TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[OkaPoka]

lol i love this dgb is my top sr atm this aint a compromise this is a victory

[innocentvillager]

i guess will just pray you guys are right and my analysis this game has just been way off and reset tomorrow if this hits scum

[innocentvillager]

i will maybe look at this tmr and actually think about it more I am very tired rn, maybe I’ll just sheep you guys and pretend this game doesn’t exist instead who knows probably wouldn’t be much of a loss anyways

[Almost50]

Mastina A50 TWslot plus one on my wagon plus Ythan

That would 5 Scums, when the abandoned setup had only 4. Do you think this is a realistic possibility?

I would also request that you explain the SR on each slot, but I feel like I won't have much to respond with if you do, so I'll make it optional

[Almost50]

I think that's one too many, so I may have a townbeard in my SRs

OK, ignore my last post

[Ythan]

I would also request that you explain the SR on each slot, but I feel like I won't have much to respond with if you do, so I'll make it optional

Try to act like you want to accomplish something.

[Almost50]

I think I've reached the point where I'd need 4 red flips before I can confidently call the scum team.

[Almost50]

I would also request that you explain the SR on each slot, but I feel like I won't have much to respond with if you do, so I'll make it optional

Try to act like you want to accomplish something.

That would be voting you (being the top wagon) because my most sincere wish is for this day to finally end

[OkaPoka]

sooooo a50...?

[Ythan]

I would also request that you explain the SR on each slot, but I feel like I won't have much to respond with if you do, so I'll make it optional

Try to act like you want to accomplish something.

That would be voting you (being the top wagon) because my most sincere wish is for this day to finally end

Being snippy doesn't make handling your suspects with baby gloves any more believable.

[Almost50]

@A50
we usually work well together, whats going on this game?

Damned if I know

i have a strong scumread, would you consider backing me?

Spoiler:

[Almost50]

Being snippy doesn't make handling your suspects with baby gloves any more believable.

I have no strong suspects anymore. I refer you to 2756 up there

[OkaPoka]

a50 vote a wagon pls

[Xtoxm]

the slot im currently voting.
if you care for my thought process, peek at #2144

[Almost50]

@rest of the wagon on ythan why were u guys voting ythan

VOTE: dgb

Asking for why they were/are voting someone + naked voting someone else is a very convincing way to draw my attention.

VOTE: Oka

EVEN if you had stated a BIG case before you need to reintroduce it, because I'm sure most people have stated why they were voting one person or another somewhere sometime.

P-edit: I\ll take a look soon @Xtoxm

[Ythan]

Is that Oka vote just about what you addressed in the post?

[OkaPoka]

lmao what

[Almost50]

@Xtoxm: I don't think LLD is scum here. I've just finished a game with her and we were scum together. Ceph was there too (also Scum) and we both don't think this is scum!her.

In fact, I would have expected Scum!LLD to target me for the D1 elim bc she has a low opinion of me as a player and believes I'm easy to push (she even wanted me to hammer a claimed TR of mine in that game, which she acknowledged would be a scum claim, because she thought I was doomed anyway)

So, 2 reasons why I TR LLD: Her overall play/tone is unlike hers in that game, and her attitude towards me isn't what I would have expected from Scum!her after that game

[Almost50]

Is that Oka vote just about what you addressed in the post?

No. He's currently at the bottom of my reads (not that I would call ANYONE a "confident" SR, but yeah.. let's just say it's the slot I like the least)

[implosion]

22

In both American football and association football, a total of 22 players (counting both teams) start the game, and this is also the maximum number of players that can be legally involved in play at any given time.

Vote Count 1.22

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Hopkirk, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(6): Dunnstral, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, innocentvillager

Ythan

(4): Luca Blight, Titus, AGar, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

OkaPoka

(1): Almost50

Not Voting

(0):

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to eliminate. Deadline is set for 11:00 AM PST on February 12, in (expired on 2021-02-12 15:00:00).

[Xtoxm]

[auro]

1.
dgb's method of generating reads has been consistently fluid. look at her play wrt lld:
-dgb noted early in the game that lld's attacks on mastina were scummy
-objected to our slots suspicion on lld for not considering the possibility of performative town!lld
-scumread on lld came after #679, and mentioned the personal attacks, consistent with above

2. what is the reason for it to push lld so far, if scum? does scum!dgb think it wins the 1v1 with hypothetical town!lld?

