Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-6

Some of the coolest geological features of Iceland aren't on land. This is Silfra Fissure, where you can take a dive and be within touching distance of two continents.

floo

(1): Prism

Not Voting

(4): flow trap, floo, Spartan117, quiet

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: February 9, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-02-09 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Prism]

floo, here's an idea: Since the bolded implies it, rather than forcing me to explain your point explicitly in order to refute it:

Maybe you should explain it yourself!

Why was fairyprincess69 widely townread from your perspective, and what makes him especially difficult for them to get voted today if I am mafia?

[Prism]

I wanted you N1ed basically because you weren't ever getting lynched (Which is my #1 criteria for shots)

I was mafia the game this quote is from, maybe I was lying for towncred?

Oh wait, this comment was doing postgame analysis. Damn!

[quiet]

Silfra Fissure

Silfra Fissure? Salsa Fairy???? I sense a conspiracy here.

Thanks for responding, floo.

[quiet]

that was an early submit, I was going to actually respond to some of your response. Give me a sec

[Prism]

Spartan, I'm going to try to make this as readable as possible, which is hard to do by making a huge wall split into a million quotes. I'm going to give my direct reply in

red

instead, that way you can immediately see what I am referencing.

Spoiler: Quote wall

Below I am going to list a few quotes I found to give me a feeling of them being town, whether it was from them trying to scum hunt/sort people, or engage with others.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Early on as far as D1 goes but was trying to obtain information from flow trap rather than some reactions that scum may have been fine with and just ridden along, as scumfloo surely wouldn't have been as worried about putting in the effort in, especially to try and divert the game towards a productive direction.

Scum definitely need to put in effort early, you see lurkers getting voted all the time, eg. Frederick this game. I liked their start too, but for the second part: There is again some incentive to actively sort/hunt as scum, and at this point it is clear that at least one of us has done so. For my part, I have done my best to keep us moving repeatedly throughout the game.

What about safebet222?

Chasing up flow trap so as to get the full answer from him, something far more likely to come from town while scum would be less inclined to push for the full answer.

Again, scum have incentive to actually pressure/sort, otherwise we'd both be town here.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

The concern of coming across scummy and feeling the need to explain why they expressed themselves in a certain way is a bit sus but i can see the reason as to why they are saying it, so NAI for me here.

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

This read met with what was going on at the time, and felt a natural branch out from the previous focus he had put on flow trap up to this point.

I feel like this is the dangerous "mindmeld" aspect since I know you scumread esoteric too. It's not a terrible read but again, not a town beacon.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

Again trying to break down reads understand possible reasons for posts and at the very least providing perspectives for townies to view from.

Again, pretty basic imo

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

Again coming across very townie, pushing players looking for reads trying to view things from different perspectives to analyse things from all angles rather than just focusing on one view and holding it and pushing it without looking at the alternatives.

Again I am left wondering who you think the scum is here given that we have literally all been doing this-giving perspectives, often both sides, and actively hunting/pushing-this game.

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

At the end of D1 he unvoted enchant to ensure the day didnt end too quickly so that the conversation could continue something i think is only in the interests of town, it could have been so much easier for him to just leave his vote on there, but instead he unvotes.

It's a safe unvote as scum if you're aware they did something terrible and are unlikely to recover from even if you do nothing. I actually did the same later for a much more specific reason (I thought the reads wall was worth considering given the effort, Enchant-scum is incentivized to just shut up and quit). This just adds texture

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant appears to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

Again viewing things from both sides, short and simple but at the very least not cancelling any options out completely.

Yeah we've been over this at this point, probably just going to start skipping over these.

1005 came across from a towns perspective as well i could see where he was coming from even if i didnt agree with all the points he made. Town aren't all suppose to agree with the same points as we are looking at things from different perspectives assuming everyone but ourselves is possible mafia.

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

Expressed thoughts on the D1 NK something that he didnt have to do, but felt the need to review to express more reads and delve deeper into the ties between players, something that some other players at the time were not willing to do.

