Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[Prism]

I think I've made my point on quiet and it's time to circle back to flow.

flow trap-do you have the rest of your wall? What do you feel you need from me?

[quiet]

You've also asked me about several things this day that I both like, JUST talked about and was already trying to dialogue with you about, which I get that it's a lot to keep track of but make me question your sincerity in how much you actually value my opinion as opposed to just going through the motions of *~teamwork~*

I don't know how to respond to this. I don't exactly see how the first quote you pulled fits into that framework of me not valuing your opinion/bringing things up that you were trting to dialog with? I was responding to you, mostly to try to clarify my own takes. I promise I have been reading and paying attention.

Actually, I'm really lost on this whole post. I asked the question about flow trap/spartian on 1785, you responded on 1799, I asked...
when was I ignoring your points? Is me trying to clarify

i'm just lost on this one. I trust your slot, so asking you questions about the state of the game is me trying to sort {spartian, floo, flow trap}.

[quiet]

I don't get your how positioning on floo differs as mafia here in your last sentence. You angled like you were willing to go on me with them yesterday and found my point compelling but at some point that was just no longer true

this is very fair. It was no longer true when I decided that I wanted to give floo another day to show up as town (they have not, from my perspective), and because following spartian might help me sort them. If Fred flips scum there, game changes considerably.

[quiet]

Can you be more specific here? It looks like you understood Spartan's position quite well.

Do you want me to clarify my read on Flow Trap?

And you lost me with the "you understood Spartan's position quite well" bit, not sure what that's in reference to.

sorry

[quiet]

I'm essentially a forced NK and do not get to do this tomorrow and have instead just been AFK going "I guess it's Spartan" even though Spartan's hard defense Day 2 and openly begging me not to vote floo is really questionable as scum over something more in between.

I'll stop spamposting, but yeah, this is a fair point and not really something I've been thinking about. Despite my TR on you, even right this second, I've got the voice screaming in my head that there's a chance i'm just incredibly deep in the pocket. I've strictly been focused on surviving today. I'm not thinking about upcoming 3 person elo.

Maybe I need to stop engaging with floo, and start focusing on providing reads on flow trap and spartian. I'll take a break, then go try to do that.

[quiet]

sorry for getting annoyed, I wasn't really thinking.

[Prism]

I don't know how to respond to this. I don't exactly see how the first quote you pulled fits into that framework of me not valuing your opinion/bringing things up that you were trting to dialog with? I was responding to you, mostly to try to clarify my own takes. I promise I have been reading and paying attention.

Actually, I'm really lost on this whole post. I asked the question about flow trap/spartian on 1785, you responded on 1799, I asked...
when was I ignoring your points? Is me trying to clarify

i'm just lost on this one. I trust your slot, so asking you questions about the state of the game is me trying to sort {spartian, floo, flow trap}.

I definitely out of order on this one, you're right that the second post was actually my response rather than the one before. 1717 was the other post I talked about it but it was definitely tucked away in a much larger post.

I'm not really sure what I was smoking with the post ordering so that's my fault, and yeah 1717 is a lot more tucked away and I didn't give the reasoning immediately beforehand like I thought I did. Need to actually reread what I'm quoting rather than remembering where I put what.

I felt I had been talking about a Spartan/flow trap team being unlikely a lot as you considered it I had just mentioned it and touched on it a few hours before, and it's why I cut in again with eliminating that team specifically later.

What a mess, that's on me.

I know there was one other time I felt this way which I'll try to find later.

[Prism]

Can you be more specific here? It looks like you understood Spartan's position quite well.

Do you want me to clarify my read on Flow Trap?

Yeah, that'd be nice, but I've been super demanding and need to chill. I've made my point that I think your progressions are worth digging more into. You're not the vote today in any case.

Like even if you missed things I said then asked about them later, this is definitely happens as town and doesn't mean you're not engaging with me in good faith.

And you lost me with the "you understood Spartan's position quite well" bit, not sure what that's in reference to.

re: Spartan's wall on floo, it doesn't mean you have to townread Spartan over flow trap but it's why I want you to be more specific.

