TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[implosion]

15

There are 15 perfect matchings of the complete graph K₆ and 15 rooted binary trees with four labeled leaves, both of these being among the types of object counted by double factorials. With only two exceptions, all prime quadruplets enclose a multiple of 15, with 15 itself being enclosed by the quadruplet (11, 13, 17, 19).

Vote Count 1.15

the worst

(6): jjh927, Winter Flakes, Titus, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, Hopkirk, innocentvillager

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, the worst

Hopkirk

(2): Almost50, AGar

Xtoxm

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting

(1): Luca Blight

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to eliminate. Deadline is set for 11:00 AM PST on February 12, in (expired on 2021-02-12 15:00:00).

the worst has requested replacement; searching for a replacement.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: dgb

[Cephrir]

I'm gonna beat you up

[OkaPoka]

ducky rep'd out

[jjh927]

Then his replacement can come into the game with a wagon

[AGar]

@AGar:


This is what she said: "Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV. "

Does that make sense to you?

It does. What doesn't make sense is how you seemingly distorted it in 1842, or I'm misreading what your post intended.

Endorsing what Titus is saying right now as a good general rule in mafia. Think about it.

Nah. It's a relic of a time past when scum didn't have daytalk as a regular thing and is largely a pointless showy thing. Doubly so for team mafia.

ducky rep'd out

You think it's AI?

[Hopkirk]

dgb if we are both town then who is scum? im scumsiding with scum!dunnstral and scum!okapoka who are trying to deflect away from scum!LLD? is that the narrative that makes the most sense for you rn (if im town)?

I misunderstood Ramcius. He said that if you being an argument with "if we are both town" then you have to convince me that you're town first, because I scumread you.

okay so it has nothing to do with okapoka? ok yeah that felt a little random to me

uhh not gonna towncase myself or anything lol? but one reason im town is because i literally can't stand posting in main thread as scum but idk how i would be playing here in this very specific game as scum honestly :/

if im scum i definitely cannot keep this kind of solving/energy up organically for long unless i want to wreck my mental health (which i don't!) so ill probably give myself away as scum eventually

now this is the kind of selfmeta that makes me locktown someone

@Hopkirk are you still around or did I miss you

i hope you missed me. it'd have hurt my feelings if you didn't

VOTE: Dunnstral

VOTE: Dunnstral

I'm going to need an explanation for these.

Dann and hopkirk suddenly casing me as scum is very conveniently timed.

Dann asserting that I am on the sidelines for lld/hercule is incorrect.

Again, saying I'm fencesitty is wrong

'casing' is a strong word for the thoughts i threw out on you, especially when by the end of the day i was leaning towards there being multiple scum pushing you
what did you think of my casing more specifically?

Also I haven't really deflected away from lld because I'm not 100% that she's town over scum trying to pocket me

But me asking for someone to explain why lld is being pushed is a big deal because there is very little reason why lld is being pushed

That's not the case for hercule, which could be explained, and can still go either way

LLD can go either way but there's no explanation for why she's scum here, and me asking for explanations is seen as defending her

dann/ceph were both pushing hercule
then ceph jumped on A50s shitpush of me and Dann joined in with a naked vote that he later explained buried in an iso as basically 'i don't have as many townvibes as i want' which doesn't gel with the timing of the vote being with the A50/me conflict that he didn't comment on specifically
now they're both pushing Dunn with cases that came as basically the same time

both of their votes/pushes on me were the worst ones. oka/agar are in a similar state of their agreement with those pushes being bad

this feels like trying to save a partner

VOTE: LLD

This is a good post, but you lose me when you go to voting lld

Is lld the one doing something scummy here? no, and there's no reason to think they're specifically protecting lld other than her being wagoned right now (which there's also no explanation for)

Wouldn't it make more sense for you to directly vote the people who are doing something scummy? Scum can act scummy around town too

vibestate

LLD feels more like scum from the state of the game than anything else. i didn't like her early game entry, the ego stuff felt forced/off a bit, especially the long post about how she was one of the best scumplayers on site. felt like a good vote especially when my townreads were agreeing with it (DBG/Mastina/Hercule especially when i joined). then the wagon stalled for ages, attracted like four counterwagons, and pretty much all of my stronger townreads are pushing it as of where i'm up to whereas people i don't like are pushing for all of the counterwagons. LLD's stuff hasn't gotten obvscum, and i kind of liked some of the later ATE stuff where she was talking about avoiding the thread as that feels like a town mindset to me for obvious reasons, but the stuff surrounding her wagon makes me feel like either she's scum or the scum want to keep her alive. alternatively my reads are garbage and i'm being hard pocketed, but i'm clearly too good for that to work

i'm going to look at the slots like Dann/Ceph pushing weirdly afterwards yeah, but i wasn't really feeling up to isoing people last time i was around because the stuff in the thread was annoying me and i needed some distance

[Dunnstral]

I'm not a fan of the wagon on The worst, I think I'd rather LLD over that. LLD why does it feel hard to work with you?

