TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Winter Flakes]

VOTE: luca
the spirit of dann flows through me

[Winter Flakes]

ythan wagon is really meh like to me it just seems like policy based on personality which i don't really like. don't think it has a good chance of flipping red either imo

jjh i'm more willing to vote but i wanna go here first

[Almost50]

I will simply point out that I was one of the votes on the wagon - I know how it happened, and it wasn't seriously moving forward until LLD tried to rally up a wagon. I'm not "wrong again" - you're trying to manipulate what happened based on posts absent context and just pulling what works for you.

So, we do have different interpretations to the term "leading the wagon". When I use it, I mean first vote on the wagon. When you use it I assume you mean pushing it. Meh!

[Almost50]

i think the average person in general has way bigger egos than we might think, online anonymous mafia just happens to be a good activity that draws egos out lol

I beg to differ. IRL I have a much much MUCH bigger ego. Like, on MS I'm just a little white monkey, but IRL I am King Kong. Oh, and not the version that died eventually either. I'm King Kong from Skull Island. I'm mighty, strong, courageous, tough..



I'm back! Sorry about that (I saw a cockroach and fled the room screaming, took the stairway down 4 floors in like 3 seconds, and got the doorman up to check. He managed to kill the little monster, so it's all safe now)

Now where was I? Ah, yes.. IRL I am MIGHTY, STRONG, COURAGIOUS, TOUGH...

[Cephrir]

VOTE: luca
the spirit of dann flows through me

This also continues to be fine

[Ythan]

1) Why are you not expending literally any energy trying to get a wagon on Ythan pushed further?
2) If your scumread on Oka is independent of Ythan, case it. And explain why you're abandoning your "solves" in 3233 so rapidly.
3) Hypothetically, if Ythan was an IC, how does that impact your opinion of Oka?

1) What more can I do? You tell me.
2) I can only vote one person at a time, so I don't really need to make a case on someone I'm not voting today.
3) In that case I'd have done the thing we're not supposed to talk about openly in the thread.

P.S. 1 & 2 are serious answers. 3 is obviously sarcastic, because I can't see Ythan as Town, let alone IC. Like "Hypothetically, if A50 was an amphibian..." HOLD ON! Monkeys are mammals!

Daily reminder this slot is obvious bad scum

[mastina]

and Titus was right

It's easy to be right about "this is TvT" when you're scum.

I'd say that it's far, far more likely to find scum in the players who said DGB v LLD was TvT, than it is to find scum in the players who took a decisive stance.

[mastina]

Oh I forgot to mention; I'm multitasking right now, so I'll be extra slow.

and Titus was right

It's easy to be right about "this is TvT" when you're scum.

I'd say that it's far, far more likely to find scum in the players who said DGB v LLD was TvT, than it is to find scum in the players who took a decisive stance.

To wit:

I did not say it was TvT; I am town.
Hopkirk did not say it was TvT; he is town.
Xtoxm did not say it was TvT; he is town.
hercule/Luca Blight did not say it was TvT; that slot is town.
Cephrir did not say it was TvT (albeit unlike Hopkirk/Xtoxm/hercule/Luca/me, he was of the DGB-scum opinion); he is town.

Ythan I believe did not say it was TvT; he is unique in this list in being a scum candidate, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, he's not scum with Titus+Oka, at the very least, so I am guessing he is town and if so, the trend continues.

Titus said it was TvT. She's scum.
AGar basically said it was TvT. He's probably scum.
OkaPoka basically said it was TvT; he's probably scum.
Winter Flakes did say it was TvT, but while I townread him, he's not locktown so could be scum.
Almost50 did say it was TvT, but while I townread him, he's not locktown so could be scum.

IV's a bit of an oddity; he preferred Titus yesterday, did take stances, but didn't think a scum flip was likely.
jjh is a bit of an oddity; he didn't think either DGB or LLD were the easiest scum to catch, but that's not calling it TvT per se.
(Dannflor is another oddity and exception to the general rule; he said it was TvT but we know he's town.)

Bell's hard to tell; he voted DGB and said that he wasn't going to vote LLD but it's hard to tell if he thought DGB was scum or not. Regardless, he has a decent chance of being scum.

Suffice to say: there is a trend overall.

Most of the players who called LLD v DGB townVtown, are in fact high candidates for being scum;
Most of the players who had a firm stance on LLD v DGB are very obviously town.