I hated the NK spec N1 personally-I think NK spec earlygame tends to just be a wild goose chase when scum frequently shoot for vague PR feelings-but it's really trivial to fake, especially if you spent all night thinking about the kill

1108 pushing sal based of the image conscious nature they presented of themselves.

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I can see the logic in the reasoning behind their push on the origin from Sals reaction, while Sal had appeared townie day 1, I can see why with several of Sals posts which showed signs of concern about being scum read to be suspicious so I think this route of enquiry makes logical sense.


1202 He provides a full breakdown of Sals posts with other players looking at it from her perspective as well as from the outside rather than just attacking for his opinion upon what she has said. and at the very end of his post its not just ending the situation there say with a vote, he leaves it open for more room for discussion so that the situation can develop and more reads can progress.

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

Townie reaction that I can resonate with, frustration from being palmed off.

I'm going to respond to this section about the Salsabil read as a whole. I concur in thinking Salsabil was defensive, overreactionary, etc. was a decent push. My issue came because town get frustrated/upset/indignant all the time, if floo has chat mafia experience he's definitely seen it, and they openly baited more of the emotion to keep shoving rather than try to differentiate the two. It's fine to take a guess, but floo is baiting something out that's going to happen regardless, rather than actually trying to differentiate it. It has always and remains unclear what floo was looking for if Salsabil was upset/frustrated as scum. He pushed her for playing dismissively/suboptimally and then actively tried to bait out more of it. He knows there's a chance it's town, the concern should be

telling the angry Salsabil and the fearful Salsabil apart

, and he never seriously tried to do so and refused to engage with the slot even when shown to be legitimate.

1223 1225 while reviewing quiets slot, not only does floo provide a breakdown of posts of quiets with descriptions of their thoughts on them, he also breaks down safebets posts from before they switched out to try and gain a more in-depth read on the slot, something that i dont see scum bothering to do, it just strikes me as something townie.

bruh I'm sorry but we've literally all done this this game

1259 expands on his reads of quiet providing more reads and information also doubting himself at the start of the post opening himself up for people to respond and challenge his read of their slot, not being close minded that his read is final and having an open mind ready for change is another aspect that makes me feel very townie with his slot.

1317 1318 his posts here seem methodical and thought out coming across to me as if trying to solve the puzzle, trying to have open discussion with prism going through post by post on his thoughts about the posts and interactions between him and sal on their reasoning for scumreading him.

1548 His final reads on D2, while I may not agree with all of it I can understand his rational behind why he thinks that way and it doesn't come across like his is trying to push a point that has some agenda behind it, more that they are his opinions.

For all of the above, mafia is not "they're scum/town. i am sure. they have no reasons." Scum are fully capable of having texture. We have literally all done this this game. The reads wall he gave absolutely had an agenda, it dodges the most pressing issues and the read on me was transparently a non-read if you review it. His entire progression on me was awful: go back and look at the response he gave to you about me.

So my impression now that I've finished this: You've done a good job establishing that floo has been sorting and giving reads with some texture. This doesn't address the glaring issues with the treatment of some of these reads (ex. Progression on me is ????, refusing to acknowledge that Salsabil might be frustrated, mostly disappearing Day 2, first two posts of Day 3+his latest all being extremely disingenuous/outright nonsensical (Again, how the fuck is fairyprincess a super town slot if floo is town and I'm mafia?)

I can try to point you to more direct posts in a second, but the rough part of the wall here is more me commenting on why your reasons for townreading them are incomplete.

[Prism]

Spartan, I'm going to try to make this as readable as possible, which is hard to do by making a huge wall split into a million quotes. I'm going to give my direct reply in

red

instead, that way you can immediately see what I am referencing.

Spoiler: Quote wall

Below I am going to list a few quotes I found to give me a feeling of them being town, whether it was from them trying to scum hunt/sort people, or engage with others.

With the game becoming more serious, I can explain my motives. I switched my RVS vote from Enchant to flow trap because I wanted to see where a conversation would go. flow trap's posting style is lighthearted with a lot of small talk and interactions with other player, as one of the most active users so far (might be the most active in terms of post count). I stated my vote was "partially serious" (40) to avoid seeming suspicious from an apparent OMGUS (as you guessed) and a second (apparently) random vote. I am explaining my intentions now because I would rather have flow trap discuss his/her gameplay or opinions than post joke reactions.

