Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Infinity 324]

I feel like no one has engaged my core reason for calling Datisi scum, but also no one has like, done the opposite and said "this is a townpost", which if you truly do not think there are signs of artificiality in that post, it absolutely should be. You can't all be scum, with or without Datisi, for being handwavy in the aggregate but I don't get it ughhhh. I really don't care that much about whether I spot people too much or too little store credit for having a good/bad meta and would much rather talk to people about whether saying a total of like 2 things in a post 3 times each is an indicator of performativity or it isn't

Circling back to this, I agree with you that the post is +scum but I'm not sold on datisi-scum in general

Skimming some other datisi scumgames, I think my articulated reasons for TRing datisi were probably bad but I held my gut up at gunpoint and it coughed up a meager TR

So that's where I'm at I guess

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I'm at basically the same place with aaron with 604 being the one scummy post

Idk who's scum so time to sheep my past self

UNVOTE:
VOTE: implo

[Infinity 324]

@datisi Are you still SRing ben

[Schiavetto]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84622

"Fiddler still goes hard" seems like a popular culture reference I'm missing

as in Fiddler on the Roof--was just reacting to the way you had tradition in caps there. Thanks for the link btw--actually kind of makes me more confident in town!Dat, hydra shenanigans aside.

[Schiavetto]

Also ftr, I'm good with whatever pronouns.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that game isn't the best representation of datisi's scumgame imo now that I've done the meta

Also fiddler on the roof is great yes

[ben dover123]

(also while we're at it, why *is* here there, ben?)

More because everyone else has had a townier moment than aff imo.

cool.
VOTE: isis

what made you think so and who is scum then?

I think her posting in the last few pages shows a very natural and logical though process (some examples are 617-624, 648, 652, 669, 672) that if it comes from scum, it's very well manufactured to look natural, but i genuinely feel like her posting has become more and more organic over time.

I also don't think the vanity vote on you is something that comes from scum when things have sort of stalled and and she could probably get away with staying on my wagon until end of day (which if she is scum would be her best chance of staying alive). It's just a weird move that doesn't make sense for scum!Isis to make in this situation.

Wow, this post is a mindmeld. This is a good post by AFF.

She put a lot of effort into her reads and I respect that. Not fully town for me but entering that nulltown area.

that's an "effort = town" kind of read?

Yeah, but I want to see where Shiavetto goes from his reads.

(also while we're at it, why *is* [aff] [in the lower half of your nulls], ben?)

@ben

also if there's ordering between your ~nulls, i'd like to see that too.

It's in my reads, let me pull a quote up.

I'm not sure about the Datisi wagon, my head is kinda a mess and I need to re-evaluate I think. Can't really read straight rn.

[Schiavetto]

I do kind of just like Aaron's posting recently. 714 just strikes me as genuinely town. And the isis unvote, and the way he talked to datisi in his last post.

i'll try to actually be online when other people are at some point soon hopefully :\

re: Aaron, I actually feel the opposite? Like, I kind of held off on responding to them for a bit just to get some distance on that first impression/avoid getting too tunnelly, but 733's a bad look imo. It just feels like more of the same, taking refuge in the gamestate being "sort of stalled" to--again--get out of actually having to opine on anyone. Like, there are some tonal things that are maybe nice in this most recent batch of posts, but a lot of it still boils down to "I'm not sure how to feel about this"--which would be a lot less egregious if there where any sense of urgency, which I don't get from Aaron at all. Part of me wants to like 565 for the pushback on you (don't think you ever answered this btw) but it's very much just echoing what I said, and in the context of 564-66 it's hard not to take it as buddying. I kind of want to like the back-and-forth with Dat, too, but like.... 604 is just stones/glass houses, etc. & 733 isn't even really an answer?
Would love for anyone to change my mind on this.