So any theory which goes "oh the people who were right on LLD v DGB being tVt are town" has it rats-ass backwards; having LLD v DGB as TvT is basically TMI on their part.

[mastina]

Anyway great job everyone that sucked ass can wait for mastinas apology tour

I realize that leading a D1 mislynch on a strong player is a severe blow to my credibility--but don't think that's going to cause me to back down from my other reads.

I actually feel like the LLD elimination on D1 was the best possible elimination there that we could get. Titus was better because Titus is legit not even bothering to hide that this is her scumgame, but I'm not sure we could've gotten her. DGB was thinking Titus was town, for instance, and I wasn't sure I could get Xtoxm's backing. I wasn't sure we had the numbers for Titus even though I was more sure of Titus being scum than LLD.

And an LLD elimination was higher-information than any other option.

It's for similar reasons that I can't really fault the vig for the shitty-ass shot on DGB. It was painfully obvious that DGB was town here--but objectively as one of the strongest D1 wagons alongside LLD and the end of day wagon to her, getting those who thought it wasn't TvT to be proven wrong is, ultimately, not terrible even if it's a bloody waste that caused one of our better PRs to die in spite of how DGB was an obvious protect even when wrong. (I am bitter about that shot, but I at least understand it and can acknowledge the benefits of the objective knowledge it garners.)

It was wrong, and we lost a player who is good at town from it. Two, thanks to the vig on DGB, three, thanks to no protective on either DGB/Dannflor succeeding. But

Spoiler: I made my stance on that very clear:

For the record, RE: Titus.
I normally give Titus a free pass on D1; I normally give Titus the benefit of the doubt on D1; I normally give her time, even in the events I am scumreading her; I normally am happy to work with her even if I am scumreading her, assuming she is cooperative and not arguing in bad faith and/or shading me and/or portraying my posts in a negative light.

This game, however, has the issue of be not being able to give that--I give Titus a pass on D1 by using what amounts to a variant of jjh's style, of "catching the easiest scum" on D1. With Titus not being the easiest scum in most games, that gives me the luxury of giving her space. But as I've already said, the jjh mold of "catch the easiest scum" doesn't work if there's no easy scum to catch, if every scum is a skilled scum player, which I suspect to be the case this game.

With no easy scum to catch, I cannot afford to be as lenient with Titus. And I scumread her. And on top of that, her first engagement with me wasn't a reachout; her first engagement with me looked like it was bad faith or shade or negative light. With her first interaction with me being in bad light, and me scumreading her, and with no easy scum to catch, all of that is why I'm not giving Titus the free pass I otherwise would, because, yes, I do think there's a fairly high chance that Titus is scum here.

My philosophy now is around just finding the easiest scum I can find on day 1

And what if the game has zero easy scum to find? What then?

I literally made posts detailing this problem.

ugh why is it so much harder to get reads this game than last game?

Well bluntly: because the people who rolled scum this game are better scum players.

You can't really say {Cephrir, hercule, Xtoxm, ABR} is a scumteam composed of the highest caliber scum players, now, can you? Most of the town caught Xtoxm and/or ABR, and while I failed on that front, I caught hercule and Cephrir when most of the town hadn't yet.

In this game if I am in any way remotely close to correct on {Dannflor, LLD, the worst, Titus}, if so much as 2 of those are correct as scum, instantly, the caliber of the scumteam this game is IMMEDIATELY an automatically-higher level than last game. In fact, "higher level" is a disservice.

Last game's scumteam in terms of strength in tiers would be solidly C-tier: not as bad as can be, but fairly bad.

In this game if so much as two of my scumreads are correct, that it automatically a MINIMUM of A-tier. The more I'm correct on, the closer it approaches to S-tier scumteam in caliber.

It is going to be harder to get reads in a game with an A-S-tier scumteam than in a game with a C-tier scumteam. Both because the scum are harder to identify, and because the scum are better at shading town players and making them appear scum. And to some extent, this effect is recursive. If town have a harder time finding scum and have an easier time suspecting town, the town look less town due to this. So it's a self-building cycle of difficulty: scum are harder to detect due to being better->scum are better at shading town->town struggle to identify scum and are more suspicious of town thanks to scum->town look less town due to scum being harder to detect and scum shading town->town continue to struggle to identify scum; etc.

You can instantly fix this by adjusting your perspective to account for this.