Early on as far as D1 goes but was trying to obtain information from flow trap rather than some reactions that scum may have been fine with and just ridden along, as scumfloo surely wouldn't have been as worried about putting in the effort in, especially to try and divert the game towards a productive direction.

Scum definitely need to put in effort early, you see lurkers getting voted all the time, eg. Frederick this game. I liked their start too, but for the second part: There is again some incentive to actively sort/hunt as scum, and at this point it is clear that at least one of us has done so. For my part, I have done my best to keep us moving repeatedly throughout the game.

What about safebet222?

Chasing up flow trap so as to get the full answer from him, something far more likely to come from town while scum would be less inclined to push for the full answer.

Again, scum have incentive to actually pressure/sort, otherwise we'd both be town here.

Right, as I explained I said it was "partially serious" to avoid seeming scummy / too random.

The concern of coming across scummy and feeling the need to explain why they expressed themselves in a certain way is a bit sus but i can see the reason as to why they are saying it, so NAI for me here.

I see other players passing esotericzoomer for questioning the flow trap wagon for a difference in gameplay philosophy. The problem is he was too insistent in his complaint even though flow trap was at zero chance to actually die. There was no harm in the wagon while he yelled that there was no gain. That makes me think EZ was insincere. Besides he has no reads besides the convenient safebet scumread needed to vote him even though he talks Mafia theory and debates the little town/scumtells other people have pointed out. Scumlean on esotericzoomer currently.

This read met with what was going on at the time, and felt a natural branch out from the previous focus he had put on flow trap up to this point.

I feel like this is the dangerous "mindmeld" aspect since I know you scumread esoteric too. It's not a terrible read but again, not a town beacon.

possible motives for this:
- wild reaction test (most rational motive)
- attention seeking
- perplex other players
- avoid scumreads for posting weird stuff (like the Mafia joke claim) and then not posting weird stuff
- concern over lolhammer (talked about it at the beginning of the game, very disapprovingly)

Again trying to break down reads understand possible reasons for posts and at the very least providing perspectives for townies to view from.

Again, pretty basic imo

Your comments about 365 assume that Enchant and Fredrick are scumpartners. Let's say that Fredrick is town, however, regardless of Enchant's alignment. Then he would just be asking you to read Enchant in a different way that is more logically sound, which is perfectly normal for town to do. I haven't read/thought enough about if it is likely that Enchant and Fredrick are partners.

You said in 228 that you didn't want to give Enchant the benefit of the doubt because you "don't want to get burned again." If I'm reading that as it appears, you don't want to think about Enchant with the proper assumptions because you don't want to be voted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm reading through your ISO and feel like half of your posts are interactions with flow trap. What's your current read on flow trap?

Again coming across very townie, pushing players looking for reads trying to view things from different perspectives to analyse things from all angles rather than just focusing on one view and holding it and pushing it without looking at the alternatives.

Again I am left wondering who you think the scum is here given that we have literally all been doing this-giving perspectives, often both sides, and actively hunting/pushing-this game.

To explain more, just because Enchant is unpredictable. I don't want to risk any hammer while this conversation between quiet and Enchant is still ongoing

At the end of D1 he unvoted enchant to ensure the day didnt end too quickly so that the conversation could continue something i think is only in the interests of town, it could have been so much easier for him to just leave his vote on there, but instead he unvotes.

It's a safe unvote as scum if you're aware they did something terrible and are unlikely to recover from even if you do nothing. I actually did the same later for a much more specific reason (I thought the reads wall was worth considering given the effort, Enchant-scum is incentivized to just shut up and quit). This just adds texture

If he's that desperate, yes.

Enchant appears to have attempted gamethrow in frustrated desperation, that's the important takeaway. Could be legitimate town desperation or a scum Hail Mary.

Again viewing things from both sides, short and simple but at the very least not cancelling any options out completely.

Yeah we've been over this at this point, probably just going to start skipping over these.

