TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[mastina]

whats the next thing you want me to do now mastina

Be town.

[OkaPoka]

skate through mastina cmon admit it

its political - my vote on hercule on a dissipating wagon isn't going to lead to his death, if you are going to call it out obviously you want it somewhere else, cmon admit it i just want to be right and then i can figure out if its ai

[Cephrir]

The hercule wagon is dissipating anyway because LLD is visibly wavering. I wouldn't spend too much energy being worked up about that.

[mastina]

my vote on hercule on a dissipating wagon isn't going to lead to his death, if you are going to call it out obviously you want it somewhere else

As a matter of fact, yes, I do--I want it placed in a place that will give me a better read on not only the person you vote, but also you. That'd give me a better ability to sort you off of why you're voting them and sort them if your reason for voting them is an actual reason.

I mean obviously, you can't go wrong voting LLD, but any vote from you which isn't hercule is a vote which can help me sort you and which, if it is a real vote for real reasons, can help me sort who you vote.

I very much wouldn't call that in any way a, as you put it, "political" stance--it's just a stupidly self-evident thing. If you're not doing something which helps me read you, I'm not going to get a read on you. (And the best thing which helps me get a read: scumhunting.) And if you don't give a read on another player, it's not going to help me read that player. And the two build off of each other, too.

[Ythan]

I'll bite.

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

[OkaPoka]

is correct @ceph so trying to get my vote off of hercule now rather than before LLD decides on a new target is... also interesting

still don't know if its scummy lmao i just want to be right

i mean mastina if this is about scumhunting i listed out why for scumhunting purposes i was voting hercule, im haven't exactly been mysterious about the fact that i feel pressure on hercule is how i think i can get a crack one way or the other. and even though his reactions sure have been townie, i don't think its enough to make a firm decision. this is not something ive been keeping secret lol

[jjh927]

There is always an easiest scum regardless of the quality of scumplay in a game

[mastina]

i feel pressure on hercule is how i think i can get a crack one way or the other. and even though his reactions sure have been townie, i don't think its enough to make a firm decision. this is not something ive been keeping secret lol

I actually think this is a bit backwards--hercule has been under plenty of pressure and looks town from it.

Upping the pressure or keeping it the same isn't going to change that; it's going to keep it the same. Looks townie, but according to you, not good enough.

Removing the pressure is actually what I feel would help the most there--by removing the pressure, you get to see what hercule does with no pressure. And that's something which is different from the current status quo, so gives you a better ability to read him when under no pressure.

Basically:
We've seen what he's done under pressure--continuing with him under pressure is unlikely to keep producing new information.
We haven't seen what he's done without the pressure--seeing what he does without the pressure is likely to produce new info.

[jjh927]

This being said, the strategy I have been following is to find this easiest scum nice and early, vote park them for the whole day, and wait for the elima. The point is that the easiest scum will get voted off because they aren't difficult to see and I'll have raised awareness, so I won't have to effort and nobody will NK me

I am admittedly growing more convinced this won't work so well in a large theme, especially where players are motivated to appear individually strong as in team mafia

[mastina]

The hercule wagon is dissipating anyway because LLD is visibly wavering. I wouldn't spend too much energy being worked up about that.

is correct @ceph so trying to get my vote off of hercule now rather than before LLD decides on a new target is... also interesting

Also, where are you two getting the idea LLD is "visibly wavering" in her hercule read?

I've been reading every LLD post and I saw nothing of the sort.

[OkaPoka]

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

getting this quote just for you

[jjh927]

You should read my most recent game if you have time, Mastina
It is the archetype of my philosophy

[DrippingGoofball]

we're trolling now boys

it's the right way to celebrate the fact that this thread will be as long as war and peace before we manage to yeet anyone

You can't complain about that if you're voting Hopkirk instead of LLD, but the faster you make the correct vote, the more the game pace will be to your liking. Just saying!!!!

[Dunnstral]

But you were being bussed, which is something different than a block of scum voting together on a townie

I can see herc as either town who is being pushed for not much and him having trouble in the game because he has to argue against that

OR I can see him as scum who feels caught for the wrong reasons, as pointed out by Dann and Cephrir and LLD around page 33+

I don't think their reaction is towny, at least. What I thought was towny was mostly a tone read and got town apart back to null in the next few pages, and I remember that I shifted to townreading him as the game went on last time. It seems like a fine vote to me

Thank fucking god you're town.

This is literally where I'm at right now and I'm loathe to talk much about it because the minute I stop doing the charismatic confidence bit, the hercule wagon will dissipate?

and I'm right now more certain than not he's scum... but there is a voice in the back of my head whispering bad thoughts to me, and it's talking a lot about the way the 2 wagons have progressed today, people's stances, and what makes sense for scum to do if we were both town.