The moment you accept that the scum in this game have more top-tier players in them, the easier it is to identify the town in the weaker players and the easier it is to sort the top-tier players for who among them is well-performing scum.

with regards to bop
has a BoP ever been legitimately carried out? genuinely curious lol

Maybe in like the 2009-2011 era in like .01% of games.

But in general?

Yeah, it doesn't happen.

In this game in particular tho: it'd be almost impossible to give everyone who is a competent scumhunter a 'chance' to catch scum.
The list of players who I'd say could maybe, maybe, MAYBE not be included as "competent scumhunters who deserve the chance/'chance' to catch scum" is incredibly small:
MAYBE innocentvillager (tho IV's town here anyway, thus, not on the table); AGar; directly-Xtoxm (tho indirectly, Auro is in the list of competent scumhunters deserving the chance to catch scum and Xtoxm is Auro's proxy); Winter Flakes/Uncrowned; hercule; Cephrir; Ythan.

5-7 players, of 18, who can't use the "give me a chance to catch scum, and if I haven't, THEN and only then you can poe me".

That means of the 11-13 other players...literally all of them can use LLD's defense. "Don't eliminate me on D1. Give me a chance to catch scum. And if I don't within X days, then you can burden of proficiency me."
Titus can use that excuse; I could use that excuse; Auro through Xtoxm could use that excuse; Dannflor can use that excuse; the worst can use that excuse; OkaPoka and co can use that excuse; DGB can use that excuse; jjh can use that excuse; Almost50 can use that excuse; Dunnstral can use that excuse; LLD can and IS using that excuse.

At some point, you gotta accept that on D1, in order to actually eliminate scum, you're going to need to take a risk of depriving the town of a good scumhunter if the scumread is wrong. Because in those 11-13 players who are good scumhunters that deserve the chance to catch scum if they're town, there's going to be 1-4 scum (and I posit all four are, indeed, inside that group most likely).

There's 11-13 players who, if eliminated on D1 as town, deprive the town of a good scumhunter, but if those 11-13 players contain all four of the scum within them, it is still optimal to take that risk of eliminating a good scumhunter, so that the D1 elimination has a chance of landing on a player who is actually scum.

If we play safe and let every good scumhunter have a chance at catching scum on D1, then the D1 elimination will 100% guaranteed be on town.

I'd rather take a risk of eliminating a good scumhunter for the reward of potentially eliminating scum, than not take a risk of eliminating a good scumhunter for the 'reward' of a guarantee of eliminating town.

Basically, let me summarize the possible outcomes for today:

1. We eliminate a player who doesn't have a longstanding reputation as an incredibly strong, often fairly solvey, town player. They flip scum.
   This is optimal, but improbable. I'm townreading all of the 5-7 players who fit this criteria. Even if I'm wrong in a townread on one of them, I would expect that grouping to have 0-2 scum, most likely 0-1. Failure is by far the most likely option, leading to...
   
2. We eliminate a player who doesn't have a longstanding reputation as an incredibly strong, often fairly solvey, town player. They flip town.
   D1 is mostly wasted, and the town is at a disadvantage due to all scum being alive. This is by far the most likely option if we refuse to take a risk.
   
3. We eliminate a player with a longstanding reputation as an incredibly strong, often fairly solvey, town player. They flip scum.
   This is a huge net win for us, and is by far the most likely outcome of us scumhunting effectively. The only reason to not aim for this option is because of fear of...
   
4. We eliminate a player with a longstanding reputation as an incredibly strong, often fairly solvey, town player. They flip town.
   This is, indeed, an ultimate feelsbadman moment. HOWEVER...While even if there's 4 scum in the 11-13 players who qualify for this, meaning, statistically speaking, a ~25% chance of hitting scum and ~75% chance of this outcome, that assumes blind elimination within the group. If we scumhunt, we can up this to be in the realm of 50-100% of hitting scum, ensuring that this doesn't happen.

Option one won't happen.
If we refuse to aim for option 3 out of fear of it leading to option 4, we will guarantee option 2 happens.

And I'd rather take the risk of option 4, if the reward is option 3, due to my belief that option 1 won't happen.

No matter who I pushed on D1, if they were town we were going to be losing an asset. LLD was town so we lost an asset. I made it no secret that this was possible; on D1s, I've got like a 75-25 town-scum pushing record on the read I push that day. And when it's the 75, especially on a strong town player, there is going to be an uphill battle to convince people that the rest of my reads are not shot.

And that comes down to what the information gained

does

tell us.