[Bridgeburners]

dats i'm responding to your 766 here

i'm not trying to make you react in any particular way, was just kinda hoping that it would spark a dialogue so that we could talk and i could sort u cuz i feel like we haven't interacted super much particularly in this game

do you think i/my slot ought to be townreading you yet? cuz like i feel like that's been bandied about quite a bit thus far and i'm just not quite seeing it yet

and ig you're kinda the progenitor of htis whole 'aaron is scum for doing iioa' thing and i'm not really sure i see that read? like ig if you're looking to vote him you can characterize his posts as such but like i'm not really sure that's what's behind his votes

ty for explaining the isis -> aaron thing tho, i appreciate it, and it helped me see wht you were thinking around then
but ig i kinda disliked the timing of your isis vote - it felt a bit like you decided it was time to help the wagon along, if that makes sense, once it kinda stalled out. like it was a weird time to hop on just then. and like i see your explanation and i can see it being plausible, but at the very same time it just doesn't feel 100% real to me? i'm not sure how much that makes sense but i'm like trying to articulate what i'm feeling/vibing rn and i'm not sure how good of a job i'm doing

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

This is the first post this game that’s made me say “ oh yeah, that’s what skitters town game looks like”.

Is there a reason that took so long? I know you’re also good as scum so I don’t really know what to make of it.

uh idk beyond 'i was really busy last week and was only giving like a half a thought to this game'
not sure why that post in particular made you see town-me tho

~ skitter

[Isis]

I disliked the timing of Datisi's Isis vote because its timing wasn't postgame discussion.

[implosion]

I do kind of just like Aaron's posting recently. 714 just strikes me as genuinely town. And the isis unvote, and the way he talked to datisi in his last post.

i'll try to actually be online when other people are at some point soon hopefully :\

re: Aaron, I actually feel the opposite? Like, I kind of held off on responding to them for a bit just to get some distance on that first impression/avoid getting too tunnelly, but 733's a bad look imo. It just feels like more of the same, taking refuge in the gamestate being "sort of stalled" to--again--get out of actually having to opine on anyone. Like, there are some tonal things that are maybe nice in this most recent batch of posts, but a lot of it still boils down to "I'm not sure how to feel about this"--which would be a lot less egregious if there where any sense of urgency, which I don't get from Aaron at all. Part of me wants to like 565 for the pushback on you (don't think you ever answered this btw) but it's very much just echoing what I said, and in the context of 564-66 it's hard not to take it as buddying. I kind of want to like the back-and-forth with Dat, too, but like.... 604 is just stones/glass houses, etc. & 733 isn't even really an answer?
Would love for anyone to change my mind on this.

I can see a reading of 733 that's mediocre but I don't really see it as significantly scum-indicative.

To answer the post I never answered it comes down to being bold about the haiku thing. It's a kind of dynamic that I can see scum avoiding engaging in. It's a minor thing. I think someone else said something similar about it.

This is the first post this game that’s made me say “ oh yeah, that’s what skitters town game looks like”.

Is there a reason that took so long? I know you’re also good as scum so I don’t really know what to make of it.

uh idk beyond 'i was really busy last week and was only giving like a half a thought to this game'
not sure why that post in particular made you see town-me tho

~ skitter

Fair. I'll not answer why and see if you keep doing it; I don't actually know if it's actually a towntell for you but.

What is it from me this game that you've found scummy-but-not-in-a-way-that-you're-sure-actually-means-i'm-scum?

[Bridgeburners]

@ implo:

~ your early game penguin read felt kinda weird, almost like that interaction wasn't tvt (105 and 109)

~ your earlygame dats townread was also fairly bizarre and felt like it came too early to me? like this is one of the 'dats is town' reads that seem fairly prevalent and i just ... don't get why 112

~ similarly, 172, although abt ben, feels like it's oriented towards dats almost? like you're trying to get on dats' side in that conflict? idk felt weird

~ mena didn't particularly like that you called our slot scum but was fine waiting to resolve this read via waiting to see if we died or not. tbf this i didn't really mind.

~ you shaded the aff-scum thing when that was a thing, but without like really commiting to it

~ putting both us and isis on your bottom tier of your readlist was, like, a take, ig. that didn't make much sense to me

~ again with the strong town on dats that feels kinda unwarranted 521

~ and then you were promoting the isis wagon well after it stopped being a particularly viable thing, and like, i don't get the timing

and like i'm not sure that that all adds up to scum-implo but i keep going hmmmmmm??????? and like i don't have happy-feel-good-vibes because i don't super get how you're approaching this game really

~ skitter

[Isis]

I don't like when people scumcase eachother and I'm not convinced by the scumcase but I townread the way she went about it cause it doesn't give me anybody to vote

