Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[Green Crayons]

And NM, anything against any player on the Gamma wagon other than that it was a CW to MC-scum?


Thoughts about whether Gamma/Mena is also scum?

[Infinity 324]

Everything I'm saying about gamma not trying to look town and drawing attention to himself is 10x more true if people are saying he's the bomb

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I don’t really get this argument of “well scum wouldn’t do X because wouldn’t they have a better strategy than that?”

I mean, you said that about MC not being in thread and then he flipped scum

Scum can and do do things that look bad. in this case scum!gamma would have had a pretty good reason to try to defuse pressure on murder by diverting the wagon elsewhere. MC wasn’t being towny, so what “good” reasons could gamma have come up with to townread MC? Pretty much any reason you use to call MC towny is not going to look good. And gamma was trying to wagon NM so there would have been a specific purpose there to calling MC town.

- Daenerys

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Gamma is competent at scum. People were happy with the murder wagon. It doesn't make sense to put yourself out there with a weak defense, no one is going to buy it and it will make you look worse. If gamma was scum, that means there wasn't a good town CW, and pushing on NM as a CW doesn't make sense because there isn't solid reasoning to call him scummy with. He could've just...null read murder if murder wasn't being towny, and said he's not willing to go to bat for murder. Scum don't do bad plays because "WIFOM lul".

We can ask murder postgame whether he was avoiding the thread or demotivated, I have my suspicions

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

Finally - might be a bit biased since I was on the receiving end of it, but gamma’s emotion left a really bad taste in my mouth. He lashed out at me and penguin, then said I wasn’t allowed to take it personally, told me to fuck off and was really condescending towards me, and then preemptively started explaining why he wasn’t actually an asshole to anyone because it was all part of his experiment with mafia where there’s low stakes and so (words inferred by me) it doesn’t matter if anyone else gets upset because he’s being an ass, no sir. So that whole time I felt like he was up on a high horse telling me that I wasn’t allowed to be frustrated or emotional but he was and that I wasn’t allowed to be upset that he was an asshole. like... really bad taste in my mouth. Since I’m probably biased, I’m marking this as NAI.

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

So, tell me who you want to elim off of there, yyotta?

That my reasoning is not solid. I may not have articulated it in the best way, but I think it's solid reasoning especially since I'm decently familiar with gamma's meta

being an asshole /= town
getting emotional /= town

I feel like this is at best something like a nullcase on him, not a towncase - gamma’s reasoning being “not scummy” is not the same thing as gamma’s reasoning being towny.

What did you think was genuine about gamma’s defense of MC? Why are bad reasons NAI? Why are bad reasons from gamma a reason to townread him and not a reason to nullread him (at best)?

- Daenerys

Being an asshole isn't towny in a vacuum, but antagonizing a widely TRed player for no discernible benefit to scum is

Getting emotional isn't towny, but displaying genuine emotion tends to be

I thought gamma displayed genuine emotion when he dug in his heels against you/penguin arguing against murder's elim

Bad reasons are NAI because they are

They're not a reason to TR gamma, they're NAI

I think I adequately responded to these points in my previous post

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

I think this setup favors hard defending over bussing. Trying to keep goons alive long enough to get into the panic room is still important. Losing a goon means the other goon has to town it up really hard. In my opinion, bussing only really makes sense if you have someone well-placed to deepwolf (which I think most of us have agreed would be dumb&dumber given they led the MC wagon, but I don’t see much point in entertaining that possibility today).

[Daenerys and Dragons]

@infinity what are your thoughts on these posts

{1278} = Don't agree with you cause like you overreacted on Dumbass ( Auro) earlier, Gamma Emerald overreacted with you too. Yes, he might have the wrong meta on you (which is according to you), but that doesn't necessarily scum indicative. Your reaction was also not calming when the 1v1 was going on. And he said that he has issues with communicating, that's why he was ignoring you which I feel genuine. Also, he may be doesn't solve the game like you're doing but I don't find him scum for this.

fine, let’s remove all the “emotional”-related things (once again, I feel like my points are not invalid just because I’m emotional, but I’m being treated like my content isn’t valid just because I’m frustrated)

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

- see 1432 - setting up false dichotomies and then going “oh welp guess this person must ~logically~ be scum” when that ignores all context of the game
- “wrong meta” is an understatement. you have to actively be looking at two of my worst scumgames at all time, where I rolled over like a napkin, and think that that kind of engagement is at all similar to how active or engaged I’ve been in this game.

