Newbie 2054 - GAME OVER

[Alisae]

honestly krazy ik that everyone can see ur comet in the sky when its dark out but geez ur not the only person I love here

[Alisae]

aka you need to read the scum pt to remember which one's your buddy so you can bus? :3 :3 :3

TRUE

[Krazy]

and tbh im stalking marcistar not u god

understandable but uhh don't be so obvious about it, she's still new mang

Spoiler:

*mafiascum.net does not endorse actual stalking, the cute discussion of stalking here is a reference to joining games with enjoyable players*

[Krazy]

honestly krazy ik that everyone can see ur comet in the sky when its dark out but geez ur not the only person I love here

this is a scumclaim

we all know you love me more than anyone else

[Alisae]

okay found it
this is for the newbies
back in my day in 2017 we had ICs which basically helped newbies get familiar with the site and mhsmith was one of the few that actually gave tips for playing. I'm not sure how much weight they hold now but most of the stuff he posted about came all of the games he played so its like, not a bad start.

[Alisae]

honestly krazy ik that everyone can see ur comet in the sky when its dark out but geez ur not the only person I love here

this is a scumclaim

we all know you love me more than anyone else

ah shit

[Cantripmancer]

I had more time to catch up than I expected, yay!

I don’t think scum would fight hard to save a townie so I think the Marci/2nd connection is gonna be more like t/s or s/s. @Marci: I believe you are either mistaken or you are scum with 2nd.

I highly doubt that on Day 1 a townie would be that adamant about saving another townie without having knowledge that they are townie, so I don’t believe it’s a t/t connection. (I.e. they aren’t masons together)

This feels like you're not even considering the possibility that Chosen might be town; why the confidence?

Also, I'm confused. I feel like Marci's defense of Chosen is being perceived as excessive, so wouldn't it make more sense to postulate that Marci and Chosen

might

be masons rather than discounting the possibility? And wouldn't the logical alternative to explain Marci's defense of Chosen if they're

not

masons be that

Marci

is scum white knighting Chosen (if it's unlikely that a townie would be excessive in defending a townie)?

I can see scum white knighting a townie for towncred if they think the townie gets flipped despite the defense.

Thats true, but in this case it’d be so obvious, at least in the way it’s being done.

Are you familiar with TSTBS (Too Scummy To Be Scum)?

Here's the better question -- do you *townread* chosen in a way that you *want* him alive tomorrow, marci?

no townread on chosen, but yes i want them alive for tomorrow. i feel like theres better elims for today
i wanna sort chosen out d2 (when they would

hopefully

have more time to post..?)

If you had a day kill and could eliminate Harumi, who would you vote to eliminate if they flipped town? What if they flipped scum?

basically "attacking someone pushing your buddy to indirectly protect your buddy by lowering the pusher's towncred"

This is, imo, a very good succinct definition of a chainsaw defense.

I would also like Harumi's readslist.

Here's mine, with Harumi absent, because it will depend on her response:

Townread

:
IVD

Townlean

:
Krazy
marci
Cantrip

Null

:
2ndchosen1

Scumlean

:
eth0s (for his conspicuous silence)

Wow such scum

:
Meuh

That is sorta bizarre because I'm in agreement on multiple slots here but I have IVD and Meuh swapped...and Chosen is in scumlean with eth0s...and I guess IVD isn't "wow such scum" as much as they're "most concerning so far". What do you like from IVD?

Also, welcome @Alisae!

[Alisae]

btw really cool site hack for reading up:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 40&ppp=200

it increases the post per page from 25 to 200
its very useful since you can just click the multiquote button and then go on your way.