[Prism]

My grammar is going to shit, my memory is shit and I'm not even reading to make sure my posts said what I thought they did, good hint that it's time to *~step away from the keyboard~*

Posts like 1872 are/were transparently halfassed and give the impression floo isn't even trying, the wall was appealing to me over any specific player of the three, and I just do not like that idea that he is counting on 3 way given how we're all just like "IDK guess it's Spartan he defended floo" but pummeling you for asking me about something or why you haven't objectively argued for me being town when objectivity isn't the source of the read to begin with is not the answer

[Prism]

So I'm sorry too, is what I'm saying. I am scared of you, yes. This was a little bit insane. Hug. Reset. Circle back later.

[Prism]

Aight, I'm back around. If you're around quiet I'm down to hear more about your flow trap read or if you want to talk more specifically about the evolution of your thinking on floo EoD, I'll try and dig back too.

[Prism]

So being more specific, I'm asking what changed between 1374 and 1437 here.

Vote order as of right this second is:
floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism

[re: Prism case on floo] I think this is fairly compelling to me. The other thing that pinged me about floo was that his original case on Salsabill came after I raised a similar concern in a MUCH quieter way. It would be a good place for scum to jump on a wagon I’d started, and maybe where floo derived his “solution” from....[rest of post].

@Prism I'm willing to vote floo today, I just don't feel great about it. But you don't feel great about Spartian. If we miss on floo, do you think we hit on Spartian tmmrw? Or do I need to think even harder.

Later posts make some reference to Frederick being better/maybe there not being scum in floo and Spartan at all, but I can't find anything about why floo specifically got more town. Frederick was not a terrible vote except with the power of hindsight, but you were a big part of why I didn't get my choice of floo, and I want to understand why you shifted.

[Prism]

Floo: Salsa scumread was light, careful play could be scummy, but Spartian strong TR and the well argued points they have made make me doubt a bit. This slot also sketches me the fuck out, and is where I vote if Fred goes nowhere.

Mmmmmm, why did the Spartan TR affect this so much?

[quiet]

I'm back for a sec! and no worries, your poke at me makes a lot more sense with the context you've given, ty for clarifying. I didn't/don't mind notes on my progression, as I actually agree that it's not great necessarily, and that I havn't really been practicing what I preach in terms of consistently trying to be transparent and open with my reads so others can sort me, and doubly so today, where I've been almost completely focused on making sure that the game doesn't end today vs. trying to make sure the game can be won tmmrw. I was feeling much worse when I was under the impression that you thought I wasn't communicating in good faith, especially given how hard I've been trying to do so with Spartian and floo.

I think what I've realized from this is that most of my communication/work/effort/attention has been going into reading carefully and responding to floo and spartian. I've been working as hard as I can to be open and to communicate in good faith with those slots, as they are my strongest suspicions (well, floo is strongest, and spartan is the slot I most need to sort in relation to floo today), and since you sit so firmly in the "town" bucket for me, I probably was not affording your posts the same curtesy, though I have been reading them. We can move on from this for now, just ping me if there's anything you wanted to chat about.

I'll move point by point through your questions on my reads, and try to provide a little more clarity about how I see the game rn, what my general strategy towards today has been, and any other progression notes I can give.

[flow trap]

I think I've made my point on quiet and it's time to circle back to flow.

flow trap-do you have the rest of your wall? What do you feel you need from me?

No, I almost have part 5 out of 7 done

Since there is a 99.9% chance that it is between you & Floo, I completely expect a Quiet-Flow-Spartan F3, so how would you rank us from most to least suspicious?

[flow trap]

I have a headache, so I'll see how long I can stand

[quiet]

I don't think there is anything specifically about floo that made me feel like they got more town, and resulted in me not wanting to vote them yesterday vs. Fred.

"floo->spartian/fred->flow->fairy->prism" was my reads before/at the start of the wagons yesterday. The biggest reason for me starting to dislike floo, as previously discussed, was that despite liking floo early in the game, their caution with their posts, my growing strong TR on fairy, and seeing the use of my language + suspicion + not liking their metacase on salsa sort of all piled up into a feeling that the slot could be scum, not to mention your own SR, which did directly factor in to my own. The things from the quote you pulled.

However, I don't think I was ever as far into SR teratory as you were on day2. You didn't end up convincing Fairy; and for me, while the stuff I brought up in the quote you pulled was a compelling enough reason to forever remove them from my very town bucket, I wasn't totally sold that we would hit there.