3. corralling the town to vote, #1574, shows town motivation. it drives up participation, and makes people takes stances.

4. as far as i can see, the case on dgb is:
- motivations being read into how it has played
- appearance as compared to previous game (why the heck does this mean anything?)
if you have a strong read, you will come across as pushing behind a motive, ie, that of pushing you read to a kill (exactly what we have spent the day doing, btw). the tunnel is not out of no where, the path dgb took is clear. lld has also been following the motive of trying to eliminate hercule, xtoxm, dgb - and yet this is okay even if all are town?

5. there has not only been attention on lld, dgb has been regularly updating reads on the playerlist throughout the game, and with explanations not related to the lld read

6. what is the issue with dgb's case in #1810? i want to hear a convincing reason of why is it bad, not just simply a difference of opinion



@dann and dunn. i want you to commit to answers on these for future reference.
1. bop - lld has pushed {hercule, xtoxm, dgb}. i assert that all are town, and this play is insufficient for a scumhunter of lld's quality. you allege that dgb is scum. if dgb flips town, does this hold weight?
2. there have been many attempts for a counterwagon. with a solid block of players who townread each other pushing the lld wagon all day, would it be easy for scum to take advantage and achieve a town!lld flip, and allow the slots who pushed hardest to bear the brunt of the fallout.
3. jjh has mentioned that he townreads much of the wagon composition on lld, which makes it a good wagon. do you agree with his logic? if yes, which slots other than dgb are not townreads for you? if dgb flips town, does this view gain strength?

[end auro]

[Dunnstral]

1. bop - lld has pushed {hercule, xtoxm, dgb}. i assert that all are town, and this play is insufficient for a scumhunter of lld's quality. you allege that dgb is scum. if dgb flips town, does this hold weight?

LLD wasn't big on dgb being scum; they are now voting and acknowledging that dgb can be scum but it wasn't what they led with.

Regardless, DGB being town does make LLD more likely to be scum, but still not locked in

2. there have been many attempts for a counterwagon. with a solid block of players who townread each other pushing the lld wagon all day, would it be easy for scum to take advantage and achieve a town!lld flip, and allow the slots who pushed hardest to bear the brunt of the fallout.

No I don't think so. And even if they could, some people just aren't predisposed to doing that

3. jjh has mentioned that he townreads much of the wagon composition on lld, which makes it a good wagon. do you agree with his logic? if yes, which slots other than dgb are not townreads for you? if dgb flips town, does this view gain strength?

I don't agree with his logic

Having a bunch of town on a wagon doesn't mean the target is mafia. If it's a well founded wagon, sure, but this one isn't and it's been shown time and time again

I've talked about my reads in 2607

If you mean my view if dgb flips town, that depends on if my read is related to dgb or not (and most of them aren't), so in general no

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey guys, quick question:

IF someone says "hey, BoP me, kill the thing I want to kill and if it's town, fade me"

and they go "no we'll kill you instead you're scum"

and then all your pushes die and no one wants to do them

so you finally compromise on a vote you're not sold on but appears to be the only consolidation people will accept that day.

Is calling that a BoP bad faith?

More importantly, if it's not, at what point do the arguments that people are making finally stop being "oh they really believe this they're just dumb and wrong"

and become bad faith?

How many times can a player like Mastina and Xtoxm be corrected on an obviously false statement, only for them to get away with it because "oh they're town don't worry about it"

People have been complaining in this thread all day about how people push me without any real reason, and all given reasons are shot down.

And yet you will never finally say "oh hey these pushes might be in bad faith"

why? Like how many times do they need to say things that are obviously and patently false like "LLD is pushing DGB" and then make clearly bad faith inferences like "we should BoP LLD if DGB flips town" before we start asking if the inferences and statements are being made by scum?

I want an actual fucking answer.

[mastina]

mastina, who the fuck is going to defend a scumbuddy in ythan
We just came out of a game where scum double bussed xtoxm and the best they could do to defend xtoxm was to tmi him as town and eat the pressure onto another. No hard defense, a throwaway tmi
In fact the only reason why xtoxm lived was 3 people tming him town, two townies and 1 scum
You cant honestly think that ythan would be hard defended by scum as scum, esp after just witnessing last game

I mean that's basically my point.