The information gained from D1/N1 tells me, by and large:
-Scum didn't care who got pushed in {Ythan, LLD, DGB, hercule} because all of them were town
-Players who took firm stances in the above and pushed hard are likely to be town, due to being the uninformed majority who didn't know they were wrong
-Players who didn't take firm stances in the above are more likely to be scum because they had no need to take a firm stance due to no scum being threatened
-The failure of the Titus wagon to gain momentum D1 is proof that it is not the same as the others, and the immediate defense there from AGar/Oka is scum-indicative

So yes.
I am sticking to my Titus vote.

[OkaPoka]

before anyone corrects mastina i just want to let them know i am okay with her representation of me, in fact i prefer this version so you don't need to do that

[mastina]

Vote Count 1.6

hercule

(7): Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst, Dannflor, Dunnstral, Cephrir

Lady Lambdadelta

(5): DrippingGoofball, hercule, Hopkirk, innocentvillager, Xtoxm

the worst

(2): jjh927, Winter Flakes

Dannflor

(1): mastina

Almost50

(1): Almost50

Not Voting

(2): Titus, AGar

For instance, let's look here.
LLD was town.
hercule was the major wagon here.

If hercule were scum, who are the scum pushing LLD?

It wasn't DGB.

Do you think {hercule, Hopkirk, IV, Xtoxm} as a group has 2-4 scum in it? For hercule to be scum and scum to push a counterwagon to him, this must be the case. (Because by the time Ythan joined the LLD wagon, the hercule wagon had collapsed.)

Vote Count 1.9

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Hopkirk, innocentvillager, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan

hercule

(3): Lady Lambdadelta, the worst, Dunnstral

Hopkirk

(3): Almost50, Cephrir, Dannflor

the worst

(2): jjh927, Winter Flakes

innocentvillager

(1): Titus

Not Voting

(3): AGar, OkaPoka, hercule

LLD was the dominant wagon; LLD was town. With LLD as town and LLD as the dominant wagon, scum could be anywhere right here.

Vote Count 1.13

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, hercule, Hopkirk

DrippingGoofball

(5): OkaPoka, Dunnstral, Dannflor, Cephrir, the worst

the worst

(2): jjh927, Winter Flakes

Hopkirk

(2): Almost50, AGar

Dunnstral

(1): innocentvillager

innocentvillager

(1): Titus

Xtoxm

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

The first DGB counterwagon to LLD forms, but both were town. As a result, scum could be anywhere; it doesn't matter where they are at this point in time.

Vote Count 1.14

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, Luca Blight, Hopkirk

the worst

(6): jjh927, Winter Flakes, Titus, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, the worst

Hopkirk

(2): Almost50, AGar

Dunnstral

(1): innocentvillager

Xtoxm

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

The worst counterwagon to LLD forms. Bell's alignment is unknown here, but the LLD wagon doesn't take off here--if Bell is scum, why did the wagon on LLD not grow in spite of scum now being threatened? The LLD wagon has the exact same six players on it. This implies that Bell might be town, and that scum can be anywhere they want to be.

Vote Count 1.16

the worst

(6): jjh927, Winter Flakes, Titus, Cephrir, Dannflor, innocentvillager

Lady Lambdadelta

(4): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan

DrippingGoofball

(3): Dunnstral, the worst, OkaPoka

Hopkirk

(1): AGar

Xtoxm

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

Not Voting

(2): Luca Blight, Almost50

In fact, the response to the worst's wagon is the LLD wagon

shrinking

rather than growing. Another sign that Bell may not be scum.

Vote Count 1.18

Lady Lambdadelta

(5): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, jjh927

Bell

(2): Winter Flakes, Titus

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, Bell

Titus

(2): innocentvillager, Dannflor

Ythan

(2): OkaPoka, Cephrir

Hopkirk

(1): AGar

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

mastina

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting

(2): Luca Blight, Almost50

Vote Count 1.19

Ythan

(8): OkaPoka, Luca Blight, Dannflor, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta, Titus, AGar, innocentvillager

Lady Lambdadelta

(5): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

Not Voting

(1): Almost50

The Ythan wagon forms basically overnight.
Again, ask: if Ythan was scum, placed to L-2...where are his scumbuddies? Why aren't they trying to mount a counterwagon? We know that LLD was town and DGB was town and both were viable wagons. The wagons on both could've easily gone through if scum pushed them there and scum had no reason to not do so if Ythan was scum...