I'll read now ig

[Krazy]

Also, I'm confused. I feel like Marci's defense of Chosen is being perceived as excessive, so wouldn't it make more sense to postulate that Marci and Chosen might be masons rather than discounting the possibility? And wouldn't the logical alternative to explain Marci's defense of Chosen if they're not masons be that Marci is scum white knighting Chosen (if it's unlikely that a townie would be excessive in defending a townie)?

uuhh don't mason hunt day 1? :3

[Alisae]

I have a tendency to use hyperbole and confidence regarding reads. Part of this hyperbole is saying 'im masons with x' or 'i have a guilty on y' -- these are not softs and I am not trying to rolefish or anything like that. They are just a way of expressing my reads in shorthand, usually to indicate I liked or disliked one specific post. For example, I might say "I'm masons with marcistar" and that would be more a way to express my initial take on their first post and not a real hardclaim. I say that because I was about to say "I'm masons with marcistar" -- usually I'd just leave it at that since people in normals/large themes would usually get that it wasn't a serious claim.

Look Krazy ik you have to go out of your way to groom the whole playerlist but u can't be a negative influence on the playerlist you know.
the newbies here look up to you, if they started to do this in games it'll blow up on them!

[Alisae]

god be a proper role model jesus

[Krazy]

idk I feel like if I had been better prepped for the frequency and intensity of town shitposting I would have handled some of the regulars on this site a lot better

[Alisae]

ok that's actually an inteligent take shit

[Alisae]

i forgot that not everyone is a sweaty tryhard gamer like me
fuck

[Alisae]

beating the mafia with the power of friendship can be problematic (it can be hard to reevaluate people if you don't *want* to reevaluate them) but I still would rather have that then a highly toxic game, which can occur even in newbie queue.

ooh i hope the games here don't get too toxic but yes we need to look at things objectively and make smart decisions, regardless of who we like or dislike

Games can get toxic but also games can be really fun where everyone is nice and stuff. ik I can get quite toxic from time to time but it's mostly just trash talk.

--

I do think Kazyan looks like a townie here, just from reading his posts and his reply to Krazy's read, although I think anyone contributing to the conversation is more likely to be town than people not talking, right? Most games I've played the more silent the town, the better for scum

There is a phrase known as "Dead Air Dead Villager" which basically states that the thread is completely abandoned and is like a ghost town, scum are okay with the gamestate and that someone is probably gonna flip town. It doesn't really apply here generally speaking not speaking is bad regardless of what ur alignment is.
If ur town and u don't speak then you're not trying to solve a puzzle.
If ur scum and u don't speak you get PoE'd and then its really hard to come back, but also the other player who is ur teammate has to deal with the fact that all of the pressure on them is to carry. Ideally if ur scum should be posting because every post you write is another post that's not being posted by a villager.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh crap, my bad, I’ve been trying to catchup with the other two games I’m playing and forgot about this game. Un momento.

[Krazy]

Oh crap, my bad, I’ve been trying to catchup with the other two games I’m playing and forgot about this game. Un momento.

don't think you were in prod range were you?

[Kazyan]

wtf I stop refreshing the thread for like an hour and suddenly we have HYPERPOSTING

Alright, let's go. Regarding some of Cantrip's takes, which are as hot as I was hoping they'd be:

1) I townread IVD because his posts come across as methodical and insightful--claims like the S/T or S/S relationship between Marci and 2ndchosen1 are strong and helpful, instead of trying to look busy. Given what you've pointed out, I can see how the tone and intent of his posts count be interpreted a different way, but I'm still thinking townie for now. I'll review things on Day 2.
2) 2ndchosen1's second game is this one. He has only one game before this, Mini Normal 2187, in which he was scum.
3) This "falsifying scumread" method indeed completely ignores strong pro-town signals, which is probably why you got burned and why I will at some point. I will likely get more sophisticated in evaluating people as I continue playing.

[ItalianoVD]

@kazyan: why am I your top townread?

[Krazy]

Kazyan is a time traveler, whoaaaaaaa

[Alisae]

whats chainsawing???

Chainsaw Defense

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.



Taken from the wiki

the really important thing is here context on if this is scummy or not. For example at the start of d2 in this game, murdercat posts a case on scum!polar bears

These are the reasons that Noraa is scum:

1. Early tone is over the top and later shifts
2. Same response to pressure as in Death Curse
3. Gloria is too invested in attacking me, given her limited involvement

Spoiler: 1 - Tone

Noraa knows that she has a signature tone as town that is hard for her to fake as scum due to the fact that she doesn't enjoy the role. She also knows that this tone is highly effective on Pooky.

