Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[Dunnstral]

Expecting me to always play like it's day 2/3/4 in Tenet and I have a pt with cabd/cephrir/ffery/bork is unrealistic expectations, to say the least

Most of my posts are reactionary because most of the posts in the thread are talking about me, it's really that simple.

Bork, yes we are talking past each other. I'm trying to say that it's telling that people are hounding me but not focusing on math when math is making no sense, and also that math's reason for voting me is undefined, math went on to explain something about sircakez but not why I'm there

You guys don't think I want to hold an extended conversation with sangres/prism? I feel they keep bringing the same things up which I keep explaining.

[sangres]

Still in the middle of my catchup but feeling solid with my Dunnstral vote.

The way he's approaching his extended engagements, particularly with sangres: not really acknowledging or caring where ffery is coming from when she's gone above and beyond to explain her issues with him, and acting like he has an answer for everything while she's the one in the wrong really bothers me.

In Tenet, town!Dunnstral seeked out hard town reads Deacon Blues and Dandelion Wine (who ended up being scum, but irrelevant) who he discussed EVERYTHING with, to the point that their neighborhood PT almost reached 50 pages by the end of the game. He constantly bounced ideas off of them in the neighborhood; I literally got to-the-minute play-by-plays in the scum Discord from Cabd about Dunnstral's latest theories and reads. He was always churning them out because he had a bloc he felt confident in, and obviously valued their opinions.

Where in his ISO does Dunn exhibit this desire to identify and mind meld with his town reads? I can't find anything. He lists LLD, Prism, and Bell as town reads. He has not engaged with ANY OF THEM on reads one time. Bell, one of Dunn's listed town reads, has me as his highest townread, while Dunn himself has me as one of his strongest scum reads. There's been no initiative on Dunn's end to convince Bell he's wrong, or try to engage with Bell about what he sees. Because he doesn't care about finding scum.

90% of his posts are reactionary, whether it be in response to MathBlade, ffery, myself, borkjerfkin. This isn't bad on its own, but these interactions offer no visible evaluation or desire to see where the other player is coming from, he's just getting into extended back and forths to inflate his post count and seem like he's contributing when he's not.

Everything listed above is so unlike the town!Dunnstral I have seen. He is not town here.

I want to come back to this because I don't feel like I did it justice. I feel like the comparison to Tenet is a really heavy BoP hurdle for someone to clear, especially when they get kneecapped almost immediately coming into the game.

The objective stuff you're saying - about his posts being reactionary and that it's not evident that he's trying to get into the mindset of the person who's talking to him, and he's not visibly sorting people or reaching out. That's all true.

And I was actually contrasting that to Mathblade when I was writing my responses to Tammy. The stuff that Mathblade IS doing after being kneecapped and limping around -- is the stuff that Dunnstral isn't doing.

I'm townreading Mathblade for making that effort.

My scumread of Dunn has softened because objectively from my side of what's going on, I have been nitpicking one post and the conversation that arose from questioning it. I'm still not satisfied with the answers. But, I acknowledge that it's a nit. I feel like Dunn's reactions weren't good, weren't productive, didn't help me see his thought process, and didn't involve him digging to understand my thought process.

I feel like you've maybe painted my side of the argument in too good a light. Because I like thinking of the argument in those terms, but that's not how I saw it when I was trying to see things from Dunn's described headspace and see why he'd react to my questions the way he did.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Sircakez

I prefer this to Titus but don't mind the Titus wagon either

lol Dunn has there ever been a game where you didn't say my ISO was bad and want to mis-elim me?

Kind of a good point

This is the absolute biggest Dunn scum tell I can think of.

He realized I am not happening today.

Instead of voting Titus who he’s had a general sus of he votes SirCakez of whom the closest direct explanation I can find is he hates post 164. Sure he’s been consistent in having SirCakez as a scumread but never actually doing anything about it.

Dunn + Titus with (maybe BM) lock imho

If BM happens to be town swap BM out with Grey as I think maaaaybe Pooky finally realizes what I am doing I hope.

If not oh well gotta be more scummy I guess?

[Dunnstral]

This is the absolute biggest Dunn scum tell I can think of.

At this point you're just making things up.

Otherwise can you back this up somehow?

[MathBlade]

Anyway, I really don't like mastina's flavor-case. It takes a cartoonish oversimplification of HG to call her a baddie IMO, given how evil and twisted the antagonists of that series are.

You apparently are forgetting that HG Wells's goal was

literally to destroy the world

, and that, through outwitting, outmaneuvering, the heroes, through manipulation, deceit, experience, and sheer ruthlessness, almost succeeded. And the only thing causing her to have not succeeded was Myka talking her out of it; Myka, in of herself, couldn't stop HG Wells, because HG Wells had

won

.

During her tenure as an antagonist, she WAS genuinely evil and twisted. She was sympathetic (tho that's not a trait unique to her as an antagonist; I recall the first Big Bad was also fairly sympathetic especially near the end), and more sympathetic than most villains, and the parallels of her and Myka did lead to her redemption (similar to how, had she not outright murdered the first Big Bad, it was possible his parallels to Artie could've led to his potential redemption), but she WAS a villain for a full season, and thus calling her town for what she ended up being at the end is a mistake.

