Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[floo]

Prism please unvote. I'm writing up some explanations

[Prism]

If you're not clear on why I chose now to vote:

I checked against every other slot. Nothing changed. floo's little content today has been disingenuous in the case of the second post and outright wrong and nonsensical in the case of the first. This is disingenuous at best and predatory at worst. The fact that he is dropping shady one liners and dipping speaks volumes.

This can and should be punished. If Spartan is scum he needs to justify that read or 180 it and bus and justify it in 3 way. If flow trap is scum he needs to prove they're not sitting around waiting for 24 hours to deadline to be opportunistic like they did yesterday. I do not want 2 town players going "AHHHHH IDK THIS IS SO HARD XD" 24 hours to deadline.

[Prism]

Claim.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

[Prism]

I am 99% voting you today regardless of what it is. The 1% is that you are doctor.

I will humor you for a second, but not for long. I'll circle back to whatever you write when I get off work.

[quiet]

For context, floo, I'm at like, 80% voting you. 15% is I find spartian/flow trap low frequency but viable, 5% is my paranoia talking.

Thanks for the unvote, prism. If there is no further development in like, 12-24 hours, then I'll vote floo with you, frankly.

[quiet]

I checked against every other slot. Nothing changed. floo's little content today has been disingenuous in the case of the second post and outright wrong and nonsensical in the case of the first. This is disingenuous at best and predatory at worst. The fact that he is dropping shady one liners and dipping speaks volumes.

This can and should be punished. If Spartan is scum he needs to justify that read or 180 it and bus and justify it in 3 way. If flow trap is scum he needs to prove they're not sitting around waiting for 24 hours to deadline to be opportunistic like they did yesterday. I do not want 2 town players going "AHHHHH IDK THIS IS SO HARD XD" 24 hours to deadline.

This is valid reasoning, especially the first paragraph. I legitimately cringed at floo's entrance today.

[quiet]

I also don't think flow trap's voting scheme is the worst, I want him to take a clear stance as opposed to hammersitting

as long as Spartan and quiet both understand that a floo trap scum voting one way does not mean vote the opposite.

My general take is I'm not going to vote in nearly any circumstance until I'm ready for the day to end, like, immediately, and I am highly confident that my vote is on scum and only scum. That is my voting strategy.

I have been lightly TRing flow trap's input today, his voting scheme being part of that light lean.

[Prism]

Doesn't have to be in the next day re: your vote quiet, we again have 5 days, point of the vote isn't to drive it through to 3 way immediately. It's to skip the 5 day parade if I'm wrong and force people to get off the lukewarm fence or follow through on the "But what if Prism is just the best scum in the history of mafia ever?" claims with actual reasoning.

[quiet]

makes sense. I'll be in a holding pattern till spartan + floo chime in

[quiet]

Prism please unvote. I'm writing up some explanations

Also, if you are town here, by FAR the best thing you can do is just start posting stream of conciousness stuff. Respond to some directions, stick around in the thread for a little if your time allows. Tell me a time when you will be on, and I'll make it happen.

These posts where you carefully write up detailed explanations don't particularly read to me as towny, unfortunately, as it's been raised repeatedly and not yet countered that careful, detailed posts can be scum making sure they aren't slipping.

As I've said before, for me, thinking you are town practically requires flow or spartan or most likely both to be scum. I want to hear your thoughts on this. Even just flash impressions prior to any kind of research or detailed explanations would make me feel considerably better.

[quiet]

*respond to some questions, not directions.

[Prism]

somewhere ffery is enjoying watching me suffer, until i cast it as suffering

[Prism]

I call this one "A Tough Choice"

Spoiler:

Alright back to work

[floo]

My case for myself.

I held back many of my thoughts D1 and planned to state them when it would make an impact. A lot of the time I felt like offering a little of my direction into some interactions, but ultimately decided not to in order to wait. I was more concerned about getting the style of my posts right in quoting post numbers and better grammar, which meant that I thought about them a lot before I posted them. Often after re-reading them I thought "what's the point?" and just never posted them. For example, I only stated my comments about the safebet E-1 drama on D2 and Sal's wrong conceptions of the game (e.g. town never hides/lies) at the end of D1. There were times, however, when I was more confident in a read or I felt like something had to be said, as when I speculated about Enchant's motive for claiming Mafia or pointed out early towny posts from flow trap. Questions like asking flow trap about why safebet was townread or the instant wagon was helpful were necessary for a better read. Often, minor thoughts with no impact will never be stated or just forgotten. If I have not replied to a question, my refusal to speak implies the answer (usually no). The game here seems to be more active than is usual on the site, and I found that reading the thread and stating basic opinions took more time than I had expected. I was too carefully controlling my mouth, yes, but because of my adjusting to the forum format and my wrong expectations. I'm stating my explanations myself, and for all I know a spectator non-floo me could be seeing floo as making an excuse, but I hope you will see at least why this is not unequivocally scummy.