Can you vibe at me wrt to that topic?

Also I want to be clear that I'm doing something I've basically never done before and being transparent with my process a bit here

Which feels really fucking vulnerable and bad, so I'm really hoping that it pays off and either cures my paranoia or refocuses me in a correct path if needed.

lol

Yeah, which wagon are you talking about, the worst or yourself?

Hercule.

Dunn if you're around I want to dismantle my own wagon I think, but I need to talk to someone who I have the remotest sense of trust in to decide whether my paranoia is legitimate or not.

It also doesn't hurt my team is in my ear about all of this too so.

These posts too mastina

[Dunnstral]

and 1248

[innocentvillager]

But what are the chances that this coaching is SO thorough, SO accurate, that it covers EVERY base, including points that people didn't express before, and that even with these pointers from the coach, hercule executed on the coaching perfectly?

mastina, I am mostly in agreement with your Occam's razor logic, but there are two things I'd like to point out that I don't vibe with yet

1) This is an unprecedented situation, where literally 16/18 people were in last game which happened back to back so literally EVERYONE is going to use that as a baseline and EVERYONE knows that other people are going to be referencing their play last game

My point is this game I think it will be way more present and looming than normal. Like this is isn't some "oh X and Y have played with me a few games ago, they might have a sense for my towngame so I'll just make a quick change from then to throw them off" situation. I don't feel nearly as threatened rolling scum in a totally different plist with maybe a few people I've played with before, vs if I rolled scum in this second iteration of a game; I would've been way more worried and done way more differently because you've ALL seen my exact recent townplay in this kind of situation with this plist and ALL 14 townies (if I was scum) are going to be comparing my play to last game compared to maybe a couple people max in a normal game. hercule is literally an unknown so this argument might apply even more to him; I'd be way more purposeful and worried if I was in hercule's shoes and rolled scum right after last game.

2) I'm not fully convinced of your "premise" that hercule has drastically transformed in so many ways, to that point that it's so improbable that he can purposely do this by himself or with a little bit of coaching

Specifically, I want to be convinced that hercule has transformed like, in multiple multiple ways (or covered "EVERY Base"), that others haven't expressed. The more you say it as if he's done a 180 in MULTIPLE ways, the more I feel that I'm probably just missing something. would you mind tl;dr'ing me/quoting me on it? For example, this is what I see from you wrt to hercule's "wildly different play" (if there's a lot more, I probably missed it because truthfully I have not completely read every single one of your walls, but thanks in advance for obliging me anyway):

hercule, last game, was frustrated and upset at me--I was right on him, and he exploded.

hercule, this game, is frustrated and upset--but the frustration is nothing like the frustration he showed when I was right on him.

If hercule were scum this game, I would expect him to show similar behavior to last game, maybe even worse. (If he were scum twice in a row, and scumread by a player twice in a row for seemingly no reason, I'd expect his blowup to be WORSE the second time, due to the sheer implausibility of getting scum twice, being widely townread twice, only to have one player scumread him and be strong about it.)

Instead, hercule's reaction to the pressure this game is night and day different--the frustration and upsetness is present the same, but what he did is entirely different.

So the difference is between:

a) Against your push, hercule last game reacted in a frustrated, upset but overall discrediting, vitriolic manner, and even tried to straight up just OMGUS you
b) Against LLD's push, hercule this game reacted in a frustrated, upset manner, but he was at least being more cooperative and actually trying to work with LLD and sort her

Like, if this is the premise that you are Occam's Razoring off of (please please correct me if I'm mistaken!), I don't know if I buy that it's unfakeable enough of a change for me; that combined with my first point on how this is an unprecedented situation makes me remain unconvinced on your hercule towncase.

[innocentvillager]

I need to go compare his posting tone from this game to last to see if I just think his post style in general reads as townie to me to see if im just biasing myself into a townlean

WF did you ever do this?