1005 came across from a towns perspective as well i could see where he was coming from even if i didnt agree with all the points he made. Town aren't all suppose to agree with the same points as we are looking at things from different perspectives assuming everyone but ourselves is possible mafia.

Reasons to kill esotericzoomer:

Widely townread?

esotericzoomer was more of a "passive townread," in that he was away from scrutiny in the final leg of Day 1. He had his share of scummy lines to justify a vote. Prism or myself would be a better choice for this reason.

Scumreads

His other scumread was Fredrick. There are other players who scumread Fredrick, so killing EZ would be a poor choice. Fredrick is somewhat vindicated by Enchant's town flip. Plus, EZ's 100% confidence about scumreading Enchant would have blocked his chances of pushing a further scumread.

I think there are two plausible reasons then. The two reasons I mentioned above would not be the main reasons to kill, but could be secondary ones.
- Probable power role. I have not read enough into EZ's posts to see where this is implied though.
- Avoid Doctor/Jailkeeper. This is a hybrid reason which combines "widely townread" and/or "scumreads."

Expressed thoughts on the D1 NK something that he didnt have to do, but felt the need to review to express more reads and delve deeper into the ties between players, something that some other players at the time were not willing to do.

I hated the NK spec N1 personally-I think NK spec earlygame tends to just be a wild goose chase when scum frequently shoot for vague PR feelings-but it's really trivial to fake, especially if you spent all night thinking about the kill

1108 pushing sal based of the image conscious nature they presented of themselves.

Is being dismissive really towny or NAI? There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus "the people who scumread me are stupid." I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I took a negative tone because I knew she was more prone to being baited into a fight as you call it, I wouldn't do the same to a calmer player who reasons it out rather than yelling with GIFs and emojis. Sal is baiting me too into a fight, either intentionally or not, by responding to a harsh and serious accusation flippantly. This only makes me want to pressure her further, which I did, consciously accepting the risk of growing bitterness. Is a dismissive and flippant attitude appropriate anymore?

I can see the logic in the reasoning behind their push on the origin from Sals reaction, while Sal had appeared townie day 1, I can see why with several of Sals posts which showed signs of concern about being scum read to be suspicious so I think this route of enquiry makes logical sense.


1202 He provides a full breakdown of Sals posts with other players looking at it from her perspective as well as from the outside rather than just attacking for his opinion upon what she has said. and at the very end of his post its not just ending the situation there say with a vote, he leaves it open for more room for discussion so that the situation can develop and more reads can progress.

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

Townie reaction that I can resonate with, frustration from being palmed off.

I'm going to respond to this section about the Salsabil read as a whole. I concur in thinking Salsabil was defensive, overreactionary, etc. was a decent push. My issue came because town get frustrated/upset/indignant all the time, if floo has chat mafia experience he's definitely seen it, and they openly baited more of the emotion to keep shoving rather than try to differentiate the two. It's fine to take a guess, but floo is baiting something out that's going to happen regardless, rather than actually trying to differentiate it. It has always and remains unclear what floo was looking for if Salsabil was upset/frustrated as scum. He pushed her for playing dismissively/suboptimally and then actively tried to bait out more of it. He knows there's a chance it's town, the concern should be

telling the angry Salsabil and the fearful Salsabil apart

, and he never seriously tried to do so and refused to engage with the slot even when shown to be legitimate.

1223 1225 while reviewing quiets slot, not only does floo provide a breakdown of posts of quiets with descriptions of their thoughts on them, he also breaks down safebets posts from before they switched out to try and gain a more in-depth read on the slot, something that i dont see scum bothering to do, it just strikes me as something townie.

bruh I'm sorry but we've literally all done this this game

1259 expands on his reads of quiet providing more reads and information also doubting himself at the start of the post opening himself up for people to respond and challenge his read of their slot, not being close minded that his read is final and having an open mind ready for change is another aspect that makes me feel very townie with his slot.

1317 1318 his posts here seem methodical and thought out coming across to me as if trying to solve the puzzle, trying to have open discussion with prism going through post by post on his thoughts about the posts and interactions between him and sal on their reasoning for scumreading him.

