Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Duchess]

I thought of a way to make this real easy for you, VP.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

Let me be more to-the-point. Are you saying you're suspicious of us both being scum? If that's what this means then that's the answer to my question, and I don't understand your aversion to having that on record in your ISO. Otherwise I have no idea what you're getting at and I need an explanation.

[Duchess]

Since you still haven't answered me, I'm going to have to dig up every time you've mentioned my fight with GC to show how consistently you have sat on that fence all game. I'm chalking this straight up as a refusal to answer, by the way, because last time you claimed to have already answered when I clearly wasn't satisfied with that answer, and now you've just entirely cropped my post. I'm disappointed, I didn't think you would be the type of scum player to start dodging questions under an ounce of pressure.

As promised, I present-

Spoiler: Fence-Sitting for Weak Scum, Or The Art of Outsourcing Your Reads and Opinions to Townies,

GC town

Go on

As in, why specifically is GC town here, and do you think Duchess is scum?

acknowledges fault imo

Can you point me to what specifically pinged that for you?

He isn't being cagey about his reads in that post. He is using a metaphor to explain his viewpoint

those were 2 separate points.
you just assumed they were one and the same.

Then explain specifically where he is being cagey about his reads. I don't see it and need an explanation

Weirdly urgent energy here, and he completely dips out after this and never comes back to it.

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

VP, where did I respond in bad faith to GC?

You've called his posting strawmanning and loaded questions variously, which seems combative when you could just answer the questions.

You also seem to be telling RTP to bring it. Your overall demeanor seems aggressive. Just curious if that 'fight me' attitude is common to your town play.

This is the first opinion of his own VP shares on the matter, which is based on a false premise (that I was dodging questions, when they were in fact addressed to someone else) and is an easy buzzword ("bad faith") for scum to throw at any emotionally charge town response.

Duchess is just Town here, no?

could be.

who is scum?

This entire interaction is weird. I spent a good amount of time just trying to understand what is being said. It feels very in the weeds, and that doesn't necessarily feel pro-town. The problem is all three are kind of pushing weedy stuff at points, so I have no fucking clue who could be scum if there is scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

I'm mostly thinking how IVD is interacting with the GC/Duchess fight.

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

In fairness, I've not played with scum andres, but his indecisiveness around the GC-Duchess spat vibes town with me. The way he portrayed his feelings on it defuses the situation slightly since he didn't come to a hard conclusion. He also logically explained why he thought it was TvS rather than SvS. Reminded me of town andres I've seen in the past.

Noted that you think indecisiveness around the GC-Duchess spat should be townread.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Leaving every door and window open, further exemplified by his outright refusal to elaborate on this statement.

Why are GC and RTP town?

RTP, you still think Duchess is most likely scum here?

Can you hit me with the cliff notes case?

I'm becoming increasingly confident that Italiano is scum

Not the craziest thing I've heard

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Duchess seems to have quietly drifted into the background since the fight with GC.

I don't think GC is really scummy, so yes, your analysis doesn't look great.

Finally an official stance on GC, albeit one rife with dampening words. This is a safe side to take at this point between the two of us, because it's clear not a lot of people are scumreading GC, and I hadn't been in the thread for a while. Note too how GC eventually shows up low on his townleans and I remain null, both with extremely mutable justifications ("probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased" and "still not settled on whether [Duchess's] aggression with GC was legit or fabricated").

I didn't get super scum vibes out of his fight with duchess. I can't say he has done a lot memorable since then, but I could say that about a lot of people (ahem, harumi).

All this being said, if you have a legit case on GC, let's here it when you have a chance.

More in-depth ISO to come at some point—I saw a lot that piqued my interest in there—but for now I'm off to bed. Off the top of my head, there's his fickle read of Andres that feels all kinds of manipulative, the one instance of Testa-shade was terrible and completely unsubstantiated, and there was a line of questioning aimed at his position on Italiano's readslist that reeked of bad faith. All of this on top of what's in the spoiler and what I've already pointed out, and I'm feeling quite good about where my vote is.

[Duchess]

I guess I'll quickly dump what I have in tabs before I turn in.

RTP has this utterly confident attitude like "of course I am town it would be absurd for you to question that". This is most obviously illustrated by their audacity when it comes to ignoring questions they don't feel like answering, laying these little "traps", and withholding information that they don't want to give out. This comes from a self assured town conviction, as if they don't give a shit if they do something scummy, they aren't going to be scumread because they are obviously town.

Also, they are very clearly trying to solve the game with their questioning and lines of reasoning. I'm confident that RTP is town.