- Daenerys

The reason I brought it up is because it seemed like gamma had completely ignored 1) what position scum!me would have to have taken on a town!skitter and town!auro; and 2) the effort I was putting into the game. again, if he wanted to say I was scum despite that or because of it, fine, but he did not consider where my slot stood in the context of the game. he chose to create a false dichotomy between my slot and another slot in two different ways (me vs penguin and me vs dumb & dumber) and then was like “oh well I guess if lilith is in two dichotomies it should be her.” that’s the same mentality I’ve taken to reads as scum before, where I set up a chain of “logic” and then just use those points to draw “conclusions,” and ignore everything else about the actual play in the game.

- Daenerys

reposting these. I think I’m still decently confident in what I said about gamma before.

- Daenerys

- Daenerys

[Salsabil Faria]

@salsa would like a response to the posts quoted in 1642 since I don’t think you ever responded

- Daenerys

You have points, specially after

MURDERCAT

's flip, so I really don't have anything to defend

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

's slot. But if

Infinity 324

and

YyottaCat

are the other two scums here, then I think

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

's slot is town.

My POE = {

Infinity 324

,

YyottaCat

,

Gamma Emerald/Menalque

} and I think

Infinity 324

is the bomb.

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Infinity 324]

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I've clarified the murdercat point before, I believe he had just given up, I don't think there was a realistic hope of the wagon "just going away" when he had implied he was going to be less underwhelming and hadn't done so.

Yes it's possible scum!gamma misplayed, but occam's razor says he didn't, I have no idea why someone would feel locked into a weak townread

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

I'm not sure how to argue this, I felt strongly when I saw gamma's posts that the genuine emotion was connected to a belief that murdercat was town

I agree with you that gamma was out of line at some points, I don't see why that's scum-indicative, or why scum antagonizes you on purpose there.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

Almost every time I see this logic being used it's wrong. I agree that gamma's position didn't make a ton of sense, but he's perfectly capable of making sense as scum, and I don't see why he's bending over backwards to justify a SR on you as scum

I don't think you're going to be convinced by my arguments if you haven't been already

[Daenerys and Dragons]

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I've clarified the murdercat point before, I believe he had just given up, I don't think there was a realistic hope of the wagon "just going away" when he had implied he was going to be less underwhelming and hadn't done so.

Yes it's possible scum!gamma misplayed, but occam's razor says he didn't, I have no idea why someone would feel locked into a weak townread

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

I'm not sure how to argue this, I felt strongly when I saw gamma's posts that the genuine emotion was connected to a belief that murdercat was town

I agree with you that gamma was out of line at some points, I don't see why that's scum-indicative, or why scum antagonizes you on purpose there.

Like I said, I’ll agree to saying it’s not necessarily scum-indicative but I’m not going to call it towny.

Mena has yet to do anything to make me townread the slot. He came up with some theories that didn’t really make sense and that’s about it.

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

Almost every time I see this logic being used it's wrong. I agree that gamma's position didn't make a ton of sense, but he's perfectly capable of making sense as scum, and I don't see why he's bending over backwards to justify a SR on you as scum

I don't think you're going to be convinced by my arguments if you haven't been already

This is my primary method of reading people and my read accuracy isn’t terrible, so I’m clearly going to disagree about this.

I don’t think he was “bending over backwards to justify a SR on me.” I think it’s more likely that he felt backed into a corner, went aggressive in order to defend himself from being pushed, and the easiest way to do that was to try to shade me. I don’t think gamma has ever even played with town!me, so he was applying scum “meta” as if it’s supposed to be indicative of anything without towngames for comparison.

Do I think gamma was approaching me in good faith? No.
Do I think town!gamma would have used shitty, invalid meta? Not really.
Do I think town!gamma’s points of view should have been understandable from my end, even if I didn’t agree with them? Yes.
Were they? No.
Do I think gamma setting up not one, but two, false dichotomies with me in both is scum-indicative? Yes.

- Daenerys

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Using bad meta and setting up false dichotomies that “logically” lead to a conclusion of X must be scum are both things that I’ve done

as scum.

Yeah they look bad, so what? Scum will still do things that look bad. Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

At that point scum!gamma would have been looking for a different counterwagon. Penguin probably looked like a viable option. I probably looked like a viable option (to gamma, since he said I was not obvtown).

pedit: ok

- Daenerys

[Infinity 324]

Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

I can't resist arguing mafia theory

In my experience, for every scum who does something that obviously looks bad, there are 10 who don't do it, or do it but have an excuse that looks pretty reasonable

Gamma didn't seem to have a reasonable excuse to defend murder, or to SR you

Psychologically, scum are scared to do the thing that "obviously" looks bad because it's, well, scary. And a better plan than trying to do the obvious thing and WIFOM people is to come up with a reasonable excuse, because then you don't get SRed by the people that SR the obvious bad stuff. And even if you're playing against a lobby of infinities, sometimes I will buy the reasonable excuse anyway. It tends to be easier than people expect to come up with a reasonable excuse for things, too.