...But scum had no reason to do so if Ythan is town. If Ythan is town, again supported by this votecount, then scum could continue to be wherever they wanted to be.

Vote Count 1.20

Ythan

(5): OkaPoka, Luca Blight, Lady Lambdadelta, Titus, AGar

Titus

(4): Dannflor, jjh927, innocentvillager, Cephrir

Lady Lambdadelta

(3): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

OkaPoka

(1): Ythan

Not Voting

(1): Almost50

And here there was a Titus wagon, but notably: this was its peak. It never got larger, even though there was now no dominant wagon: the Ythan wagon was falling apart, the DGB wagon fell apart, the LLD wagon was down to the holy trifecta as literally the only three votes there.

Vote Count 1.22

Lady Lambdadelta

(6): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Hopkirk, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(6): Dunnstral, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor, Lady Lambdadelta, innocentvillager

Ythan

(4): Luca Blight, Titus, AGar, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

OkaPoka

(1): Almost50

But then the DGB and LLD wagons emerged again with the Titus wagon gone.

People talked about Titus as an option at deadline--but none of them followed through. Nobody tried a #yolowagon on Titus; nobody tried a CFD wagon on Titus; nobody tried an alternative wagon to LLD or DGB, unless you count the pitiful Ythan wagon.

For the people who had firm stances, this was understandable--I was terrified that if I took my vote off of LLD, it would condemn DGB to the D1 elimination. People with conviction not trying a #yolowagon is understandable: Me, Xtoxm, DGB, Hopkirk, Ythan, Cephrir, and LLD not trying? Makes sense.
Dannflor and IV DID try.

But overall, there wasn't much pushback from the players who had both as town.

[mastina]

DGB being dead town is really taking the wind out of my "you're all fools" line of posting i had planned today

Yes, well, ditto LLD, so we're even. LLD was town, DGB was town, we were both wrong--so now you gotta ask what those two being town means for those who had strong opinions on the alignment of them, versus those who didn't have a strong alignment of them, versus those who considered both to be town.

(Hint: one of these is a position that town is almost always going to be almost exclusively in; one of these is a position that is highly likely to be scum TMI; one of these three could be either town or scum. Given the options are "convinced it's SvT", "not sure on xVx", and "convinced it's TvT", take a guess as to which is which.)

[mastina]

i personally still like iv a bit although i will admit his eod was kinda ?????????
but dgb/lld both being town makes it feel like a wash now idk

Realtalk; why are people townreading Oka?

He's far more guilty of the things he's shading IV on imo.

[OkaPoka]

tell me what am i shading iv about exactly

[mastina]

I was targeted by a babysitter.

Oh?

And how, pray tell, are you aware of this?

[*]Dannflor, representing Whatever Farm Animal of War -

Town 3-shot Announcing Neapolitan

- Killed Night One

Because announcing is the only role that can allow for you to know you were targeted by the role and I am somewhat doubtful of there being an announcing babysitter, who decided to forgo their protective action in favor of attempting for the kill one.

Because literally nobody would protect Titus N1 over Dannflor, so a Babysitter could only target Titus to try get a kill there.

Depending on who claims that role come massclaim, it will make a huge difference in how I perceive it.
Nobody claims it? Titus is scum lying her ass off. A player who is at no risk of being the N1 nightkill claims it? Either scum fakeclaim or town with a huge massive overbloated ego who massively misread their importance compared to Dannflor and DGB. A player who was at high risk of being the N1 nightkill? A misplay imo but at least the one scenario where the claim is unambiguously town.

Granted, probably not too relevant--I am alive now, but I probably still get nightkilled here before massclaim anyway. I'm not a viable mislynch, I DO present a credible setup spec threat, and while my credibility may be shot, I don't need to convince the town to eliminate the scum: I just need to apply pressure to the scum while being obvtown to present the credible threat that if I live to lylo, the scum cannot eliminate me and I will vote scum and in lylo where they can't eliminate me, me voting scum spells their death. (Basically, I probably die before lylo, but as close to before lylo as scum can get away with. They're not killing me N2 due to my credibility being shot right now, but the longer I live the more positive rep I rebuild and the more pressure to them I will apply, so I'll still be dead before massclaim anyway, probably.)

[mastina]

Is it possible for babysitter to be a scum-aligned role?

