TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[hercule]

your going to love me but a political move of me to town

i was testing a theory but obv did not hold maybe i poisoned the well butttttttt im going to go think it over

explicitly state your theory

[OkaPoka]

game theory:

mastina wants LLD dead for whatever reason. now she won't admit she is playing politically but i felt she was playing politically. anyways i tested my theory because i felt like she was trying to get me to vote LLD through putting me into scum buckets, by voting LLD and seeing if she moved me anywhere. clearly she didn't i.e. my theory on mastina playing politically is wrong i.e. my theory of scum!mastina playing politically is wrong.

unless i poisoned the well by preemptively calling it out but i do think if she was playing it that way she would've moved me up regardless.

[mastina]

why is DGB on your list twice @mastina did you move them up a tier

Sort-of. DGB has been, for quite some time, a strong townread of mine but not in my townbloc in spite of our read resonance on LLD being scum. If LLD isn't scum, that is an accurate placement for her: strong townread of mine, but not quite townbloc thanks to not being up-to-date on DGB's scumplay, essentially.

If LLD is scum, however, then that placement is too low. The read resonance proving to be accurate would move her to firmly in the townbloc due to her accuracy on top of the reasons for the strong townread.

In short: If LLD is scum, DGB's play goes beyond the realm of bussing imo; she's already a strong townread and that strong of a push on her scumbuddy isn't something I think happens with her scum so she is 100% town beyond any reasonable doubt and the core of core townbloc members.

If LLD isn't scum, DGB's not AS town, but remains one of my strongest townreads because the strong push with the high read resonance and overall approach is still something I don't think comes from scum. It's just that it being on town lessens its certainty, basically.

[DrippingGoofball]

one of my teammates has convinced me that LLD was doing fakerage

Interesting. I didn't want to touch on this because it's so subjective, but I am a huge sucker of AtE, it makes me just want to hug people and call them town. LLD's has left me completely unmoved.

[hercule]

game theory:

mastina wants LLD dead for whatever reason. now she won't admit she is playing politically but i felt she was playing politically. anyways i tested my theory because i felt like she was trying to get me to vote LLD through putting me into scum buckets, by voting LLD and seeing if she moved me anywhere. clearly she didn't i.e. my theory on mastina playing politically is wrong i.e. my theory of scum!mastina playing politically is wrong.

unless i poisoned the well by preemptively calling it out but i do think if she was playing it that way she would've moved me up regardless.

i don't really understand your reasoning here. when you say "playing politically" is that a euphemism for scum agenda? what's your take on LLD regardless of mastina?

why is DGB on your list twice @mastina did you move them up a tier

Sort-of. DGB has been, for quite some time, a strong townread of mine but not in my townbloc in spite of our read resonance on LLD being scum. If LLD isn't scum, that is an accurate placement for her: strong townread of mine, but not quite townbloc thanks to not being up-to-date on DGB's scumplay, essentially.

If LLD is scum, however, then that placement is too low. The read resonance proving to be accurate would move her to firmly in the townbloc due to her accuracy on top of the reasons for the strong townread.

In short: If LLD is scum, DGB's play goes beyond the realm of bussing imo; she's already a strong townread and that strong of a push on her scumbuddy isn't something I think happens with her scum so she is 100% town beyond any reasonable doubt and the core of core townbloc members.

If LLD isn't scum, DGB's not AS town, but remains one of my strongest townreads because the strong push with the high read resonance and overall approach is still something I don't think comes from scum. It's just that it being on town lessens its certainty, basically.

yeah ok, makes sense to me

one of my teammates has convinced me that LLD was doing fakerage

Interesting. I didn't want to touch on this because it's so subjective, but I am a huge sucker of AtE, it makes me just want to hug people and call them town. LLD's has left me completely unmoved.

yeah I mean I thought her annoyance with mastina / the game sounded genuine but - and I am not gonna go into specifics here and was intentionally vague because one of my teammates really does not want their name attached to LLD in any way here (though perhaps I am not being as coy as I should be, still, I can't help but share some insight into my evolving thoughts) - basically they were like "yeah no this is textbook LLD scum AtE" and I buy it

[Dannflor]

I’m sorry but WaGoning LLD has decidedly not been like pulling teeth and it’s been entirely too easy *especially* considering the type of player she is

please do not loleliminate her right now

[hercule]

I’m sorry but WaGoning LLD has decidedly not been like pulling teeth and it’s been entirely too easy *especially* considering the type of player she is

please do not loleliminate her right now

I saw your sneak peek for the theory you're building but this alone is not convincing for me. It's only at L-3 now, I don't want to unvote on something I feel flips scum but I will in the event that it gets close to a hammer and you need time to finish your case

[OkaPoka]

on this

okay working theory: i think LLD is town. sorry but opening up with mastina sux and trying to fight mastina while townreading them is an overcomplication as scum. leaving the thread now when votes are piling on you? that's just silly as scum, maybe as emotional town i can see it because she'll be like not my fault u guys suck.