I think I agree with this read, and I definitely like Lotus's thought process.

I’m really meh on VPB and I can’t say that I care that my stock is falling in their eyes. But I like VPB as a player so that’s also one I’m trying to think through a bit more.

Is it bad that I'm sensing a potential pocket/manipulation strategy from andres? Might just be me though.

And who do you think I’m trying to pocket exactly? Because if I was Scum, and I’m looking at the landscape, I would be trying to pocket those that have thrown Town Reads my way (say those that felt positively after my first real entrance), and perhaps appeasing those that know me best (excluding Koba who I know for instance is most suspicious of stuff like that). I don’t need to pocket you Harumi I’m sorry to say, particularly since you’re gathering some votes and don’t have a strong presence in the game yet.
If you’re going to throw stuff my way, I would like for you to think through what the Scum motivation is. Because right now all I’m seeing is paranoia, but not a whole lot of sense.

I like both of these posts, Andre clearly has a good head on his shoulders for this game, and his point of view seems townie here from what I can gather.

[Elements]

VOTE: VPB

[Reformed Toxic Player]

battle mage is town

They basically single-handedly moved the game and started it back up again

vpb is town

still playing in the same style that got the town read in the first place

rtp is rapidly becoming scummier

should've thought about this more before saying it. no real reason, just vibes

RL has also dropped in my reads

His iso being stagnant with reads the entire game, then when this is pointed out he comes back and starts being active in a way that to me seems like scum panic to put out good town stuff.

an interesting thought has crossed my mind. What if RL is scum, sort of just bobbing along because his scum buddies are inactive; let's say Testarossa and Dunn, then battle mage replaces one of them. Suddenly there's a turnaround in activity from both slots who co-ordinate a back and forth to make both look more towny.

Granted, that was a weird game, but BM feels very loose and natural this game to me.

yea yea, I agree with you. I don't think what I said is the case, it was just something that popped into my head

VOTE: VPB

scum slipped ^^

[Reformed Toxic Player]

u better have a good reason for this quick.

[Dunnstral]

Oh that is very interesting

[Elements]

I think VPB looks real bad from the recent VPB/Duchess interaction

[Elements]

It's VPB ignoring what Duchess has said and just trying to make them look bad

[Reformed Toxic Player]

so vpb was playing sucm instead of town then vs what u said at first?

[Elements]

so vpb was playing sucm instead of town then vs what u said at first?

rephrase?

[Reformed Toxic Player]

u have been townreading vp for their play thus far - what reframed this for u?

[Elements]

Spoiler:

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

wait - so you're jumping on vp for defending you - where from your pov it should be that duchess is scummier here for the type of shade they are pushing your way. eggsplain.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

duchess has absolutely been tunneled on you since early game - what do you make of that?

[Elements]

wait - so you're jumping on vp for defending you - where from your pov it should be that duchess is scummier here for the type of shade they are pushing your way. eggsplain.

I'm jumping of VP for misrepresenting what Duchess has been saying. The reads have nothing to do with what either of them think of me.
Why are you telling me to townread someone for defending me? Isn't that the point of white knighting (this is not what I think is happening)?
And why does someone scumming me make them scum from my pov? that's also garbage. Loads of people scum read me day 1, it's not uncommon.

[Elements]

duchess has absolutely been tunneled on you since early game - what do you make of that?

Just another in a long line of tunnelers

[Reformed Toxic Player]

no - i just think your logic is not consistent with how you have been viewing VP and that logically town you would be more skeptical of duchess based on your reads.

[Elements]

reads change

[Elements]

what are your thoughts on the VP/Duchess interaction?

[Reformed Toxic Player]

what are your thoughts on the VP/Duchess interaction?

TvT

[Elements]

is that because you went into the confrontation thinking both were town, or because you think that sort of disagreement would only stem from a tvt scenario?

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler:

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.

Oh this is fascinating. I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

Duchess' posts are a fucking incoherent mess. Without quoting duchess, I would like you to please tell me the nature of the argument duchess is making and what I'm ignoring about it. I want to see you state this originally, since you say it is very clear.

[VP Baltar]

This isn't disney world on your birthday. No free passes.

Anyhow, what do you think of Lotus' case on me?

It looked fair to me.

How did you evaluate the fairness of it if you hadn't read the ge context around the posts of mine he cited? Or did you do that too when I asked you to give your opinion on the case?

[Datisi]

i again slept less than 4 hours last night and i want to be not alive right now

why are people voting my mason buddy

what am i about to read