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Post Post #1325 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:57 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 1323, OkaPoka wrote:judging by this catchup style... ill have to wait

hi ceph whats up
no, i daresay it'll be quite some time, and you'll most likely have forgotten the question by the time your answer arrives

hello! i'm making another attempt to summon hastur. also, i am watching tv with the boy and we just did a meditation exercise. soon i will go to bed :0
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Post Post #1326 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:58 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

by your experience

does mastina dilly dally with political plays or am i veering off into insanity
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Post Post #1327 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:00 pm

Post by Cephrir »

strangers passing on ships in the night would be a good way to describe mastina and myself. oil and water. in my experience she is the foremost expert on site in taking the maximum possible number of words to convey a simple idea, and it frustrates me because i perceive the expectation that i will read them as a disrespect for my time.

what do you mean by political plays?
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Post Post #1328 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:02 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

the way i'd describe a political play is the willing to compromise on your reads to get an ultimate agenda done

eg: pressuring someone into voting with you, being willing to set aside a scumread to try and convince someone to vote with you, doing stuff that isn't totally pure to get what you really want
faking reads falls into this too ig
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Post Post #1329 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:03 pm

Post by Cephrir »

to you it seems like she's compromising on her reads? all i see is "LLD must die." I guess I don't get the impression she cares how it happens.
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Post Post #1330 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:05 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

hole goal of mastina seems to be getting LLD, do you think mastina is the type of player to do political things to get LLD deded? if so - is it AI? i feel like she might be doing something political to me but talking about stuff like this tends to be a lil more tinfoily
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Post Post #1331 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:08 pm

Post by Cephrir »

love the paranoia ur giving off tbh.

I guess the question is whether she's trying to like, let you buy a townread with an LLD vote. It's hard to tell if that's really happening (unless I missed something) because her posts are so detached from the now that there's no real time interaction. I guess I would be surprised if she was, as town, doing something like you describe in order to get LLD dead, but I'm not sure I see that as having happened so far. i am, admittedly, skimming her posts.
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Post Post #1332 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:09 pm

Post by Cephrir »

you would be fun to keep dancing with but i have to go to bed

might phonepost might not
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Post Post #1333 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:09 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

in mastina's post she basically says she's marking me as a scumread now because im not presencing which i mean is fair i haven't been posting like last game

its just contextually and timing wise ~ i am suspicious. this is probably the best time to strike LLD and I feel like mastina is trying to get me into posting more and doing my thing and maybe displacing what LLD wants to do, and end up voting LLD

it feels very political and something I would do, im trying to parse if it actually is political and whether that actually means anything AI for her agh mastina please just respond to me ceph doesn't even read your posts
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Post Post #1334 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:11 pm

Post by Winter Flakes »

ceph/dann

what's the case on hopkirk
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Post Post #1335 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:11 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

In post 1331, Cephrir wrote:love the paranoia ur giving off tbh.

I guess the question is whether she's trying to like, let you
buy a townread with an LLD vote.
It's hard to tell if that's really happening (unless I missed something) because her posts are so detached from the now that there's no real time interaction. I guess I would be surprised if she was, as town, doing something like you describe in order to get LLD dead, but I'm not sure I see that as having happened so far. i am, admittedly, skimming her posts.
the bolded part yeah i feel like she might be offering that? i know dgb is basically trying to offer that but dgb was a lil innocuous puppeteer last game as town so its probably not that AI. mastina come talk to me please
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Post Post #1336 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:12 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1257, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:MASTINA HE HAS 3 COACHES AND 3 SCUM BUDDIES WHO ALL KNOW ABOUT LAST GAME TOO. THAT META IS ABUSEABLE.
I've heard this argument before.

"FL is a master scum player, he can coach his scumteam to subvert their meta, therefore, towntells on players are all invalid because they could've been coached by FL to mimic their townplay, so meta is invalid and therefore the reasons to townread the player are also invalid".

Suffice to say: it doesn't hold. It is, explicitly, an appeal to paranoia.

Literally every player this game, if they were scum, has the collective pool of resources of 16 total players who could, collectively, subvert typical scumplay and recreate their townplay as scum.

Your argument here is essentially, "hercule, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, is scum who managed to play in a way which looks town".

But using that same logic:
Why can't innocentvillager, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't I, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from myself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Hopkirk, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Xtoxm, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Dannflor, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Winter Flakes, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't DGB, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from itself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Cephrir, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?
Why can't Almost50, with the collective pool of 15 players aside from himself, be scum who managed to play in a way which looks town?

The simple fact of the matter is: sure, yes, that's
possible
.
It is explicitly improbable. It is explicitly an argument appealing to improbability, to throw out all past towntells, to throw out all past games, to throw out every reason you've ever had to townread a player in the game, off of the chance that they MIGHT be scum who managed to convincingly subvert their play to manage to look town when they aren't.

Meta can be abused to
some
extent, yes. You can manage to play in a different style than your previous scumgame even if your scumgame is literally back to back. But you cannot have a complete and total reversal of it on literally every level--and that's what it'd take for hercule to be scum in this game.