On Day 2, I realized I needed to put more effort in. The Sal scumread wasn't all because of the overdefensiveness. On D1 there were some interactions that seem fake, town doesn't go parading around town shouting "I'm town" to every passerby, simplistic views of Mafia/reasons for reading people, Fredrick being continuously scumread for an outdated reason. I noticed the overdefensiveness before but it took a look at her ISO with that point in mind to realize how extreme it was. The counter-argument to the overdefensive Sal argument was something like a TSTBS argument or a plausible town motive argument. Both fair objections, but even if it was narrowly more likely than not for the overdefensiveness to be scum, I still had the other reasons to scumread her. I was mainly focused on finding scumreads in a pool of mostly guttowny players (versus about half the game being gutscum), because both suspicious Enchant and EZ had flipped town. The essay about overdefensiveness was prompted by objections to it, not because I thought it was the overwhelming best scumtell. It was the focus of the Sal argument, so I naturally spent more time on it. Sorry if I didn't make clear some other suspicious behavior from Sal; it escaped my mind, and I unfortunately dug myself into a hole for that. I will apologize for poor plays when they are pointed out by other players and I agree that they were poor plays. I will be honest if I was wrong in the past. I will not let humiliation get in the way of making good plays.

From the fairy replacement I was scouting around the game to help solve it. To see if my reads were real, think about the validity of my final D2 reads. I have an independent mentality, making my own reads by myself. I don't need other players' validation to make reads. I don't retract my opinions just because every player disagrees with me. Of course if that happens, I will reconsider my opinions, but if I still believe they are valid I will act on them and act on them and argue them until I can win. My variation in activity, discussed topics, and posting volume is a personal feature or problem. If you do not like that, you can speculate about everything you want but know I am putting in effort; I have nothing more elaborate to say about this variation that will convince you. When you accuse me wrongly, in good faith or bad faith, I will not flail when I have nothing more to say that will convince you. I can explain what I meant, but it seems that you will never stop speculating about every droplet of scum motive I have and still assume that I am scum. I will move on.

I could respond to every question and accusation aimed toward me in my further defense, or do a post-by-post analysis of my own posts and explain my motives, but that is pointless unless you can point out a serious issue that I haven't explained. I will focus on getting my reads right this time.

[flow trap]

If it comes down to Prism v Floo, I'm highly requesting Quiet/Spartan to not place votes until I do; it will basically have the same outcome but protect against a Spartan+Prism/Floo+Quiet team

Wait can I vote on floo though? Cause as things stand, that's my highest frequency vote.

No, because if it's Prism and Spartan it's a guaranteed loss

[flow trap]

I will not flail when I have nothing more to say that will convince you

That is a good point

Ahhhh why do Floo and Prism both sound town

[quiet]

@Flow ah, I see. Fair enough.

@Floo, the way I sort other players is mostly through interactions. I feel like I've gotten the least amount of interactions from you. Your case on yourself is kinda NAI to me. I will continue to ask, and I promise not to jump on your first impressions and hold you to them, you can focus on getting your reads correct over the next little bit, but what I need to sort you is just...your impressions. your thoughts on the state of the game. Just tell me what you are feeling right this second. You can change your mind on reflection, but I'm lowkey begging for something from you in regards to the game, because otherwise I don't know how I can find you town today.

[quiet]

In post 1814, floo wrote:
I will not flail when I have nothing more to say that will convince you
That is a good point
Ahhhh why do Floo and Prism both sound town

I actually somewhat disagree. There is 100% some stuff they could do to convince me. I've been asking for it since the start of the day; a conversational, not carefully crafted, ASAP flash reads on the game, and especially on {spartan, flow trap}. I'm still asking for it.