As a killing role (especially in a game with a vig; the nasty implications of a vig vigging a scum babysitter would never pass a Normal review), it is not. The role must be town, if it is real. I will judge for myself if it is real based off of who claims it come the time they claim it (which, presumably, will be massclaim).

[mastina]

Is it possible for babysitter to be a scum-aligned role?

As a killing role (especially in a game with a vig; the nasty implications of a vig vigging a scum babysitter would never pass a Normal review), it is not. The role must be town, if it is real. I will judge for myself if it is real based off of who claims it come the time they claim it (which, presumably, will be massclaim).

Notably: announcing neapolitan can generate 3 innocents while being a huge town role. Potentially 4 conftown.
Vig is inherently conftown. 5 conftown.
A babysitter, if real, is potentially 6 conftown in the game.

That's not impossible, especially in an 18-player Large, since it's only 1/3rd of the playerlist as conftown, and there's great counterplay options. (Notable possibilities: lack of protectives, scum blocking role.)

However, it does stretch credibility to me. 1/3rd of the town as conftown is something that Isis couldn't possibly have missed. Do you think Isis allows it to go through, when on top of the 6 conftown you also have DGB as a possibly-seen-as-town extra? 7 hard-or-impossible-to-eliminate town players, out of 18, with Isis as a reviewer?

It's not impossible, because to some extent, that's a best-case scenario for the town and the NRG doesn't tend to balance for the extremes; a more marginal expectation is that while the Neapolitan is town enough to not be eliminated, it doesn't get 3 innos, reducing the conftown, and the tracker having been a scum role last game can be scum this game too, reducing the conftown even further.

So babysitter as town in this game isn't impossible.

But I have good reasons to be skeptical of Titus's claims to have been targeted by one.

[Ythan]

Actually, Dann also had the Announcing Modifier. Can everybody ask their "more-experienced-in-moderating team members" what that could mean?

Did I ask YOU to give an opinion? Are you am experienced mod? Which one of your team members gave that response? And -most of all- WTF does the answer have to do with the question?

The previous game didn't have a repeated Modifier. This game does. I am asking what that means from the perspective of setup speculation done by experienced mods in Normal Games. What does the fact a game didn't have something have to do with the fact another game does?

You know what? I'll stop it at this. I was just trying to make it clear to EVERYONE how you are pretending to be engaged but are actually contributing absolutely nothing.

Remember when a50 pretended to want input about the claim and then made this massive shitpost when he got it.

[mastina]

Titus' didn't want the lld wagon. The wagons collapsed on dgb and lld and they went lld; both were town. This isn't a bad progression compared to someone who was tunneling on lld or dgb earlier?

This is rats-ass backwards; the players who were tunneling on LLD or DGB are in fact all pretty much locktown from it--instead, it is the players who insisted it was TvT that are by far the most likely to be scum, and Titus is chiefly prominent of them.

[Ythan]

Mas I'd like to be convinced that a role listed as normal for any alignment must be town here but it's gonna take a little more.

[mastina]

Titus didn't want the LLD wagon or the DGB wagon but didn't do anything else

Exactly; this is the difference between a town mediator and a scum mediator.
A scum mediator who says the wagons are both town has no incentive to actually make a serious effort to dismantle them; a town mediator who says the wagons are both town has strong incentive to try and find an alternative and push for the dismantling of them.

[mastina]

with our deadline?

Titus was doing nothing far before deadline hit, and LLD v DGB was hardly something specific to the last 24 hours of the day.

People sitting on the sidelines with a lack of conviction or convinced both were town had plenty of time prior to the deadline to try and shift the course of things. Most of them opted not to.

[Winter Flakes]

I actually feel like the LLD elimination on D1 was the best possible elimination there that we could get. Titus was better because Titus is legit not even bothering to hide that this is her scumgame, but I'm not sure we could've gotten her.

this is a weird take i think? wasn't titus a wagon that had like 5 or 6 votes on it at one point?

[Winter Flakes]

In fact, the response to the worst's wagon is the LLD wagon shrinking rather than growing. Another sign that Bell may not be scum.

can you explain why this is a sign bell might not be scum? i don't think i'm following the logic

[Winter Flakes]

also it's a bit hard to give credence to the whole "people who called it a TvT" thing are far more likely to be town than scum when it's just from your viewpoint that the people who didn't call it TvT are town, given you were also very certain on LLD being scum, no?

unless your reason for hard TRing those people is primarily because of the fact that they took stances on the two slots?