It's possible with the collective pool of scum players to shift play to cover past tells that would expose you, in theory.
But it requires, 1: the collective pool of 15 to put that effort in (hey, newsflash: in team mafia, the players who help their teammates' scumgames are the exception to the general rule of teammates not helping out at all; most teams don't really fully use their TEAM aspect), when they are incredibly unlikely to focus on it to such an extent, 2: for them to have, in practice, succeeded in covering up literally every previous weakness to completely and totally cover every aspect, and 3: after having come up with that, for hercule to perfectly execute on this hypothetical plan.

Let's occam's razor this shit.

Which is simpler?

hercule is town, whose difference from last game is due to hercule being town this game...

...Or that hercule is scum, whose collective group of 16 brainstormed how to make hercule not look like scum this game, who after having put this brainstorming in actually succeeded in covering every weakness even ones that weren't discussed publicly (e.g. covering things I never explained), and that hercule as scum then after this planning managed to actually perfectly execute on this plan to cover every past meta-tell that lead to him being scumread?

I think it's painfully obviously the former, that hercule is just town whose differences between this game and last game are due to being town.
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Post Post #1337 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:13 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

In post 1334, Winter Flakes wrote:ceph/dann

what's the case on hopkirk
satellite view of the case is hopkirk is inciting bad vibes in the thread and trying to start some shit
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Post Post #1338 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:15 pm

Post by Cephrir »

In post 1333, OkaPoka wrote:in mastina's post she basically says she's marking me as a scumread now because im not presencing which i mean is fair i haven't been posting like last game

its just contextually and timing wise ~ i am suspicious. this is probably the best time to strike LLD and I feel like mastina is trying to get me into posting more and doing my thing and maybe displacing what LLD wants to do, and end up voting LLD

it feels very political and something I would do, im trying to parse if it actually is political and whether that actually means anything AI for her agh mastina please just respond to me ceph doesn't even read your posts
Know about that first part yeah. It is true that your presence has been muted but I'm seeing town in it now for one. And you're coming back.

I guess I dont think there's necessarily a causal connection between you posting more -> you voting LLD? I could see it as a method of distracting from the hercule wagon more easily since the probability of you doing that if your scumreads are random is higher.

I personally dont play that kind of 5d chess. I could imagine it from her though, I think she at least thinks of herself as a calculating planner type of scum player? So sorry if this stack of waffles doesnt help haha
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Post Post #1339 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:19 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

picture i see and why along with me not wanting to put as much effort into the game is that this thread really cannot fit both me and LLD's playstyles. we will clash if we both are trying to force our ways - unless we can sync up our targets. will LLD probably beat my ass? according to pooky and mathblade the answer is yes ill get bent and cry, but that's neither here nor there.

which is why im suspicious of mastina's choice to call out my presence, yes its the obvious thing, but its also like a powder keg. if i start trying to force a townbloc and ram a poe and it doesn't align with LLD, we will inevitably fight and i will probably end up convincing myself to side with mastina. of course mastina can put my mind to rest if she ever chooses to talk to meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Post Post #1340 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:20 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1278, OkaPoka wrote:mastina makes good points to be honest, but also mastina always makes convincing points when she isn't talking about you
I do indeed always make good points!

I'll be the first to admit that making a good point doesn't mean that the point is
accurate
; I can and do make good points that, while good points, end up being wrong. That's why I always enjoy engaging with others--since I always raise good points, other people can give me a better gauge for "this is a good point, but I think in spite of being a good point, it is wrong" vs "this is a good point, and I think it is right".
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Post Post #1341 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:21 pm

Post by implosion »

8A disphenoid crystal is bounded by eight scalene triangles arranged in pairs. A ditetragonal prism in the tetragonal crystal system has eight similar faces whose alternate interfacial angles only are equal.


Vote Count 1.8
Lady Lambdadelta
(6): DrippingGoofball, hercule, Hopkirk, innocentvillager, Xtoxm, mastina
hercule
(5): Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst, Dunnstral
Hopkirk
(3): Almost50, Cephrir, Dannflor
the worst
(2): jjh927, Winter Flakes
innocentvillager
(1): Titus

Not Voting
(1): AGar

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to eliminate. Deadline is set for 11:00 AM PST on February 12, in (expired on 2021-02-12 15:00:00).
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Post Post #1342 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:28 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1280, innocentvillager wrote:I don’t get why Hercule couldn’t have been coached on reacting to pressure differently
Oh, he could have--
But what are the chances that this coaching is SO thorough, SO accurate, that it covers EVERY base, including points that people didn't express before, and that even with these pointers from the coach, hercule executed on the coaching perfectly?

Speaking from experience as a person who has coached scumbuddies: I have coached scumbuddies who tried to execute on my coaching, but couldn't do so perfectly. They didn't follow my advice perfectly, they developed flaws, and even with my coaching I couldn't pinpoint every reason for them to be scumread so even if they had followed it perfectly (which they couldn't do), they might still have been scumread due to me having missed something they'd be scumread for.