What got me off the slot was spartan's practically begging to not flip there, to give floo another day to show up. Frankly, I think that in a town!Floo world, town!Floo is capable of showing up today and townspewing, in showing up and sorting themselves. For all that I disliked and was pinged by the salsa case, especially in light of the replace, if you recall, I was really, really struggling to find scum yesterday. I TRed pretty much everyone for ages this game, because everyone this game has made some strong +town plays, except for Enchant (sorry friend RIP) and Fred.

And as I said at the start of the day, I didn't want to vote Fred (at least early in the day), because Fred felt like LHF. I wanted to explore other slots. Floo was that slot, and maybe in retrospect I should have stuck to it, voted along with you. But I wasn't sure about it. I didn't feel confident about the read.

Then spartan comes in super hot, pushes hard on Fred, calls me all kinds of scummy for not being willing to vote fred (are you trying to protect your scumpartner?), and begs to give Floo another day. And here's the thing: I couldn't sort Fred, no way. It's just null to me. I would love to know if people have a lurker sort, cause I sure as hell do not.

So my choices were: Elim Floo, which is the only slot I have anything close to a SR on, but which I am not confident in, and which I think I have a chance of being able to sort tmmrw, especially in the context of flips,

or elim Fred, which is a slot I have zero read on, a slot that will likely give me nothing the next day, and a slot that gives me a relatively significant amount of info (or so I hoped) on Spartan, which is a slot I am ALSO struggling to sort, and associatives with floo. If you had died, I'm pushing floo 100% of the time, unless floo shows the hell up, which they really havn't today from my perspective.

The extra thing about spartan is I don't think they beg to save their scumpartner exactly like they did. I don't know. I'm still trying to sort out that exact read.

To the best of my memory, that's the reason I made the choices I did yesterday. I think I mentioned some of this; I know I was engaging a high amount with spartan towards the end of that day.

[flow trap]

calls me all kinds of scummy for not being willing to vote fred (are you trying to protect your scumpartner?)

I made this point on part 5 of my wall, that gives me confidence on that point

[quiet]

Mmmmmm, why did the Spartan TR affect this so much?

Pre the spartan hard request to "please don't vote floo today, I want them in the game tmmrw"

which, by the way
@spartan, did you get what you wanted out of floo today? What did you want them in the game for?

I had floo+spartan as high in partner equity. This made me doubt it, and generally made me feel like something was wrong with my floo read, and therefore my read of the game.

[Prism]

I'm back for a sec! and no worries, your poke at me makes a lot more sense with the context you've given, ty for clarifying. I didn't/don't mind notes on my progression, as I actually agree that it's not great necessarily, and that I havn't really been practicing what I preach in terms of consistently trying to be transparent and open with my reads so others can sort me, and doubly so today, where I've been almost completely focused on making sure that the game doesn't end today vs. trying to make sure the game can be won tmmrw. I was feeling much worse when I was under the impression that you thought I wasn't communicating in good faith, especially given how hard I've been trying to do so with Spartian and floo.

I think what I've realized from this is that most of my communication/work/effort/attention has been going into reading carefully and responding to floo and spartian. I've been working as hard as I can to be open and to communicate in good faith with those slots, as they are my strongest suspicions (well, floo is strongest, and spartan is the slot I most need to sort in relation to floo today), and since you sit so firmly in the "town" bucket for me, I probably was not affording your posts the same curtesy, though I have been reading them. We can move on from this for now, just ping me if there's anything you wanted to chat about.

I'll move point by point through your questions on my reads, and try to provide a little more clarity about how I see the game rn, what my general strategy towards today has been, and any other progression notes I can give.

I mean yeah, not focusing on me as much is completely reasonable given where you're at, and even if you're not paying as much attention that...makes total sense and doesn't mean that you're being insincere or facetious by asking about something you missed. You can care about what I think in general, and take specific interest in one topic, but not carefully pore over my word like it's the gospel. It's also just annoying to have to divert energy sorting towards energy defending yourself to begin with.

I definitely think I overstepped the bounds of "due diligence on reads" into paranoid foil territory

[flow trap]

Ok, headache won, Spartan do tha thing

[Prism]

Since there is a 99.9% chance that it is between you & Floo, I completely expect a Quiet-Flow-Spartan F3, so how would you rank us from most to least suspicious?