I still think DGB is playing way different from last game and also looks scummy here.

[Dunnstral]

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

[Hopkirk]

the case for scum!LLD, to me, is:

1. enters the thread with sole purpose of discrediting mastina and "eliminate players in inverse order of her preference"

2. then decides to back up this idea by saying just that my entrance was garbage

3. re-iterates that my entrance was garbage multiple times in order to get votes on me

4. rallies the thread to vote me, still with no evidence

(4.5?) big ego post about their scumgame

5. when i finally respond to her like, "ok, enough's enough let's talk" she's just like "nah lol you're caught scum"

6. when i'm like "ok well that's bullshit" she's like "lmaoooo such a scum reaction now my vote is, like, even more justified"

7. when a counterwagon forms on her, she AtEs and leaves the thread (also like, can't tell if she's mad that more people aren't voting me despite her not seeming to be sure or just mad that she's being voted)

i'm aware this is a slightly humorously uncharitable framing of her game but it also feels like a somewhat reasonable one

1-4 agree with to an extent and 4.5 disliked
5-6 i've seen from town!LLD & 7 is making me have second thoughts

the case for scum!LLD, to me, is:

1. enters the thread with sole purpose of discrediting mastina and "eliminate players in inverse order of her preference"

2. then decides to back up this idea by saying just that my entrance was garbage

3. re-iterates that my entrance was garbage multiple times in order to get votes on me

4. rallies the thread to vote me, still with no evidence

(4.5?) big ego post about their scumgame

5. when i finally respond to her like, "ok, enough's enough let's talk" she's just like "nah lol you're caught scum"

6. when i'm like "ok well that's bullshit" she's like "lmaoooo such a scum reaction now my vote is, like, even more justified"

7. when a counterwagon forms on her, she AtEs and leaves the thread (also like, can't tell if she's mad that more people aren't voting me despite her not seeming to be sure or just mad that she's being voted)

i'm aware this is a slightly humorously uncharitable framing of her game but it also feels like a somewhat reasonable one

1 is definitely not a scumtell. 2 also sounds like a pretty ordinary thing to do. you are currently townreading mastina for doing 4, and 4.5 is something you also have done. 5 and 6 sound like what dgb is doing too. multiple people have already said they think 7 is town indicative.

most of this i don't really see as connected to a scum agenda either and you haven't really done so here -- you've only summarized events

how did you read her for 4.5/the long rant? i disliked it and your treatment of it here 'you've done it too' really lacks any kind of nauance. no, herc didn't post anything resembling that rant. he posted a self-meta thing, but that's different on context and content, and it's ridiculously surface level to say they're the same. the content made me TR herc's and SR LLD's because herc's felt like it was coming from a genuine place and LLD's felt more forced. i want to hear more about how these and the vibes from them are the same from you because i hard disagree

[Hopkirk]

My LLD scumread is not in a vacuum.

I know I am terse, and I don't usually wall post. So let me try a little harder to convince you all.

• You can see in the posts above (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12572656), in real time, how I viewed LLD's blustery game start totally discrediting mastina as scummy. It could have been good-natured ribbing, which I considered, but LLD came in like a sledgehammer. LLD made a full series of posts trying to de-fang mastina's future scumhunting. I detected a hint of trying to demoralize her. LLD tends to be over the top, but this was over the top even for her:
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559295
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559296
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559301
  These posts are LLD pre-emptively, and aggressively neutralizing mastina.

• If I had any doubt that LLD wanted to neutralize mastina, these doubts vanished when LLD literally voted hercule to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak. Then LLD makes a case on hercule after deciding that using mastina as an
  absolute compass
  to solve the game (even if in reverse). At the time of LLD's case, I wasn't sure about hercule's entry post, she might have had a point, but later I began to town read hercule and I saw it from a different perspective.