There's a difference between a player not playing literally identical between two games (this is something any scum player can do), and a player playing in such a stark contrast that it goes beyond the realm of "different game, different standard" (this is something almost no player can do; it takes a Don Corelone level player to have so much of a
chance
of pulling it off, and even Don Corelone players when attempting to do so can and often do fail to actually execute on it).
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Post Post #1343 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:31 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

the catchup is taking too long and she obviously can see my posts

good night maybe ill read up tomorrow
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Post Post #1344 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:33 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1282, OkaPoka wrote:now i don't know if i buy the coaching argument because from what koba has told me, hercule has an established scum meta on epicmafia and he is pretty good at it bleh, spf and super are both more known for town play i think as well so the only possible person who would actually be coaching him would probs be joqiza and koba did not inform me on joqiza /shrug
Okay so like.
If you don't think he could be coached to be this different from his towngame/scumgame.

...Why are you voting him?

There is a marked difference, a severe, total, basically almost complete, as I put it, "night and day", difference between hercule's play last game and hercule's play this game.
hercule was scum last game.
You are saying you don't buy that he'd be coached into being a severe, total, basically almost complete, as I put it, "night and day", difference between last game and this game.

Yet there is such a difference.
And you believe he wasn't coached into it.

So I repeat.

WHY are you voting hercule, when you don't believe he was coached to be different, when there IS such strong marked notable differences between last game and this game?
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Post Post #1345 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:42 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1307, innocentvillager wrote:Lol I gotcha but at least it makes her easy to read? if she just says she likes the post I can’t divine alignment from that as easily
Transparency + Clarity + Depth > Succinctness, yes.

While it's difficult for me, I
can
be concise. I deliberately choose not to. I'm naturally wordy, but that wordiness is an asset (thus my deliberate choice to gravitate towards it), not a hindrance (which if it were one, I could then put the deliberate effort into suppressing it).

But I digress.
In post 1312, OkaPoka wrote:in all seriousness, mastina i feel like you are trying to make me move to LLD, you know im on the fence now is this really how ur going to try and herd me over, by making me return to monke
I have no such pull. If you're scum, then you're scum. If you're town, then your continued vote on hercule is either laziness, denial of reality, or both lazy and denying reality.

You've done just as good a job as I have for giving the proof for why hercule's town this game; you're still voting him. So the options are literally among those three: laziness, denying reality, or scum. (The three are in no way mutually exclusive and can in fact exist in any combination of the 2-3.)
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Post Post #1346 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:49 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1313, OkaPoka wrote:if ur going to scumread me that's okay but making this about presence really feels like you want me to clash LLD and end up voting her
I'm not asking you "why aren't you voting LLD?". There are plenty of players who I am townreading who have said they townread LLD. I've been rather loud about disagreeing with them on that townread and I wish they were voting LLD, but them not voting LLD is not something which makes them suspect.

I am however asking you "why are you voting hercule?". The number of players who are voting hercule who I townread is rather notably smaller, for good reason. There are still players who I townread who're voting hercule for poor reasoning, and I have talked to them and addressed their reasoning, pointing out the flaws in it, and continue to ask them that question.

My read on you is entirely separate of this, however--you, notably, have a much weaker presence this game.
You are also, notably, while in a good position to have a good read on hercule...still voting him in spite of lacking it.
But it is mostly that vibe-wise, aura-wise, you just don't radiate town the same way you did last game. You don't feel town and I can't really describe why you would be town. I can however see why you would be scum. But you're notably not a scumread; you're an in-flux read because I did have that strong townread on you and a lot of the read on you is peer pressure from others scumreading you and me not being able to remember why I was townreading you.

In short: you're not doing anything town right now, and there's things you're doing that could very well be scum.
Not voting LLD isn't among them.
Continuing to vote hercule might be among them, but even lacking that, the things which could be scum are still there.
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Post Post #1347 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:53 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

ice d this conversation

i lie everytime

UNVOTE:

so this is all is it? you full well know why im voting hercule, sure he hasn't scumtold but he hasn't towntold and I'm seeing if maybe more pressure could get him to towntell. its not that hard to parse what im saying about the fence.

ill unvote for you if thats what makes you happy but like /shrug coolio whats the next thing you want me to do now mastina :)
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Post Post #1348 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:53 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1328, OkaPoka wrote:the way i'd describe a political play is the willing to compromise on your reads to get an ultimate agenda done
eg: pressuring someone into voting with you, being willing to set aside a scumread to try and convince someone to vote with you, doing stuff that isn't totally pure to get what you really want
faking reads falls into this too ig
In my 12 years onsite, this is something I have never done, and the players who have this style (RC, FL) are exactly my role models on "what NEVER to do as town".

No offense meant to them--it works for
them
well enough.

But it is very much something that is the antithesis of my values as a mafia player--so I would never do it as town. And for that matter, never do it as scum.
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Post Post #1349 (ISO) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:57 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

we both full well know that unvoting hercule means im going to find a wagon to hop on next mastina, we both know that

if i can't fish for a hercules tell then what should i do next hmmm should i vote iv whom i explicitly townread or should i vote ducky who isn't here or should i vote hopkirk whom i also explicitly townread hmm who else can there be what other choice is left hmm
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