AHEM
*jumps around and hits everyone on the head with a heavy textbook*
IM CONFTOWN
I never ever thought I'd say this in this game but I am AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
*does some breathing exercises*
*breathe in*
*breathe out*
*throws a slipper at murder*
I be happy. Btw atm I wanna yeet shelly to the sun just bc she scummy af. I also wanna yeet UNO to the sun for lurking big time yesterday during the scroll passing periods and alivening the moment a new day starts.
Ahem T^T Mush dont hurt me for the fluff. *hides behind murder*

There is a joyful happiness that exudes from her posting like summer rain.

This post in particular.

It feels extremely pure and innocent.

I believe that Noraa's tone this game is fake and over the top.

me wuz joking btw. me wills follow some rules

Don't use AtE. 100% scum indicative. you use that evilness to pocket me >:(
scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum scum
HMPH

u thought I would tunnel u. 200% scum indicative.
town!me has been proven to be able to hunt scum!alisaes.
tell the truth. ur scum again aren't you?

back for round two of Lets break Noraa's heart

NOPE. NOT IN MY GOOD CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD(im not even christian but like sh)

VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: VOTE: Double the trouble

*raises my eyebrow*

O_o
o_O
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
me shalls give rvs TR lollipops to u two. I expects green apple TR lollipops back tho and they must be green apple or blue raspberry!

For your consideration, two of Noraa's town isos:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Skim through posts 1-500 in each of those games. Notice how much more exaggerated Noraa is here?

Now you might just look at those posts and think it is within Noraa's normal range, but look at page 2 in her iso.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12398736

Nothing in page 2 of the iso is anything like these first posts, suggesting to me that the tone is fake and she is having trouble keeping it up. Noraa is even aware of this and points it out:

The baby talk will be back tomorrow when I'm less sleepy

Spoiler: 2 - Response to Pressure

Noraa has trouble making up cases as scum. Look at these posts in death curse (links rather than quotes due to length):
8962
9127
9233

Now compare to the case that Noraa has on me in this game:
2513
2523

For full context, the following posts are:
2514
2524

In both cases, there is no actual analysis happening. Noraa is linking a lot of quotes, providing a superficial description of the events, and claiming that I am scum off them without actually providing any reasoning behind her claims just as she did in my last scum game with her.

Spoiler: 3 - Gloria

Before I begin this section on Gloria, it is important to point out that I am

not

making a case based on activity here. I believe that Gloria has had RL stuff going on and I don't use arguments like that because, as I said with BM, I think it's kinda shitty. However, given Gloria's lack of activity you would not expect her to 1. be particularly invested in the game and 2. have strong opinions about me. However, there are a number of instances that suggest to me that Gloria is in a scum PT and is aware of certain pushes that need to be made (currently, this refers to attacking me, in an attempt to reduce the influence that I am having on the game as I am correct about Noraa scum).

First, some evidence that Gloria shouldn't be very aware of the gamestate:

Pichu, Gloria isnt feeling well or something.

She's been talking to me a little bit about the game but methinks she's either sick or sad.

Apparently they haven't been talking very much about the game. Fair enough. Now let's look at the Gloria posts that come after this.

VOTE: Murderkitty

I don’t like the way he’s been pushing us, it feels very disingenuous to me. He sees Noraa as easy miselimbait and I feel didn’t engage me in good faith.

DT shading us for my not posting enough is also bas but they might actually believe it. I don’t trust murderkitty and how he’s been trying to drive a miselim without following up on the answers to the questions he asked of me. What happened to that MC? Why did you ask me those questions, then fail to follow up on them? Why didn’t you ask me to explain or elaborate on those reads? You just dropped it altogether. I want to know why and I’m not moving my vote until you explain this.