• Now, I know I'm not going to convince anyone but myself with how I found LLD's scum ego post scummy, but to be transparent in my thinking, I found it scummy in the context of the neutralization of mastina, and based on mastina's supposed bad reads, manufacturing a case on hercule off the cuff. It was a huge wall of manipulation that didn't come from a townie mindset.

• I found the rage/anger/AtE to be hollow and insincere (that's a matter of personal interpretation, I realize). I usually respond to AtE, I am one of the site's biggest sucker for AtE. So, AtE has to be pretty bad not to move me. LLD's AtE left me completely cold, which is astonishing.

• Now she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

you think LLD!scum lets her scum partners bail her out and not try and bail herself out? @dgb???

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

hopkirk can you run me by you reasons for voting LLD quickly?

i skimmed your ISO but... i'm not really seeing any specifics about why you don't like her? It's all kinda vague?

The more recent vote on her felt better but was also more based on Dann/Ceph's behavior rather than her own? i don't really get voting her on that because it's assuming those 3 are teamed which feels like a bad hole to fall into

[Hopkirk]

why does pressing submit instead of preview just post your quotes

My LLD scumread is not in a vacuum.

I know I am terse, and I don't usually wall post. So let me try a little harder to convince you all.

• You can see in the posts above (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12572656), in real time, how I viewed LLD's blustery game start totally discrediting mastina as scummy. It could have been good-natured ribbing, which I considered, but LLD came in like a sledgehammer. LLD made a full series of posts trying to de-fang mastina's future scumhunting. I detected a hint of trying to demoralize her. LLD tends to be over the top, but this was over the top even for her:
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559295
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559296
  https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12559301
  These posts are LLD pre-emptively, and aggressively neutralizing mastina.

• If I had any doubt that LLD wanted to neutralize mastina, these doubts vanished when LLD literally voted hercule to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak. Then LLD makes a case on hercule after deciding that using mastina as an
  absolute compass
  to solve the game (even if in reverse). At the time of LLD's case, I wasn't sure about hercule's entry post, she might have had a point, but later I began to town read hercule and I saw it from a different perspective.

• Now, I know I'm not going to convince anyone but myself with how I found LLD's scum ego post scummy, but to be transparent in my thinking, I found it scummy in the context of the neutralization of mastina, and based on mastina's supposed bad reads, manufacturing a case on hercule off the cuff. It was a huge wall of manipulation that didn't come from a townie mindset.

• I found the rage/anger/AtE to be hollow and insincere (that's a matter of personal interpretation, I realize). I usually respond to AtE, I am one of the site's biggest sucker for AtE. So, AtE has to be pretty bad not to move me. LLD's AtE left me completely cold, which is astonishing.

• Now she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

you think LLD!scum lets her scum partners bail her out and not try and bail herself out? @dgb???

how are you reading LLD and i need to check what you're pushing because this seems like pushing against the wagon and i thought you weren't saying you were against it

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

who do you think flips scum if LLD does? have you mentioned any specific associatives? i provisionally dislike dann/ceph without having done in depth isoing yet

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

what are you thoughts on the stuff DGB is saying in 1810 above?

hopkirk can you run me by you reasons for voting LLD quickly?

i skimmed your ISO but... i'm not really seeing any specifics about why you don't like her? It's all kinda vague?

The more recent vote on her felt better but was also more based on Dann/Ceph's behavior rather than her own? i don't really get voting her on that because it's assuming those 3 are teamed which feels like a bad hole to fall into

i think i've gone through most of this recently in this catchup?
current vote is gamestate. i need to review dann/ceph. i'm throwing out reads. they're in my poe, there's stuff i don't like from both of them, and there's associative to potentially consider. i'm not locked into a associative-team, i'm thinking what the gamestate would be with scum LLD to help sort LLD

[Hopkirk]

While I love the wagons for VCA, I still think these are T v T.

Based on what?

My reads on DGB and LLD.

I feel this has been a group of people moving around from town to town.

LLD fosed Hercule.
Hercule wagon takes.
LLD wagon in response due to her push on someone regarded as town.
DGB lead that charge.
LLD wagon won't take.
Therefore wagon DGB.