1548 His final reads on D2, while I may not agree with all of it I can understand his rational behind why he thinks that way and it doesn't come across like his is trying to push a point that has some agenda behind it, more that they are his opinions.

For all of the above, mafia is not "they're scum/town. i am sure. they have no reasons." Scum are fully capable of having texture. We have literally all done this this game. The reads wall he gave absolutely had an agenda, it dodges the most pressing issues and the read on me was transparently a non-read if you review it. His entire progression on me was awful: go back and look at the response he gave to you about me.

So my impression now that I've finished this: You've done a good job establishing that floo has been sorting and giving reads with some texture. This doesn't address the glaring issues with the treatment of some of these reads (ex. Progression on me is ????, refusing to acknowledge that Salsabil might be frustrated, mostly disappearing Day 2, first two posts of Day 3+his latest all being extremely disingenuous/outright nonsensical (Again, how the fuck is fairyprincess a super town slot if floo is town and I'm mafia?)

I can try to point you to more direct posts in a second, but the rough part of the wall here is this is more me commenting on why your reasons for townreading them are incomplete, with no room in the wall for really extrapolating why they're scum.

[Prism]

The double post while I completed that last sentence, F

[Prism]

??? fferyllt how did you lose my vote lmao

[Prism]

Did I unvote in a fever dream? Are you unused to me actually voting the mafia instead of being the scum MVP as town?

[quiet]

Assuming Prism is scum (which I will do since if Prism is town, this game is already lost), I don't see quiet being a partner. Relying on flow trap to provide you the final 5p ELO vote, really? They'd rather keep fairy alive to vote me. Thus I see a >2/3 chance (in other words, more likely than a random choice) that either Spartan or flow is Prism's scumpartner, who is waiting in the background for quiet's 2nd vote on me, then they will have hammer me.

It was my impression that fairy wanted flow trap yesterday. If Prism is scum, flow trap is probably the highest frequency partner; given my suspicion with you yesterday, and how much I trust Prism, I think an elim on Fairy and a push v. you really only makes sense from that perspective. I don't think Spartian fights back to protect your slot quite so hard in that scenario, not today; maybe they make a show of considering changing their mind on you after prism goes hard questioning them today or something. Though obviously biased, I don't think prism + I play like this as partners/it feels like there are better paths to victory for us (that probably involve keeping Fairy alive to push flow trap today).

I'm still really struggling to find the Prism scumread, though, and have been getting a number of flow trap pings today. This makes prism + flow trap hard for me to stomach, but the highest frequency. Prism+spartain could work, but I feel like the better line there is keep fairy alive and hunt flow trap vs. try to hunt you, unless Prism or spartian were deeply concerned about fairy, and thought having less vocal/orginized town voices at ELO would be better than an easier push. I know prism + quiet doesn't work.

Spartan the more likely partner for him and Prism avoiding each other more. Spartan's reads on me feel more pockety, as in unnatural. They would only stated after the Sal push started; I don't see how me writing essays gets Spartan being silent on the floo read to "oh he's my strongest townread." flow trap, he could be an actor, but his progression from the early D1 townread on me to an eventual preference over Prism (even though both sound town), is more natural. Plus Spartan is more likely to get away with a bus. One reason to think Spartan is the town is that he has been more apt at materializing and hard-arguing a push, but he doesn't seem too confident in his push in not voting Fred until later D2 and suspecting quiet for some time.

You credit the spartian/prism as more viable. I find it really, really interesting that you find Spartan's reads "pockety and unnatral". This is something that was raised as a concern, that the read was a little lightweight. Prism was pushing really hard in thread for spartian to justify their TR on you (as prismTown, to try and see if spartian was trying to save their scumbuddy, which seems a tough awkward, or to try and resort; as prismScum, to shade by association, I guess? To try and push them off the read?).

[quiet]

Did I unvote in a fever dream? Are you unused to me actually voting the mafia instead of being the scum MVP as town?

also at this point you are just teasing me, i'm going to have so many emotions if the mod interactions are a play.

like I know it's totally in bounds, but god.