anyways mastina not biting at my vote and reaction test, i think i can mark her as town for now. why? because i've counted the votes needed to flip LLD, the math is ugly and she 100% is going to be scrapping for votes to lim LLD if she really wants it. the thing is, mastina scum i think would be more readily available to compromise for this because obviously she's not going to think her case is solid. and mastina town, probably is so convinced she is right, she doesn't care and thinks the evidence speaks for itself. a political move is bold yes, but pushing LLD (if my theory about LLD being town is right) is also bold for mastina so if mastina was scum, leaping to compromises i don't think is exactly out of the realm of possibility. limming LLD is probably a top priority for a scum!mastina, but i think this is town. scum mastina probably does the math and realizes compromises need to be had.

also i like the herc is town theory, you know what, i can buy it. mastina's outlined it before, he's reacting a lot different yes, but also, here's the rub, the way herc plays scum is a lot more proactive with buddying. there i dropped the secret tell. he goes out of his way to try and buddy up with people as scum, i don't really see that, whatever that's fine. okay so what do i do with LLD town and town mastina and herc town?

VOTE: dgb

Here are my thoughts, when dgb latched onto LLD, LLD was not viable wagon at all. you know what was? herc wagon. i think the most routine scumplay in the book is to wagon the person who is pushing the miselim (which would be herc). it's a two for one stone, lld wants the BoP, dgb gets to clean its hands by letting lld get the wagon through, let it green, and then be the first to take out LLD. am i preflipping? yes, but fuck it you know.

dgb has been pretty open about the buddying play this game, like it was last game, but there is a huge difference. dgb is actively trying to use the buddying to get votes, its a little blatant, and i think that's by design. we know dgb was buddy-y last game as town so it shouldn't raise any red flags, but i think that's superficial. the way dgb is using buddying this game is to hard push an LLD elim. dgb also keeps hinting at wanting to end the day fast, but doing that on LLD is a pretty bad idea and i think dgb should know lld's value as town, not a great person to end the day on. anyways the core of this is dgb is using buddying this game to get the agenda done of a presumably miselim while last game the budding did not feel agenda-y.

absolutely no proofreads i gtg but YEET

[hercule]

@OkaPoka if i'm boiling this down correctly:

your townread on LLD is based on her townreading mastina despite mastina scumreading her? I don't feel like that's strong enough of a case. There are other ways for scum to deal with someone scumreading them, nightkill is an obvious choice

and your townread on me is based one me not buddying anyone? couldn't you classify my interactions with mastina as buddying? she hard trs me and i hard tr her back

I don't see how those are strong enough to reach the conclusion you did that DGB is orchestrating a town v town with a scum agenda. I do concede that if LLD vs me was town v town then scum would be more keen on an LLD flip just based on meta, but the rest seems weak

[Dannflor]

Yknow that’s a good post

[mastina]

sorry but opening up with mastina sux and trying to fight mastina while townreading them is an overcomplication as scum.

Out of all the possible reasons for townreading LLD this has to top the charts in how bad it is.

LLD's default treatment of me is exactly this--she says I suck because it helps her, and she calls me town because doing otherwise is inconvenient for her. That's basically it, no further depth to it. You can add layers to it if you want, but at the end of the day, the two's reasoning boils down to exactly that. Saying I suck helps her; saying I'm town is more convenient than trying to scumcase me.

It is in fact any other combination which would be more town from her. Saying I suck and I'm scum; saying I don't suck but am scum; saying I don't suck and am not scum; literally any of those would be a legit surprise to me. (The order of most scum to least scum is insulting me+townread > insulting me+scumread > no insult+scumread > no insult+townread, loosely; I've no real reason to hold back on this since regardless of her alignment me saying this won't affect LLD's actions. She'd probably be insulted if I insinuated that me disclosing this would influence her, because I know it won't.)

I should add the caveat that insulting me and townreading me is not actually scum-indicative. It's the most-scum combination of the four possibilities, but I consider it to be the closest to NAI as is possible since when I say insulting me helps her, it does so regardless of her alignment.

[mastina]

and your townread on me is based one me not buddying anyone? couldn't you classify my interactions with mastina as buddying? she hard trs me and i hard tr her back

Also this.

[Dannflor]

I’m not sure how much I agree with it yet but I finally might be townreading you

[innocentvillager]

mastina I totally agree there is a degree to which you can’t just “be different”. Like I said earlier the thing I’m not convinced of yet is whether or not he has crossed that boundary of “so different he’s unlikely to emulate all these different things”. Once I convince myself or someone else convinces me that will turn into a stronger townlean on hercule

[innocentvillager]

as I’ve said before I am totally open to LLD/dann/mastina/hercule all being town and will entertain any theories on how scum are positioning themselves around this

[innocentvillager]

i do think dgb’s treatment of my slot has been a little weird i don’t mind moving them back to null for now I guess

[Dannflor]

I’m not sure how much I agree with it yet but I finally might be townreading you

And no not just because it was a long post CEPHRIR

[DrippingGoofball]

I’m sorry but WaGoning LLD has decidedly not been like pulling teeth and it’s been entirely too easy *especially* considering the type of player she is

please do not loleliminate her right now

I'm the game dentist, I should know what pulling teeth is like.

