnt take 500 fucking words

Shit, I forgot to not read this drivel

[innocentvillager]

Lol I gotcha but at least it makes her easy to read? if she just says she likes the post I can’t divine alignment from that as easily

[DrippingGoofball]

Few things would make me happier tomorrow morning than two more LLD votes before I go shovel the snow.

[innocentvillager]

dgb how do you feel that your worldview is me/LLD and I am voting her rn? and if I’m so scummy why haven’t you tried to push me more; a lot of people townread me, doesn’t that concern you?

[DrippingGoofball]

dgb how do you feel that your worldview is me/LLD and I am voting her rn? and if I’m so scummy why haven’t you tried to push me more; a lot of people townread me, doesn’t that concern you?

Yes, that's why I'm not putting it at the forefront of my mind.

[mastina]

I think mastina has a broader scum/town range of playstyles

Oh theoretically, fuck yes. Theoretically, nothing is outside of my scumrange. Theoretically, you remember what LLD described her scumplay as? I do the same thing. I never repeat plays; I always make each scumgame of mine unique; I always fulfill a different role; I am always changing it; I have pulled such stunts before that literally anything I do, could be done as scumastina. Theoretically. Relying on peak-mastina performance, or rather peak-scumastina performance. Theoretically, I've done just about literally every possible thing scum can do so I can do it again. (Heck, even my holy "I never lie about my role as scum"? There is ONE game, a mini, don't remember if it was theme or Normal, where I fakeclaimed. I can name the mod of the game, too, and that lie about my role is proof that not lying about my role isn't a trust tell. I

can

lie about my role, I just always think that doing so would be a tactical error.)

Theoretically, there is an infinite range to my scumplay styles, where anything I do is theoretically within my capacity as scumastina.

Buuuuuuuuut, pragmatically: in the last three years, I've had

one

game where I wasn't a lackluster scum player, and even in that one game which wasn't lackluster, I (1) mostly talked mechanics (easy to do), (2) had possible-3ps to help 'fake' scumhunt making it a pseudo-multiball that's not a real scumgame, (3) had an AGar-to-Cephriresque easy launchpoint of Dunnstral being ridiculously and abnormally scummy, and (4) even given all of these, was still pretty painfully obviously scum.

So, yes. Theoretically, this game could be the return of scumastina to her prime, where I'm at the top of my scumgame pulling a performance of peak scumastina caliber where I'm one of the best scum players on site. Hey, it's team mafia, if ever there was a time to be at top scum form, it'd be during this event! So there's motive to do so, so it's always possible.

I genuinely don't think it's actually probable for me to pull off tho. I'm not even sure that, even with it being team mafia, I'd be able to perform well as scum. So I'm not even sure it's plausible, yet alone probable. It's definitely possible for me to return to that level, but given my general approach to mafia games these days I'm genuinely not sure I could in actuality pull it off. Would need to actually be scum to let you know.

also i kinda just want to see more of this herc lld thing and honestly, im a bit lazy and LLD is a great opportunity to let someone take the reigns and for me to get out the way. do you guys really want to see me post storm this game. or do you want to see me ascend above all mortals.

If Dannflor does indeed move out of scum, then fuckit, peer pressure aside Oka's presence here does indeed feel like it'd be a fine replacement.

I get that Oka may not be able to win TM.
I get that Oka may not want to have an identical game to last one.
I get that Oka may want to just vibe and chill.

But the more Oka strays from being a presence in the game, the more he starts to look like scum.

(With Dann maybe out of scum, does feel like I need a new readslist, but I wanna read more posts to see if there is a definitively-town post from Dann tho.)

[OkaPoka]

beg for forgiveness D:

in all seriousness, mastina i feel like you are trying to make me move to LLD, you know im on the fence now is this really how ur going to try and herd me over, by making me return to monke

[OkaPoka]

to go above my presence now basically amounts to you wanting me to try and displace LLD as the game warper, inevitably that's going to lead us both to clash real hard because unless we sync up on how we play, and i doubt we will you've just come out of a game where i essentially tag teamed all my pushes and LLD is not exactly the cooperative type, and im going to be forced to essentially park LLD and play you know, politics and i mean the deck is stacked for me

but uhhh yeah what if i didnt

if ur going to scumread me that's okay but making this about presence really feels like you want me to clash LLD and end up voting her

[mastina]

also mastina, why is oka locktown? he has a solid scum game and i dont feel that what he's put down so far is anything he's not capable of doing as scum.

If Oka is town I'm gonna fucking hate myself for forgetting why I had him as locktown, but I am asking myself the same question; why

did

I have him as locktown? The fact that I'm struggling to answer that, when Oka's posting is far more lackluster this game and lacks the fire of last game, is enough when combined with peer pressure to move him allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way down to maybe-scum.

mastina enjoys typing, and i feel you should have enough experience with her to know this!