[quiet]

@floo, i'm doing my absolute best to engage in good faith, and consider your positions, and I really appreciate your direct responses, as that's the only way I'll be able to sort you successfully. The next thing I'd like you to comment on is why you entered day3 the way you did, and a brief expansion of divorced from the prism partner equity, what made you gut think flow trap vs. spartan.

[quiet]

I'm still really struggling to find the Prism scumread, though, and have been getting a number of flow trap pings today. This makes prism + flow trap hard for me to stomach, but the highest frequency.

To clarify, I have gotten a number of flow trap town pings. I've really liked how they've approached today, and I think right now, my ultimate conclusion on the flow trap slot is that our chaos god is an ever so slightly benevolent one, but it's chaos so my level of certainty here is trash.

[Prism]

I really, really liked floo day1. I was against eliminating floo yesterday, for basically the same reason you have pulled out in that review of their play; their posts throughout the game give almost every appearance of being from someone who wanted to solve the game, and I was really hoping I'd see something today to help support that feeling. But basically, as it stands, finding an innocent floo means finding a guilty prism. And here's where the case on floo starts to sour a bit.

My suspicion of floo mostly comes from what they are not posting, and not responding to. It comes from a place of me really struggling to TR someone who won't engage and casually throw out reads, or some kind of flash impression take.

I am deeply concerned about your progression on floo here.

Day 2 you felt my points on the floo-Salsabil push compelling. You acknowledged that the curated posts weren't actually that town. You expressed the willingness to follow me, but when push came to shove went for the AFK voter in Frederick.

Today you've been very adamant that at some point you'll vote floo, which is great, but that's not really what I'm worried about.

Would you like me too? Frankly, I find copying and pasting between threads challenging, I think meta reads are generally good ancillary evidence, but not case building in of themselves. I’ve reviewed some games from you and I reviewed what was available from Salsa in the context of a floo read; I took a quick look at floo, but was planning to do so much more before I voted tmmrw, just wanted to see if they would engage in a more causal chat with me first. I also did the Flow Trap alternate form metaread of the game they linked (and was very proud to determine who they were despite our chaos god not telling me their alt’s name. It was very exciting.)

My concern here is that you've apparently done a lot of meta research, found very good reasons to townread me with it, and instead it's in this wall about why I'm town for mostly tonal reasons to do with my intensity, anxiety, friendship/rivalry with ffery, etc. You're not wrong but this isn't even trying to really convince anyone that I'm town, these are super subjective. With the meta case there are

extremely concrete

reasons for why I'm town that are objective, which you've apparently reviewed but chosen not to present except as secondary to the more emotional appeal.

You've given good reads for the most part and been spot on at times but there are real problems with your positioning around floo and how you've approached the day, and it's not okay that I handwaive it just because you've presented good analytical ability with no obvious ulterior motive, when the ulterior motive for you would just be to never get voted rather than trying too hard to frame someone else.

I appreciate the response about the 12-24 hours but it's unclear how legitimate it is and if speeding it up in wake of no response would be a good idea anyway, while speeding the game up is absolutely good for you as scum if you're bussing.

[quiet]

actually, @floo, given that from your perspective it is absolutely guaranteed that prism is scum...why aren't you voting the slot?

am I wrong that any combination where both you and prism are town = game is over? Which basically means voting Prism here doesn't change anything?

Are you really going to search for an elim on another slot? If so, which one? I can't see that being +EV

[Prism]

also at this point you are just teasing me, i'm going to have so many emotions if the mod interactions are a play.

like I know it's totally in bounds, but god.

I mean, given the concrete reads I've given this game and the concrete flips, what do you think?

I can go through the history behind me/ffery if someone wants but that's not really the concern here imo.

[Prism]

To clarify, I have gotten a number of flow trap town pings. I've really liked how they've approached today, and I think right now, my ultimate conclusion on the flow trap slot is that our chaos god is an ever so slightly benevolent one, but it's chaos so my level of certainty here is trash.

Can you be more specific here? It looks like you understood Spartan's position quite well.