[DrippingGoofball]

It has not escaped my notice that Dannflor is reducing the case against LLD as a lolwagon.

[OkaPoka]

@OkaPoka if i'm boiling this down correctly:

your townread on LLD is based on her townreading mastina despite mastina scumreading her? I don't feel like that's strong enough of a case. There are other ways for scum to deal with someone scumreading them, nightkill is an obvious choice

and your townread on me is based one me not buddying anyone? couldn't you classify my interactions with mastina as buddying? she hard trs me and i hard tr her back

I don't see how those are strong enough to reach the conclusion you did that DGB is orchestrating a town v town with a scum agenda. I do concede that if LLD vs me was town v town then scum would be more keen on an LLD flip just based on meta, but the rest seems weak

alright im just going to drop my summoning of cthulhu because i just got busy irl and no time for rituals besides half the list found out at the same time on d1 so it ruined my gambit

my townread on LLD is partially stemming from this yes. there are ways to engage this for LLD and the fact that LLD is still treating mastina as town when she as every single right to policy scumread her i think is a massive signal that LLD is town. its an extra layer of extreme overcomplication because LLD is essentially relying on other people to dig her out, and other people have been trying and failing, why isn't LLD stepping in ever? because probably she's town. she's obviously a power-wolfer, i think a power-wolfer is going to be like okay play time's over IM IN CONTROL. lld in response to people wagoning her as done everything in her path to literally lose agency. not scumreading mastina is a massive loss of agency. unless LLD has some exact scumteam of like dannflor, ceph, and idk someone else whom she fully trusts to dig her out, like why? that's the question you gotta ask with players like LLD. like why you doing this LLD if your scum?

nightkills tbh lol i have no idea i hate setups with nightkills. actually mountainous nightless is my dream setup /shrug maybe. look im not going to speculate in my weakest area which is anything related to night actions. in fact mastina can vouch for how i suck at pr play.

no there is a difference between what you are doing with mastina here and what you did to me last game. you kinda just hid behind me last game for a long time with gems like

maybe i fuck around and VOTE: xtoxm with you

and sheep voting with me. and there was countless times where i saw you in that last game basically waiting on me to do something and asking me what to do, like that's the sheepy buddy buddy hercule koba described to me. mutual townreads != buddying.

[Dannflor]

It has not escaped my notice that Dannflor is reducing the case against LLD as a lolwagon.

cases are scummy

[OkaPoka]

sorry but opening up with mastina sux and trying to fight mastina while townreading them is an overcomplication as scum.

Out of all the possible reasons for townreading LLD this has to top the charts in how bad it is.

LLD's default treatment of me is exactly this--she says I suck because it helps her, and she calls me town because doing otherwise is inconvenient for her. That's basically it, no further depth to it. You can add layers to it if you want, but at the end of the day, the two's reasoning boils down to exactly that. Saying I suck helps her; saying I'm town is more convenient than trying to scumcase me.

It is in fact any other combination which would be more town from her. Saying I suck and I'm scum; saying I don't suck but am scum; saying I don't suck and am not scum; literally any of those would be a legit surprise to me. (The order of most scum to least scum is insulting me+townread > insulting me+scumread > no insult+scumread > no insult+townread, loosely; I've no real reason to hold back on this since regardless of her alignment me saying this won't affect LLD's actions. She'd probably be insulted if I insinuated that me disclosing this would influence her, because I know it won't.)

I should add the caveat that insulting me and townreading me is not actually scum-indicative. It's the most-scum combination of the four possibilities, but I consider it to be the closest to NAI as is possible since when I say insulting me helps her, it does so regardless of her alignment.

mastina it should be a red flag that LLD is trying to convince you, mastina, to swap on hercule. instead of doing anything else, like trying to dismantle the waogn on her by screaming at us and bullying us until we feel bad, she chooses to hop in thread, type about how you are wrong, and then leave the thread. that's basically her game plan her. look if this is scum lld this is quite possibly the most singular dimensional gameplan ive ever seen from someone pooky and mathblade described to me as literally not worth pushing as scum. she's going to scream at you that you are wrong and log off as the wagon builds? a little silly right? maybe i eat my words if she's scum but if she's scum like pooky and math lied to me or something and im not going to assume my teammates have decided to fuck with me.

[OkaPoka]

anyways dgb is superficially similar in style to last game but i think the agenda of its posts is a whole lot different and it makes sense to be the scum slot if we have lld/herc/mastina as all town. ok now sheep me or throw rocks im going to YEET out again

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: dgb the chicken Is making a lot of sense lately and I’m starting to tr lld

[OkaPoka]

thank you okay now i logoff for real i got shit to do byeeeeeee

iv you can field all questions for me teehee