[hercule]

I chimed in with a "haven't you people ever heard of voting the goddamn scum-" no. it's much better to face these kinds of things with a sense of poise and rationality.

hello, I have taken a break from the game, I have returned, I have achieved nirvana, I have removed the ego and the id, I am viewing the game as that of a neutral observer since I think that will help me be more productive here.

now I will elucidate my thoughts on every single player at this moment of the game

Titus -

They seem okay ig. Read on LLD/Me as Town v Town doesn't seem particularly scum motivated. Surely more content will come.

innocentvillager -

GTH town, their intro was kind of jarring and different from last game but it was almost so jokey that I townread it, like just claiming scum lmao, feels like scum wouldn't be so bold. his approach to mastina felt towny as well, basically committing to sheep her most of the game which idt mafia would want the wrecking ball that is mastina to have thread control

also 350 felt like a really pure thought process and so have most of his posts regarding my slot

that being said I feel like he has spent an inordinate amount of time posting about me and not nearly as much about anyone else and I don't have a good explanation for it

mastina -

so fucking town. town angel. town savior. town leader. i'm pocketed as shit by her defense of me, but it's not just that, it's how thoughtful and insightful they approach the game. one obvious example is the way she called out dannflor with a metaread, and dannflor was like well yeah you're right, and she kept pushing on dannflor, and then comes to a realization that he has some towny thought processes, and then eases up, and the whole thing felt natural as fuck

AGar -

also GTH town. hasn't added a lot of content but I remember thinking 292 felt like genuine frustration that bubbled up after game 2 started feeling similar to game 1 for them. obvi need to see more

Hopkirk -

I see that the thread is kind of turning on Hopkirk but I don't really understand why. I actually think A50 came across as kind of towny in my re-assessment of the game and he seems to be the largest driver of it but I'm not seeing it

I guess to me Hopkirk comes across as almost identical to last game, seems to have been having fun until the recent push on him, not at all the stilted or forced tone I would expect from someone who hasn't flipped scum in ages suddenly being forced into a mafia rerand because of ABR

A50's read and push on them comes across as like "i know i'm town and yet you fos me? you must be scum" which isn't particularly convincing

Xtoxm -

Last day or two xtoxm has shot up my town list. imagine xtoxm giving this kind of content last game LOL. i don't even care that it's mostly Auro, if xtoxm flipped scum him and his team were basically like: k, THIS time, we are super tryharding. which maybe but... i doubt it. also "the people on the hercule wagon should feel terrible, he is crystalline town. i am very puzzled at the wagon on hercule" please of course I love this slot.

Dannflor -

I want to say they're towny just because they express thoughts that sound genuine, like when I am engaging with them I feel like I'm talking to town who just has an incorrect read rather than someone trying to push me through on bad faith. If they are scum then I would be pretty impressed with their ability to generate genuine-sounding reads on the fly. my main takeaway from their read on me was that they lacked context into my brain, not that they were spewing whatever they can to tighten the noose around my neck.

the worst -

Not loving the "sheep oka onto hercule and tab out for 3 days" look but nothing really else to go on.

Winter Flakes -

town pretty sure. love their approach to my slot to be honest. looks careful and considered. also his read on the worst. i'm a sucker for reads developing over time with the logic for it expressed in the thread. maybe this is the obvtowning i was told about

Lady Lambdadelta -

so. obviously I hate their push on me. AND I felt like their waffling / recalcitrance on me felt more performative than an actual attempt to dismantle their own wagon on me. but I will say that 1242, 1243, 1245, 1246, 1257, 1258 that series felt like genuine emotion and like a legitimate meltdown which I feel like wouldn't be necessary to do in that situation as scum, so I'm slightly townleaning the slot atm

hercule -

locktown bay bee

OkaPoka -

okapoka... now this slot. see this is where I wanna do a vocaroo because I have a lot to say and I'm gonna fuck up elucidating it. but here we go

so I'm trying to view this from an ego-less place right but I think there are a couple good points to be made regarding them and some involve me

1. I think Dann said they were the top poster again and yet weren't providing the same presence and I FELT this. I remember game 1 I basically had to instantly townread them because I was aware how obvtown they were I really had no choice. But I don't feel that at all this game

2. Their vote on me. Because, they keep saying "yeah I have secret meta on hercule I won't be able to read him until later", yet they vote me initially. Ok, sure, maybe to pressure, acceptable. Then they vote somewhere else. And THEN, the worst is like "hey oka where we voting" and oka is like "back to hercule!" and then has basically just sat there for a few days now with no inclination that they actually think i'm mafia, they keep saying "yeah I can read hercule later" then why are you voting me still? Like last game oka was bouncing around everywhere and anywhere that had a pulse with his vote, and this game they're just chilling on someone they think they can't read until later

now they kind of addressed this in 1347, 1349, 1351, but to me like it's too little too late once the wheels are already falling off the wagon