It's not that I disagree, to be clear.

[fferyllt]

Votecount fixed!

[Prism]

You've also asked me about several things this day that I both like, JUST talked about and was already trying to dialogue with you about, which I get that it's a lot to keep track of but make me question your sincerity in how much you actually value my opinion as opposed to just going through the motions of *~teamwork~*

See here's the thing about that, though, is I'd expect them to be pushing you at this point if that was the case. Like, I'd expect the floo vs. Prism thing to have emerged at this point, and it really hasn't. Is my intuition way off there?

Like in a townSpartian world where they're trying to get spartian to vote you, doesn't someone, anyone, jump on board my paranoia trip?

We got floo coming in with the plausable shade, but that feels soft compared to what could have happened earlier today to support townSpartian's suspicion on you, to fuel the fire of a floo vs Prism spartian re-enact 300 defend floo from an army of Prisms type situation.

I lean that Spartan is scum right now over flow trap, if you're wondering.

It's hard for me vs. floo to emerge when floo just posted for the first time and I've spent the day checking into the other 3 slots first.

I also disagree on flow trap/Spartan, which is part of why I'm voting. Spartan was around yesterday explicitly for the possibility of flipping to flow trap. Just doesn't post and goes to bed as scum/scum.

@prism when you pick up, I'd be curious for your assessment on a spartan/floo team. It seems decently in play to me, I do think it's feasable that Spartan TRs a scumbuddy, especially as they have accused both me and you of doing the same.

There was something else earlier that gave me the same feeling that I'll quote if I find but like ???

[quiet]

My concern here is that you've apparently done a lot of meta research, found very good reasons to townread me with it, and instead it's in this wall about why I'm town for mostly tonal reasons to do with my intensity, anxiety, friendship/rivalry with ffery, etc. You're not wrong but this isn't even trying to really convince anyone that I'm town, these are super subjective. With the meta case there are extremely concrete reasons for why I'm town that are objective, which you've apparently reviewed but chosen not to present except as secondary to the more emotional appeal.

You've given good reads for the most part and been spot on at times but there are real problems with your positioning around floo and how you've approached the day, and it's not okay that I handwaive it just because you've presented good analytical ability with no obvious ulterior motive, when the ulterior motive for you would just be to never get voted rather than trying too hard to frame someone else.

I appreciate the response about the 12-24 hours but it's unclear how legitimate it is and if speeding it up in wake of no response would be a good idea anyway, while speeding the game up is absolutely good for you as scum if you're bussing.

Prism, stop poking at me.
I'm convinced that you are town. Reading up on your meta was a part of convincing me, but that mostly insofar as verifying that what you were saying about your meta was truthful, and coming from a town place, as well as trying to determine if you had super obvious differences in your scumgames. The crux of my read on you has to do with the fact that I'm sitting here, just, refusing to beleive that you as a player, given my mostly TONAL metareads on you and your standards for what play should look like, as well as your strong opinions on playing the town cohesion game and refusing to take lead as town, then watching your instincts take over as you push an idea you get passionate about, then watching you try to reign yourself back in, all while @ing the mod....I don't think you take this line as scum. It would be an incredibly convincing line as scum, and fuck it if it is a tonal/emotional read, I think it's a good one. I'm not going to go so far as to say that it would go against your honor to do something like this, but I think the line you've taken happens a lot more as town than as scum. My biggest question mark is why you aren't dead in a flooScum world. This kind of stuff isn't the kind of stuff you cite and try to convince others of. Maybe you are correct, and I should have been trying to provide more substantiative, evidence based reads on everyone, as that would be more positive for town, but I guess I took the egocentric perspective of trying not to fuck up the choice myself and solve the game as best as possible while also doing my best to engage. I believe it's important to provide context to help people sort you as town or as scum, it's what I've been asking of floo recently, and I really hope i've done that enough for myself.