We're punishing people who make wagons rather than the scum sheeping and starting up drama.

this feels like a weird view of the dynamics? how do you feel about the other four counterwagons to LLD pushed largely by similar people?
+the sounding out of possible counterwagons

no idea what to make of that readslist tbh

one thing's for sure, ceph's sure to roast it

i suppose - why is a50 a chum? (how do people even have a read on this slot tbh)

how is LLD is an umm? (id expect a

strong

opinion on this slot from everyone? actually what is an umm is that a null read or uncategorized etc.

why?

hey just wanted to make a non-game-related goodbye post, won't put any thoughts about the game here but after reflecting on it I feel like it's best for the game and myself if I seek a replacement, considering I will be on a 7 day vacation and would probably do a credit to myself to not be thinking about a mafia game during it, plus EoD will happen during it, and I would rather give my replacement ample time to read the thread so it's prob best if I just do it now

I really enjoyed meeting and playing with you people and hopefully will get a chance to do so again in the future!

cheers xx

have a good vacation, nice to play with you twice

Fair warning: I am spiraling into a pit of very strong, very bad, depression. I'm very much not in the mood to play, I just have no choice but to.

[Hopkirk]

I somehow managed to burn my middle finger's top, and it hurts so bad

Obviously it's bloody hard to stay focused while in such pain, not to mention typing with the wrong hand

But what saddens me the most is that I won't be using emojis on this one. So sorry, Hopkirk

it's weird to see some physical pain mixed in with all of the emotional pain in this thread

like you wanna increase town win %? how about not having a 200 page day 1.

100% agree with ceph here. adding my voice in support of the 300 page d1 gang

Chums

mastina
Xtoxm
Okapoka
Dannflor
hercule
DrippingGoofball
Winter flakes
InnocentVillager
Hopkirk
Almost50

Umms

Titus
LLD
Cephrir
Ythan

Scums

the worst
AGar
Dunnstral

Literally the only chum I disagree with in that list is OkaPoka; I otherwise think it is 100% town. (Heck, Oka could be town, it's just he's much better in the 'Umms' category imo.)

I'd swap him with Ceph, honestly, since I do think Ceph belongs in town.

I legit feel a good poe would be {Titus, LLD, OkaPoka, Ythan, the worst, maybe-AGar}. (I don't really think Dunnstral is scum.)

Those 5.5 I do think contain 3-4 scum. The exact combo of scum, I'm not sure on, but I can say that I still think Titus is scum here and that LLD is scum here and the remaining 3.5 are more in flux.

can you explain the ceph townread more i don't see it and i'm seeing kind of the opposite

i miss unwnd

i gotta hand it to him, that guy knew how to do a toxic 1v1. i miss him terribly. A50 bravely stepped up to fill the void in my heart but... i'm sorry A50, it's just not the same

[Hopkirk]

i have dnd in like 7 minutes so i might not quite finish this cat-chup

where are you at on ceph / dann / dgb / hopkirk

these are the slots i'm mostly unsure about although i'd say i'm more confident in dann as town than the rest

do the rest of your team have any thoughts about me. like uh... had Ydrasse been talking about me in your team pt ?
does Kanna have any reads in general of this game/is she reading it?

where are you at on ceph / dann / dgb / hopkirk

these are the slots i'm mostly unsure about although i'd say i'm more confident in dann as town than the rest

i have lean townreads on all except dgb who i super scumread (i made a case! and since you tr lld/herc/mastina (presumbly) then its a case you should look at it!)

i will say hop has been dropping a lil recently but that might be because i was getting annoyed with him

do you mean the two days where i wasn't posting when you say 'recently' or before then

well my theory is dgb didn't think it could get a lld flip today (herc looked inevitable) so when it committed to the character it doesn't know how to make an exit from it you know

which of their points do you think are an over the top character? looking at say the post i asked LLD about earlier?

VOTE: the worst

layer of irony acknowledging i made this post once before

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: the worst

anyone want to guess how i feel about this wagon?

[Xtoxm]

who do you think flips scum if LLD does? have you mentioned any specific associatives? i provisionally dislike dann/ceph without having done in depth isoing yet

ok so first off im not big on pre-flip associatives, or even associatives in general, tbh. i think there's probably stronger anti-associatives to be gained. mastina and dgb both are really committed to the wagon, so cements in my trs there. i think ythan gets towncred too, cus i have no idea why ythan is bussing lld, and he joined fairly early and has stayed on the whole way.

if pressed to answer i could see oka being a lld buddy, he's been at least presenting himself as someone who could be persuaded to join, but when talking to im not getting the sense that he actually ever would. i also feel like he's reducing our suspicions to less than they are. it feels like he keeps saying we dont have a case, and maybe we haven't presented in a strong and convincing way why we believe in this, i think all of me/dgb/mastina have to some degree explained ourselves. perhaps titus? she called herc/lld tvt pretty early and im not sure she really ever justified that convincingly.