DrippingGoofball -

town. if someone is pocketing me this game though it's DrippingGoofBall. I feel their intro to the game is almost exactly like last game, I also liked DGB calling out people for discrediting mastina, because clearly mastina was ready to take over game 1 and prob can do it this game as well, seemed way too early to start shading her. I think there was one post as well where DGB had a pros and cons list on one of xtoxm's posts which struck me as towny. lemme pull it up. ok so 411 struck me as towny because DGB gave +town and +scum to the same thing (scumreading LLD) which seemed a bit openly contradictory, but it was nuanced, in a way that seems like it would be difficult for scum to fake. idk if i'm elaborating enough on these points. in essence, the thought process of "scumreading LLD in a vacuum kinda towny -> scumreading LLD without considering this extra layer kinda scummy" seems like it would be weird to come up with as someone with TMI. also ngl 758 gave me the validation I crave and therefore increased the pocket

jjh927 -

gth town but not quite enough to be sure. I can vibe with their stated philosophy. makes it a little harder to catch them if they're scum but I kind of feel like they will just reveal themselves as the game goes on. petapan told me they will just coast and make accurate reads and so far that's what they're doing so fuck ya. 891 also gave me good vibes, felt like a good question to ask in the moment

Cephrir -

mmm okay so Ceph. I have a couple thoughts on Ceph as well

1. I don't think LLD / Ceph are partners. In the moment of hardpushing me a couple days ago LLD basically like grabbed Ceph by his shoulders and shook him and was like yelling at him to vote me, which I feel like would be way overdramatic as partners and would just frame them in a horrible light after I flipped

2. Ceph's energy is very similar to last game. I see a lot of the same playstyle as well, coasting on the sidelines, no particularly incisive reads. G1 they did have the Agar case but the rest, like during xtoxm/abr they were just going with the flow and I see that again here, 835 "ah yes now something i can hate" kinda pinged me as well

Ythan -

mmm idk. joqiza thinks they're scum but I think they're remarkably similar in tone to last game. idk how to read them. gth town

Almost50 -

A50 is someone who... I dunno, when looking at the game from a fresh perspective I think they're towny

They're just like really unapologetic and raw it feels like. For example 392 they're just like ya I ain't reading everything who cares, 701 I completely vibe with and I thought was towny, 979 looks towny especially considering I think dann very well could be town and he was talking mastina out of going there

At first I felt they were off as compared to last game and thought it was scummy they kept discrediting me for no reason but they didn't even really push on me so egoless!hercule is willing to write that off. also they asked me to get petapan's read on them which I will do today

Dunnstral -

Dunnstral is a slot I have a hard time reading. gth... scum. It feels like their content is "towny" but in the sense that it's wrapped up to look towny rather than being genuinely so. when the wagon on me first started I considered their vote on me to be fine cuz they were like "no reasons to townread yet" which was like, yeah sure, that's a legit enough reason to vote someone. And then again I thought it was towny that they voted me and then unvoted me and then voted me again within 9 minutes but the more I thought about it, 1054 as the main reason seems kind of sheepy / hedging so that he can continue to vote me but blame others when I flip town and then point to his unvote that he was trying to sort me genuinely..

Dunnstral strikes me as the type of scumplayer who would just look generically towny and not really do much except try to avoid the spotlight in early days and then kind of up their game later on.

----------------

ok that's a decent summary of my thoughts, I'm sure there's more. if I were to make a tierlist atm it would look like....

Hard Town

mastina

Towny

Hopkirk
DrippingGoofBall
Xtoxm
Almost50
Winter Flakes
Dannflor

Feel Like They're Town

innocentvillager
Agar
Jjh

Maybe Town?

Lady Lambdadelta
Ythan
Titus

Not Particularly Towny

Dunnstral
the worst

Kinda Sus

Cephrir
OkaPoka

[hercule]

i guess i'll unvote for now, not rly sure what i wanna do with my vote

UNVOTE:

[hercule]

also lol at the discourse regarding me being coached, let me just say that even when i was scum the best i got from asking "yo wtf do i do about these competing wagons my partners" to my teammates was effectively "lol rip idk bus"

[Cephrir]

rules are rules, and one of the rules is people who're new to be scumreading me for reasons that don't actually apply to me. that's ok tho.

[hercule]

rules are rules, and one of the rules is people who're new to be scumreading me for reasons that don't actually apply to me. that's ok tho.

hold my hand and explain to me what doesn't apply to you

[Cephrir]

and i mean, it's not gonna do much for you because lolselfmeta.

but you may recall me saying in the scum pt last game that my scum game is imitating my town game. so by suspecting me for being similar, you're kinda just complimenting my play last game.

[OkaPoka]

pretty world this is

admittedly most of the time when hercule post my visceral reaction is townleans and i end up walking back on it a few hours later but this is no different, it does look pretty townie

and he unvoted LLD ugh is it mastina, i really can't do mastina

[Cephrir]

so thanks!