[flow trap]

I believe they were talking to Prism though

[quiet]

is there a floo town, prism town world though? I think we see a hammer in that case, frankly.

so floo should really be talking to me, too. Unless floo thinks I'm scum, and Prism is town? Or it's Prism+me?

[quiet]

I held back many of my thoughts D1 and planned to state them when it would make an impact. A lot of the time I felt like offering a little of my direction into some interactions, but ultimately decided not to in order to wait. I was more concerned about getting the style of my posts right in quoting post numbers and better grammar, which meant that I thought about them a lot before I posted them. Often after re-reading them I thought "what's the point?" and just never posted them. For example, I only stated my comments about the safebet E-1 drama on D2 and Sal's wrong conceptions of the game (e.g. town never hides/lies) at the end of D1. There were times, however, when I was more confident in a read or I felt like something had to be said, as when I speculated about Enchant's motive for claiming Mafia or pointed out early towny posts from flow trap. Questions like asking flow trap about why safebet was townread or the instant wagon was helpful were necessary for a better read. Often, minor thoughts with no impact will never be stated or just forgotten. If I have not replied to a question, my refusal to speak implies the answer (usually no). The game here seems to be more active than is usual on the site, and I found that reading the thread and stating basic opinions took more time than I had expected. I was too carefully controlling my mouth, yes, but because of my adjusting to the forum format and my wrong expectations. I'm stating my explanations myself, and for all I know a spectator non-floo me could be seeing floo as making an excuse, but I hope you will see at least why this is not unequivocally scummy.

Like @floo, can you understand why I'm struggling so hard to find you as town? I feel like a part of your responsibility as town is to make that fact obvious to the rest of the game. You can have all the work and effort in the world, but because you are carefully controlling your mouth, it's hard for me to determine what is town!Floo and what could be scum!Floo. If in any way possible, turn off those filters for a bit. I'm not saying that how you play is unequivocally scummy, just that in a tense 5 person elo, this cageyness just as so much utility in not spewing your partner as scum that it's really challenging for me to overlook that, especially given how strongly I TR prism.

[flow trap]

so floo should really be talking to me, too. Unless floo thinks I'm scum, and Prism is town? Or it's Prism+me?

If floo thinks you're scum that's all the more reason to talk to you

[Prism]

On Day 2, I realized I needed to put more effort in. The Sal scumread wasn't all because of the overdefensiveness. On D1 there were some interactions that seem fake, town doesn't go parading around town shouting "I'm town" to every passerby, simplistic views of Mafia/reasons for reading people, Fredrick being continuously scumread for an outdated reason. I noticed the overdefensiveness before but it took a look at her ISO with that point in mind to realize how extreme it was. The counter-argument to the overdefensive Sal argument was something like a TSTBS argument or a plausible town motive argument. Both fair objections, but even if it was narrowly more likely than not for the overdefensiveness to be scum, I still had the other reasons to scumread her. I was mainly focused on finding scumreads in a pool of mostly guttowny players (versus about half the game being gutscum), because both suspicious Enchant and EZ had flipped town. The essay about overdefensiveness was prompted by objections to it, not because I thought it was the overwhelming best scumtell. It was the focus of the Sal argument, so I naturally spent more time on it. Sorry if I didn't make clear some other suspicious behavior from Sal; it escaped my mind, and I unfortunately dug myself into a hole for that.

This does not tackle the crux of why I suspect your Salsabil push was scumdriven.

To be as specific as possible, the primary issue is: How were you looking to differentiate between an upset/frustrated town Salsabil and a fearful scum Salsabil?

As a secondary issue, you again refused to actually work through the implications of the reaction and the replaceout. This goes beyond having more reasoning before your vote. The next part of your post skips to after the replacement without commenting on it.

The first/third paragraphs are a great explanation of why your play this game is just you not reacting to things. The third paragraph specifically is tackling this broad idea that you've been wrong and have been wrong but will stand strong in the face of the wind, but others trying to bully you out of your reads is not the issue. You have outright refused to engage with my play for extended sections of the game despite being willing to vote me. You called my frequent posting "flying under the radar" and openly admitted to not having read or seriously evaluated the more vocal slots. This is not you playing close to your chest.

For all of the talk about standing strong in your reads in the face of adversity, hardship, this entire wall minus the second paragraph I quoted is flailing.

All of the third/fourth paragraph are giant AtEs. You didn't address my points about your first two posts of the day at all.

Taking a call be back soon

[fferyllt]

allez