[Dumb and Dumber]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

I'm sorry, my friend, but this looks incredibly fake :/

VOTE: Infinity420

-Dumbass

[Not_Mafia]

And NM, anything against any player on the Gamma wagon other than that it was a CW to MC-scum?


Thoughts about whether Gamma/Mena is also scum?

I don't like to think too much, I might hurt myself

[Dumb and Dumber]

Everything I'm saying about gamma not trying to look town and drawing attention to himself is 10x more true if people are saying he's the bomb

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

Isnt it just possible that scum-gamma saw mc getting wagoned and didnt know how to position himself?

Like it may not have been purposeful, but rather that he didnt know ehat to say to divert the wagon but ended up digging himself into a deeper hole

~ skitteR

[Dumb and Dumber]

Oh lilith said the same thing

[Dumb and Dumber]

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

I think this setup favors hard defending over bussing. Trying to keep goons alive long enough to get into the panic room is still important. Losing a goon means the other goon has to town it up really hard. In my opinion, bussing only really makes sense if you have someone well-placed to deepwolf (which I think most of us have agreed would be dumb&dumber given they led the MC wagon, but I don’t see much point in entertaining that possibility today).

Tbf if i were scum doing that that would be exactly the sort of reaction i'd be trying to evoke

~ skitteR

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

I think this setup favors hard defending over bussing. Trying to keep goons alive long enough to get into the panic room is still important. Losing a goon means the other goon has to town it up really hard. In my opinion, bussing only really makes sense if you have someone well-placed to deepwolf (which I think most of us have agreed would be dumb&dumber given they led the MC wagon, but I don’t see much point in entertaining that possibility today).

Tbf if i were scum doing that that would be exactly the sort of reaction i'd be trying to evoke

~ skitteR

sorry I don’t really know what this means, can you eli5?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

I'm sorry, my friend, but this looks incredibly fake :/

VOTE: Infinity420

-Dumbass

what happened to bomb-gamma theory?

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

I can't resist arguing mafia theory

In my experience, for every scum who does something that obviously looks bad, there are 10 who don't do it, or do it but have an excuse that looks pretty reasonable

Gamma didn't seem to have a reasonable excuse to defend murder, or to SR you

Psychologically, scum are scared to do the thing that "obviously" looks bad because it's, well, scary. And a better plan than trying to do the obvious thing and WIFOM people is to come up with a reasonable excuse, because then you don't get SRed by the people that SR the obvious bad stuff. And even if you're playing against a lobby of infinities, sometimes I will buy the reasonable excuse anyway. It tends to be easier than people expect to come up with a reasonable excuse for things, too.

I’m not arguing that scum will always do these things. I’m just arguing that scum will not

never

do these things, so doing it isn’t a very good reason to say someone is not scum. I feel like your reasoning on murder and now gamma is that scum would never do something that looks scummy which I fundamentally disagree with. Also, I’m still not sure how this is town-indicative? Are you trying to argue that town are more likely to do scummy things than scum?

Also re: the “gamma would have had a reasonable excuse” part, I feel like he tried to come up with reasonable excuses. On MC it was explaining all the “meta” and on suspecting me it was “logic” and also “meta.” What do you think scum!gamma would have done differently regarding both me and murdercat if you don’t think he’s scum?

- Daenerys

- Daenerys

[Daenerys and Dragons]

oops got overexcited and signed twice

[Dumb and Dumber]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

I'm sorry, my friend, but this looks incredibly fake :/

VOTE: Infinity420

-Dumbass

what happened to bomb-gamma theory?

- Daenerys

It didnt really go anywhere, but auro decided to vote infinity and i sr him enuf to not object

And i meant that if i'm scum with mc and my goal is to bus him and ride off the cred, i'd (hopefully) do it in such a way that i dont look aligned with him, so if you're paranoid of that reality u probably shoulsnt be shelving it just cuz you townread me cuz that would have been the point of doing the hardbus in the first place

Have a great weekend everyone

~ skitter

[Infinity 324]

I’m not arguing that scum will always do these things. I’m just arguing that scum will not never do these things, so doing it isn’t a very good reason to say someone is not scum. I feel like your reasoning on murder and now gamma is that scum would never do something that looks scummy which I fundamentally disagree with. Also, I’m still not sure how this is town-indicative? Are you trying to argue that town are more likely to do scummy things than scum?

They're only "scummy" in the sense that a blatant contradiction is scummy or a scumread on a obvtown UTR player is scummy. Scum try to avoid doing them, and town sometimes is weird, so they tend to come from town more often. Of course scum will sometimes do these things, there's nothing scum will never do, but they are weakly to strongly town-indicative depending on meta and context.

[Green Crayons]

Mena you want to do an effort post or?