For the record, RE: Titus.
I normally give Titus a free pass on D1; I normally give Titus the benefit of the doubt on D1; I normally give her time, even in the events I am scumreading her; I normally am happy to work with her even if I am scumreading her, assuming she is cooperative and not arguing in bad faith and/or shading me and/or portraying my posts in a negative light.

This game, however, has the issue of be not being able to give that--I give Titus a pass on D1 by using what amounts to a variant of jjh's style, of "catching the easiest scum" on D1. With Titus not being the easiest scum in most games, that gives me the luxury of giving her space. But as I've already said, the jjh mold of "catch the easiest scum" doesn't work if there's no easy scum to catch, if every scum is a skilled scum player, which I suspect to be the case this game.

With no easy scum to catch, I cannot afford to be as lenient with Titus. And I scumread her. And on top of that, her first engagement with me wasn't a reachout; her first engagement with me looked like it was bad faith or shade or negative light. With her first interaction with me being in bad light, and me scumreading her, and with no easy scum to catch, all of that is why I'm not giving Titus the free pass I otherwise would, because, yes, I do think there's a fairly high chance that Titus is scum here.

[mastina]

I do think there's a fairly high chance that Titus is scum here.

(For those keeping track, that's 90% scum on LLD, ~80% scum on Titus, and a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge drop to ~60% scum on the worst, with Oka being unsure but overall probably weaker scumread than even worstie but of a comparable strength, e.g. ~55%.)

[mastina]

Noise noise noise noise noise. Happy with where my vote is parked.

It's moments like this where I remember what Ythan's alignment was last time he was posting this sort of thing and sigh in resignation that he's probably still town this time around in spite of all the reasons to think otherwise.

an open question from auro, @whoever is townreading dunn: what do you tr about him?

Basically, Dunnstral is at his normal activity levels: posts almost every single day, ~2-5 times each time he posts, and when he posts he gives good thoughts. While he has a scumread on your slot that I disagree with and think is wrong, I follow with his thought process for why he would think that you're scum, and because I can see where he is coming from even though I disagree with the read, I think he's town.

His content is town, his posts are reasonable even if I disagree with them; it's standard Dunnstral fare to me.

yeah mastina correctly pushed LLD D1 in one game played together

I've played in about 10 LLD games before, not just one. Games I've read with LLD in them nearly doubles that. Probably like, ~8 games played, ~8 games where I was reading, for ~16ish LLD games.

It was however the strong deja vu which was a selling point for LLD being scum here. There are things LLD has a tendency to do as scum that show up less or not at all when she is scum, and while the difference between her towngame and scumgame is like 1-5%, I feel like I DO have a decent grasp on the signs OF that 1-5% here.

[mastina]

hercule
Hopkirk
innocentvillager

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm*
Almost50
Dunnstral
Winter Flakes (alt of Uncrowned)
jjh927

Cephrir
Ythan
AGar



OkaPoka



the worst

Titus

Lady Lambdadelta


(Dannflor absent intentionally--need to see more Dann posts)

Locktown, strongly townreading, weakly townreading, read in flux, weakly scumreading, fairly strongly scumreading, VERY strongly scumreading.

Approximately.

*Xtoxm would be in locktown if not for healthy paranoia from last game. I was wrong then and I am very aware I could be wrong here, even though I feel Xtoxm this game is much townier even on his own merits and that given Auro his towniness is through the roof.

[OkaPoka]

differ ways of catching up i know but respond to me mastina D:

is this a political play, are you trying to herd me onto LLD

[mastina]

What is the

case

on LLD?

Here ya go.

Read the entirety of that link and you get the gist of the LLD case.

[Cephrir]

thank goodness i now know in excruciating detail exactly how certain you are about those scumreads, that is adding a lot of value to my life

[Cephrir]

i wonder if i can get myself into the scumpool by continuing to make these posts

let's call it an experiment

[mastina]

Mastina, you're a literally anchor on any game you play

Sure am, but I'm surprised you used a term that from our generation was used as one of the highest of compliments to a town player to describe me.

(For those who don't have the mafiascum history: the term 'anchor' was a synonym for 'rock', as in, someone who would weigh down the town in reality, of keeping people grounded, of being the voice of reason keeping people in reality, to keep them from going too far wildly off-base, from drifting off into the ocean of moonlogic/paranoia and stabilizing the town. As scum it was common to kill the town glue, the town rocks, the town's anchors, so that they'd eat themselves up in paranoia with nobody to reign them in.)

[OkaPoka]

judging by this catchup style... ill have to wait

hi ceph whats up

[Cephrir]

we're trolling now boys

it's the right way to celebrate the fact that this thread will be as long as war and peace before we manage to yeet anyone