There are exactly two possible worlds:
Ythan is scum, and no scumbuddy is going to defend him (optional, but presumed: with a high chance of at least one if not multiple scum bussing),
OR,
Ythan is town, with no scumbuddies to defend him because he's not actually scum (optional, but presumed: in which case scum are happy to have him be the elimination, and may be among his voters).

In both worlds, there is a high chance of scum being on his wagon. Since there's a high chance of scum being on his wagon regardless of whether he is town or scum, pointing out who the scum are on his wagon is nothing but beneficial, since scum should be there regardless of his alignment.

I think that's one too many, so I may have a townbeard in my SRs

For the record--this is once more not a Titus-town mindset. If Titus were town here with too many scumreads, it would trigger a reevaluation from her of the gamestate and her assumptions, not to mention her reads.

The fact that she knows how shitty my scumgame is and knows my town meta fairly intimately yet is insisting I am scum without reassessing that at all is one example of this, but it's very widespread.

I am telling you.

On every level--this is not Titus as town; this is Titus's scumgame.

I'm actually becoming more sure Titus is scum than LLD is scum (when I am pretty damn sure LLD is scum).

There was a world where Titus could be town...but the more and more from Titus I see, the more and more I realize that world just doesn't exist. (Basically, to explain this: certain normally-scum-indicators for Titus can, situationally, in specific circumstances, actually not be scum-indicators for her, and be either null or even situationally town for her in spite of generally being Titus scumtells. That's why Titus started as 80% scum rather than 100% scum; the remaining 20% was the possibility of Titus being in those situational circumstances. But the more and more Titus scumtells, with multiple different Titus-specific scumtells piling up over time, the less and less likely it is that this is her in those situational circumstances, and with the multitude of Titus scumtells, the chances of her being scum go up to nearly 100%. If I had to estimate, it'd be in the 99% percentile. I'm

that

sure this isn't Titus as town.)

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

My thoughts:

I like Dannflor's posts. I don't know if he posts in a way that I'd find different if he were scum. He feels good

Cephrir feels ok. Last game I was actually suspicious of him but didn't like how the wagon was forming around what seemed to be his thoughts of Mastina, this game I'm not really, except that he sometimes reverts to feeling unhelpful sometimes

Okapoka, I don't think he's that bad this game, or that different. He's just not as towny this go around which raises some eyebrows

Agar is towny, people just don't like his playstyle/posting style. Most people probably skim past his posts.

This feels like town Mastina due to the amount of energy she's able to put into whatever she is doing here, and she somehow feels different when she's scum, like she's acting in bad faith rather than just being tunneled

Xtoxm feels tonally different from the last game to a degree where they feel town this time. I think their push on lld is questionable given the reasons they laid out being, in my opinion, bad, especially when they showed they're able to case someone

The way Innocent Villager is treating me is weird. I thought they were fine but writing this out I think most of their posting is nullish and they deserve more scrutiny.

Hopkirk, I don't really know, one of my teammates thinks he's town. I don't find the case against him convincing, which leaves him at null but not towny

Winter Flakes is indeed blending into the background, and I'm also forgetting that they're in this game. I feel like last game they were a lot more involved.

Titus goes between towny and scummy. I like some of her posts, tonally, others not so much.

Ythan should probably get more scrutiny from me, he isn't doing anything, he's capable of doing stuff, he's being unhelpful for some reason. I don't have strong feelings about this flipping scum.

LLD - I think the case against them is garbage, which has been brought up several times but plowed through. I don't find them particularly towny though. I'm trying to work with them here. DGB is easily the scummier of the two which is why I'm not voting on LLD.

DGB is really scummy and different from last game. Numerous people have listed them as a strong townread but I don't think that has ever been well substantiated beyond LLD being scum (what if LLD isn't scum?). Why can't DGB and LLD both be scum anyway? That feels more likely that just LLD being scum to me

Luca Blight - Hercule was alright, I think. I don't have an opinion on what Luca has done

Bell - Predecessor felt kind of scummy, Bell feels kind of scummy

jjh927 isn't doing much, but at least he can point back to posts and his train of thought can be followed.

Almost50 is vaguely towny but I don't remember anything he's posted int he last week or so.

That seems a lot of words for very little content.