1. Spartan
2. flow trap
3. quiet

I think you're more up in the air than I'd like. Your analysis today has been good but is still lacking in clear conclusions/final arguments other than "leaning me" which in light of yesterday does not give me great confidence.

There's more reason to believe Spartan is scum, I definitely asked for him to work backwards to justify the floo TR but it's just...not persuasive given that we've all given that same quality of analysis by this point, with much clearer intentions. He needs to do so, so much more here to move up. No scum team ever lines up cleanly-even the real one-but I agree with quiet that harddefending floo there-without even giving reasoning-is really weird to do over something more lukewarm.

quiet is strong and capable of faking reads/textured analysis, but like...other than pulling off of floo yesterday there just really isn't any reason I can see to scumread this slot. If he sat there and just gave analysis 24/7, hoped to not get voted, and the only time he was opportunistic at all was EoD yesterday, then okay. I'm not really sure what else to do here other than make him show his work.

[Prism]

Like there are things about quiet that have made me anxious, like when I remembered the 12-24 hour comment and went down the rabbit hole, or not going into depth on the meta, but calling them singularly scum-motivated is a stretch. In an ideal world yeah, he sells other slots on me using more objective claims if he has the means/belief, but that's not the aspects he feels the most strongly about, and that's been shown repeatedly throughout the game, or why he had the read to begin with, so of course he's not going to instantly go to that.

[quiet]

I'm probably going to be a tiny bit more brief on my flow trap read, as I'm fading pretty fast at this point.
I'm going to discard all solves with Prism, as I lose the game today at this point if Prism is scum. Sorry, people.

floo+flow trap
floo+spartan

so basically, it's flow trap v. spartan tmmrw fmpov.

the most positive thing about spartan: my incredulity that scum hard defends scum they way spartan did yesterday, how goddamn guilty I feel whenever I sus them, and I don't think anyone doubts that at least day1, day2 they put in a ton of +town effort.
the most negative thing about spartan: if floo flips red, defense of floo has clear scum utility. And life reasons suck, so I don't want to lean into this, this feels really bad, but like, kinda has to be said? There is a lot of utility in not being present much today. I know, I'm a shit person for having that as a reason, but there is utility in avoiding the thread when there's so little room to misplay as scum. It's the same argument as the Fred elim.

most positive thing about flow trap: This is another one of my stupid meta tone reads, but here it goes.
Flow trap consistently goes beyond what would be necessary to fake. One partner table? Sure, okay, could see that being faked. Two of them? Each with some actually quite insightful attached reads on players? I don't think flow trap is making up their progression or retroactively adding in meaning with their wall posts, and they are still posting them. I do feel like flow trap is gamesolving. I think that on average, while flow trap is totally capable of being chaotic as either alignment, it's hard to do this kind of gleeful chaos as consistant and calmly as they have for this long as scum.

most negative things about flow trap: flow trap + floo both poked at salsaFairy. flow trap makes the better partner imo. chaos can be good cover, but again, it's playstyle, doesn't feel like an affectation.

There was nothing about spartan's long post today I didn't like. I tried to engage with them in good faith. I've tried to do the same with floo and flow trap, too.

When it comes down to it, right now I feel like I lean flow trap town because of how they have showed up today, while floo and spartan have not as much. And maybe this is an unfair read, and I need to re-calibrate, but that's kind of where it's coming from.

sorry spartan, please be easy on me. And seriously, I hope things are working out for you irl, and I'm in no way married to this read, I'm trying to sort it out as best I can.

[quiet]

the thing I want to start considering:
what are the paths to win the game for various teams, and how could they have accomplished it better with different mechanical actions.

like that's a more objective, logical approach to this game, maybe more in line with what prism is looking for.

I think I'm just not at the point where I feel...good about my reads from a mechanical/who pressured whom when and for what reason type perspective, and certainly not confident enough to try and convince others of them.

like I know I've said this, but i'm new at this. This game is 100% going to change how I play mafia a little; I need to determine more objective metrics, and try to sell people on my reads; I need to take more responsibility for winning the game, not just...not throwing it. I have a grand total of 1 completed game, where I got murdered night 2? 3? It's been a jarring experience being seen as threatening; people have accused me of playing or being scummy as a player, but not...like...paranoia inducing.