[Bridgeburners]

i mean i only did cuz implo asked me too

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

and i'm not sure i agree with the scumcase either, that's my problem

~ skitter

[Isis]

implo has felt somewhat less towny in general past couple RL days but I distantly remember really liking something which means I would need to reread to due dilligence actually voting there but that is EFFORT auugh

when I could be lazy and just policy vote

or paranoia PP

or something

[AaronFrost]

I do kind of just like Aaron's posting recently. 714 just strikes me as genuinely town. And the isis unvote, and the way he talked to datisi in his last post.

i'll try to actually be online when other people are at some point soon hopefully :\

I feel like you're townreading me off of posts I've made that I don't feel should be AI. You mentioned earlier that you like my 266 and 167 so can you elaborate on why you read those as town?

[Datisi]

@datisi Are you still SRing ben

i guess??? like i don't think anything in his recent posts (or like, any posts for that matter) made me go like "yes... this is town..." and i do think there's still decent enough chance he's scum, but that decent enough chance is not like, decent *enough* for me to start screaming and fighting the uphill battle against consensus to get him flipped today

and like. if ben isn't happening today then sorting him today isn't really a priority, so i'd rather kinda let that sit till day 2 bc i know i could be confbiased here, and i assume day2!datisi will be like, fresher and smarter (or possibly dead but then i extra don't have to sort him so)

[AaronFrost]

does anyone just want to eliminate the scum hydra for not even pretending to maintain a read progression

I think that weird progression can be explained more by hydra dissonace than it can as a scum progression so not really

[AaronFrost]

I think bridgeburners is someone I'd rather sort later anyways just because I've been historically inaccurate at reading both heads of that hydra in the past

[AaronFrost]

Do I have to agree with all of Isis's posts in order to townread Isis? Because that's not really what my read on Isis is based on.

no, but i think i didn't express myself well. i wanted to ask you to look at it from my pov - isis has seen me be not-townie, and to me it felt like a shitpush. you cited some of those posts as ~natural and logical~. do you still view them as so, after knowing about the meta?

If you're asking me if I think you being not obv-town is an indicator that you're scum this game, the answer is no. My whole point was that I can see why town isis thinks this is the case based on her experience playing with you, even if I don't think there's a correlation with Datisi being not obv-town = Datisi scum.

[Datisi]

do you think i/my slot ought to be townreading you yet? cuz like i feel like that's been bandied about quite a bit thus far and i'm just not quite seeing it yet

and ig you're kinda the progenitor of htis whole 'aaron is scum for doing iioa' thing and i'm not really sure i see that read? like ig if you're looking to vote him you can characterize his posts as such but like i'm not really sure that's what's behind his votes

ty for explaining the isis -> aaron thing tho, i appreciate it, and it helped me see wht you were thinking around then
but ig i kinda disliked the timing of your isis vote - it felt a bit like you decided it was time to help the wagon along, if that makes sense, once it kinda stalled out. like it was a weird time to hop on just then. and like i see your explanation and i can see it being plausible, but at the very same time it just doesn't feel 100% real to me? i'm not sure how much that makes sense but i'm like trying to articulate what i'm feeling/vibing rn and i'm not sure how good of a job i'm doing

i have no clue about you because i don't know how skitter machine works
i can understand mena not yet explicitly townreading me here but i also don't think he should be voting me which is partly why i'm interested for him to get on the phone here (is that the expression? you know what i mean)

i mean like, that's partly why i voted him. if you don't agree with that read/conclusion, fine, but i'm not sure i get what you're trying to ask me here? like the way the second sentence is formed makes me think that you're asking *me* for explanation of other people's votes on him?

i think i get why you think the timing was weird
like as soon as i saw those posts from isis on me, i wanted to vote her, but she was on 5 votes, and i cannot just put someone to 6 votes in a n_m game, but i also didn't wanna give intent yet because i wanted to see her response to me first
so after aaron unvoted, i could then vote her without putting her in lolhammer range
if that's what you meant by my timing being off, then yeah i get it

[Datisi]

did that really take me 15 minutes to type up oh my god i should not be awake right now

[Datisi]

My whole point was that I can see why town isis thinks this is the case based on her experience playing with you

and my whole point was that the experience that she was citing was not actually the full extent of it and whether the knowledge that it actually wasn't the full extent changed your outlook

but as this is a point i have kinda given up on myself i don't know if there's much point dragging this line of discussion further