Also, as scum, why in the universe are you poking at me right now? Just let me townread you into my own oblivion. You've been poking me most of the game. Doing it a couple times to sell it makes sense, doing it over and over again? Nah. Not scummy imo. My metareads, as I previously mentioned, are mostly to re-enforce what is claimed and seen in the game, not something I usually take notes on. It's the kind of curiosity thing I do when I'm on my phone before going to bed; just clicking over to someone's profile, and reading through a game or two, filtering down, trying to see if something jumps out at me. If it's me + floo, then I need to worry about tommorow; I know for a fact it isn't me + floo, and couldn't care less about my positioning towards that slot at the moment; I'm trying not to lose today, right now, when the day ends.

As for the whole 12 hour rush vote thing as a scumslip that I backed off of?

Prism, one wrong vote from me and the game is over. I'm never voting in 12 hours there, ever, for any reason. I wanted you to stop voting for 12-24 hours to give Spartian and floo time to chime in. Obviously my concern didn't really matter too much, as they've now been voted for much of that time, but from my perspective, hearing from them first was +EV.

If floo literally didn't post in that time, I'd concider jumping on board. Floo posted. I have until the end of the day to lose the game with my vote. I'll wait until I have as much info as possible.

yes yes something something retroactive logic, but prism, if I'm as halfway decent as you seem to believe, why would I slip like that? Why wouldn't I just ride it out, wait for the time to tick over a bit? I don't think the cost of making you even more suspicious would be worth the accelerated day, and the attention it would bring to me, assuming I'm trying to bus here. Also, wouldn't my positioning on floo be way different?

I know in my head, I should be happy that my world has now shrunk to sorting you vs. floo, given how much I TR you. I don't feel any better. This is my first game that I've been alive for ELO in. I do not like it one bit.

[quiet]

like tldr: I meta for myself, I don't try to sell other people on my metareads (or really try to sell people on my reads at all. Maybe I should start doing that.)

[quiet]

I mean, given the concrete reads I've given this game and the concrete flips, what do you think?

I can go through the history behind me/ffery if someone wants but that's not really the concern here imo.

Frankly, I think your concrete reads are the thing YOU could most easily fake as scum, and the ffery interactions would be considerably harder. That's just my take, and why I've been focusing there. I'm sure there's enough mechanical info for me to dig into at this point to find places where you could have made different plays as scum that would have been more +EV that help mechanically support that read (mostly around yesterday's NK and flips), but I've been trying to focus on sorting between the three other slots. You've already gone into the history a bit, and that's factored into my current read.

[Prism]

Prism, stop poking at me.

I mean, respectfully, no, I'm essentially a forced NK and do not get to do this tomorrow and have instead just been AFK going "I guess it's Spartan" even though Spartan's hard defense Day 2 and openly begging me not to vote floo is really questionable as scum over something more in between.

The entire next section is nice for giving me more context on the meta, and you're again

not wrong

that my emotions are legitimate and town, but again you're not actually tracking or giving much judgement on my reads at all. The one time I remember you clearly tagging on you walked it back without any new development/clear point of revisitation? This is just a glaring blindspot I feel like you had to have evaluated

at some point

even if not now

yes yes something something retroactive logic, but prism, if I'm as halfway decent as you seem to believe, why would I slip like that? Why wouldn't I just ride it out, wait for the time to tick over a bit? I don't think the cost of making you even more suspicious would be worth the accelerated day, and the attention it would bring to me, assuming I'm trying to bus here. Also, wouldn't my positioning on floo be way different?

I understand that as town you're saying you weren't going to actually vote in 12-24 hours. As scum though it's not you "slipping" or not being "halfway decent", it would be you rushing the game to your benefit. It's absolutely fine to draw attention to yourself in a bus, especially when you can blitz if someone else makes the opposite vote.

I don't get your how positioning on floo differs as mafia here in your last sentence. You angled like you were willing to go on me with them yesterday and found my point compelling but at some point that was just

no longer true

[Prism]

Frankly, I think your concrete reads are the thing YOU could most easily fake as scum, and the ffery interactions would be considerably harder.

I mean this again isn't

wrong

, but with the assistance of knowing what I am already this just becomes so much easier to see and handwaive off.

I don't think you're actually scum over Spartan but you need to justify your Day 2 and your progression on me/floo, if not now than tomorrow.