This is a strong reaction for someone barely following the game and against someone who Noraa had not really been pushing at all, no?

Well we are a hydra, so are you saying you’re townreading me?

Well I’m really trying. If you recall I think it was either my first or second post to LLD in Death Curse was I expect to be generally useless early game and I wasn’t going through that rl thing at that time. I’m not good at larges. I get lost with the sheer number of players I have to sort, pages to read etc.

I still like Ydrasee because she’s engaging a slot and Pichu and I think this is probably town! MT we’re seeing. Wrt BM I did like their sincerity but as I said before I have no meta on them and if Noraa’s right about them being TPR then it’s obviously a bad wagon.

I’m kind’ve wondering why DT has ignored my posts about my rl issues and how I even said that Pooky can confirm I’m having a rough time of it. @DT, did you just skip those posts because you called my lack of activity scum indicative despite my posts literally telling you that Pooky can verify I was telling the truth about that, so why the unwarrented shade on me for that?

This to me feels like someone who is more aware of the gamestate than they are letting on. Once again, I am not suggesting that Gloria isn't dealing with real stuff. I am suggesting she is getting info from a scum PT and has an agenda that she is pushing. There is no effort, for example, to look through my iso after accusing me to see what she has missed. To me, this is behavior from someone who is over-informed and pushing something on the thread, not a townie who is trying to get back into the game.

I may not be the greatest mafia player ever, but I know when I've caught scum. I let Pooky and mastina run the show D1 and we missed. Let me take my shot.

VOTE: Polar Bear Express

Then Bell in response votes Murdercat for some reason

fuck it.

VOTE: Murdercat

now if Bell is town, he has no reason to do this this early because he would be jumping to conclusions if he decided to come out with a read here, and what town would want to do here instead is watch how polar bears responds to said case, and then watch their interactions to figure out what is going on.

Then this happens:

?

Good morning villagers

good morning fellow human. Beep.

@Murdercat, they're not scum. I read your old argument, I read their posts. I've read their reactions to pressure. Scum emulate their own town games and their own response to pressure because it's like what they normally would do. You pushing at Noraa town is scummy asf.

and the whole interaction just reeks they're not trying to find scum but rather trying to act with some kind of agenda.

[Alisae]

ok im done reading

[ItalianoVD]

The progression of your perspective feels weird, IVD. You read through Krazy's reads and a) don't know what to think about them, but b) you "like to hope" they're town, but c) you just don't know, BUT d) you agree with Krazy on their scumspect (2ndChosen). Why the quadruple(!) waffle there? Why not just say "I don't know if you're town, Krazy, but I agree with your Chosen read because of..."?

Just saying “null” is boring.

This I'm a bit lukewarm on, though, as I've felt that kind of tone change from newer players (regardless of alignment). It's NAI for me.

In the context of 2nd/krazy, I don’t see it in this way. I’ll try to go back and show you what I mean, but it’ll probably be later though.

I may have missed it, but what’s your top scumread(s) or limpool?

[Alisae]

I need reads on Harumi and 2ndchosen1 from you Alisae-chan <3 <3 <3

{Harumi Meuh} 1 scum max 61
I don't think this is scum attacking scum and I think either side could be scum here.
Meuh posting a readlist here is strange and I don't see a reason why Meuh needs to post a readlist right now?
Harumi attacking that readlist could be a scum motivated action.
Both of them being villagers is possible.

{Italiano, 2ndchosen} 1 scum max 226
the justification on the vote pings me from Italiano so if Italiano is scum, 2ndchosen could be town,
but also Italiano being town is quite possible from what I read earlier so it could also be possible that it's Italiano town and 2ndchosen scum.

{kazyan, meuh} 1 scum max 236
the whole thing pings me and reads like scum voting town, I don't like how kazyan is basically describing meuh's actions like everything about it is scummy and it pings me.


As for actual reads
{Krazy}
{Italiano, Marci}
{Cantrip}
{Meuh}
{Harumi, 2ndchosen, kazyan}

[Alisae]

ok Krazy what now