on ceph, my current view is lld-scum, ceph-town, and lld flipping scum would reinforce this. he's come across as confused about the wagon and trying to understand it, in a way i think would be hard to fake. he feels significantly different here to v1. and yeah i get argument that you'd try to be different. i'd have

tryed

to be diff if i'd rolled scum again, but at some point you're limited by you're ability to change. i don't there's that many people who are scum gods who can completely reinvent themselves for an instant reroll on the same player list.

dann - i don't feel he has any anti-associative with lld. in general, i'm conflicted, tbh, he's been laying down decent content, and kept it up throughout. he's got a bunch of stuff ive disliked/disagreed with. auro keeps telling me he's within scumrange, but i'm wondering how wide his scumrange really is. has he has any big breakout scum performances in the year ive been away? i will note that i get the opposite feeling than i do with oka - ie, that he may be willing to join if i could give him something that he doesn't feel is pathetic.

ok but enough of that rabbit hole. i wanna see the flip, find out if i was right and go from there.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm not a fan of the wagon on The worst, I think I'd rather LLD over that. LLD why does it feel hard to work with you?

I still think DGB is playing way different from last game and also looks scummy here.

That's right I'm different, I had pushed hard for that xtoxm wagon and it was derailed. By scum.

And it's happening again. But this time I am not backing off.

[DrippingGoofball]

like you wanna increase town win %? how about not having a 200 page day 1.

Vote LLD!

[DrippingGoofball]

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

If LLD is town then you're next LOL.

[Titus]

Hopkirk is probably town.

As for his question, the wagons on everyone have largely been similar people. The wagon on LLD had people come and go too. I think this is because scum are hiding in the less vocal players. Your point though is why VCA doesn't work without flips. It's easy to get tunneled on a bad theory that flips would disprove.

[Cephrir]

how did you read her for 4.5/the long rant? i disliked it and your treatment of it here 'you've done it too' really lacks any kind of nauance. no, herc didn't post anything resembling that rant. he posted a self-meta thing, but that's different on context and content, and it's ridiculously surface level to say they're the same. the content made me TR herc's and SR LLD's because herc's felt like it was coming from a genuine place and LLD's felt more forced. i want to hear more about how these and the vibes from them are the same from you because i hard disagree

I think someone could build a case based partly on that post, but I felt hercule was trying to say "here's a case" and my problem with it was that it's not a case because it doesnt connect these events with a scum agenda. I didnt have a strong read on her self meta post, I expect it could come from either, while hercule's I liked and got an initial town read off before being dissuaded by his later posting.

[Almost50]

Alright.. I give up. Let's try something new:

VOTE: Hopkirk

I could also do Oka for all I care.

As for tw I am not against it in principle, but I'm curious as to what the replacement will have to say.

[Cephrir]

I'd kinda like to see more from LLD because I still don't know what she is from her posts and I'm starting to feel like I might be 5th impostering purely based on the gamestate.

[Hopkirk]

(I will also say that the way Titus has handled my slot is not her town meta btw. I can explain that, but I'm not sure where to start in describing the difference between Titus as town reaching out and Titus as scum. This is the latter, not the former, and pretty blatantly so, but I do realize it's something that requires background and history to help establish.)

this would be useful. i don't have the best record sorting titus

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
Ythan - low activity, nothing alarming, keep an eye on.
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.
innocentvillager - still demotivated, but healthy vote micturition.

SCUM

Dunnstral

- his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.

OkaPoka

- his OMGUS hasn't done much for me to rescind my scum read.

the worst

- VLA, waiting for more info

Lady Lambdadelta

- aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post, feeble xtomx vote.

what are the things from Ceph?

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

i'm still sorting people. LLD isn't 100% scum here, i'm at like 40-45% on the slot being scum. how certain did you have the impression i was?

Alright.. I give up. Let's try something new:

VOTE: Hopkirk

I could also do Oka for all I care.

As for tw I am not against it in principle, but I'm curious as to what the replacement will have to say.

you were already voting me. it's a bad vote

[Dannflor]

I'd kinda like to see more from LLD because I still don't know what she is from her posts and I'm starting to feel like I might be 5th impostering purely based on the gamestate.