I happen to believe, given the flavor and mechanics of the game, that it is more likely she is scum than that she is town.

It's almost as bad as calling Artie a likely scum role because of what using Magellan's Astrolabe did to him.

And why do you think that

isn't

a possibility?

Sure, it ultimately is penguin's decision, it's ultimately penguin's choice, penguin_alien very well may have opted not to do so and if so there would be reasonably good reasons for it, because Artie wasn't a villain for all but one season.

But it is ultimately penguin's decision, and Artie very well

could

be a villain, specifically thanks to a flavor justification OF using what Magellan's Astrolabe did to him. He, Artie, literally killed one of the supporting, borderline-main-characters, characters, one of the first to die in the show and one who was literally irreplaceable thanks to their unique talent. He orchestrated a bunch of very bad things that happened thanks to that artefact's influence, and was, essentially, thanks to the delusions/brainwashing of that artifact, essentially the (unwitting) Big Bad of a full season.

You can make the argument either way--Artie could be town for his overall presence as a hero, or Artie could be scum for his tenure as an (unwitting) Big Bad-tier villain who did absolutely atrocious acts.

If someone does end up claiming to be Artie, I would do the obvious: judge whether they are more likely to be town or scum off of their claimed role and crossreferencing it to the game's mechanics AND the flavor backing it. If I thought that it was more likely Artie was scum, I would vote him; if I thought it was more likely that this was Artie as town, I would defend him.

And that's true of Prism. I understand the flavor behind why HG Wells would be town--I am also intimately familiar with the flavor behind why she would be scum. And I am judging the claim of Prism being HG Wells and whether they are more likely to be town or scum off of their claimed role and crossreferencing it to the game's mechanic and the flavor backing it.

And it makes a LOT more sense for Prism to be scum starting with the trident than it does for Prism to be town starting with it.

Tell me: during what period in the show does HG Wells own the trident? Is it during her time as a hero, or a villain?
Tell me: during the pregame, which faction do we know started with artifacts from the game mechanics?
Tell me: on the show, was the trident an artifact used by the heroes or an artifact used by the villains? (Okay this one I admit I don't remember the exact answer to but I remember at least one villain who used it.)

Dunn Titus Mastina GreyICE?

Hey Mastina that’s a lot of words for what is likely a shit read and not talking about what’s going on here.

[Dunnstral]

He realized I am not happening today.

Also if you really want to make it a 1v1 we can? You don't win this. I moved off because you reached out to me and I bought into the sort of same crowd pushing the both of us

[mastina]

@Mastina

Can you elaborate on your early read of Tammy as town?

In the part of the Tammy post you

didn't

quote, you have the answer:

If you read me based on how I looked at the game, explained my reads, or those things that are mindset tells, those still apply.

I am townreading Tammy for how she looks at the game, explains her reads, and her mindset during this game.

She's radiating town energy in a way I don't think she can as scum.

One is the point against them saying that they're being more abrasive this game on purpose and your argument is that 9 times out of 10, that comes from scum. However, you called my first post town, and my first post talked about meta and how some of my meta didn't apply anymore.

There's a fundamental difference between "Hi I am a player who has been active onsite and I am deliberately choosing to be different this game" (Prism) and "Hi I am a player who has been inactive onsite and I am probably very different to how I used to be, albeit not consciously so" (You).

I don't think for a second, the mods make this game breakable by flavor, and if scum Prism was given that as a fake claim, probably, which means it wasn't meant to be alignment indicative anyway.

It not being breakable by flavor and it not being innately hard-alignment-indicative does not mean that, when crossreferenced and combined with setup spec based off of known mechanics and known reads, you can't generate a read.

[Dunnstral]

and didn't involve him digging to understand my thought process.

I don't scumread you and have no interest in your thought process

I'm focused on too many other things right now to get into fine details like that. There's too many other people I need to pay attention to.

[MathBlade]

This is the absolute biggest Dunn scum tell I can think of.

At this point you're just making things up.

Otherwise can you back this up somehow?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10224670

Example meta very similar to this game.

You forget I am not focused on winning.

If I die and prove you scum win win.

A top townread says you’re scum.

We need day to end.

No one is championing a fucking wagon.

So yes if LLD says I have to have my vote on Mastina while I try to convince LLD you’re the smart play I will.

[MathBlade]

So the better question is do YOU want to 1v1 obvTown with obvTownSpiffeh 100% certain you’re scum.

[MathBlade]

Now I think that meta and post is a damn fine case for LLD who likes meta.

Good flippin night.

[Dunnstral]

viewtopic.php?p=10224670#p10224670

Example meta very similar to this game.

What am I looking at here?

[Dunnstral]

I happen to think my play in that game looks nothing like my play in this game.

If you're pointing to just that post, I don't see the argument you're making BUT the fact that you're even looking there is +town I guess. This game is also almost 3 years old, by the way, I don't think it would be good meta even if it were accurate (and it's not)

[mastina]

And equally I could say that posting "no content now, I'll catch up soon promise!" Is a scumtell, because, well, it is.

Eh, I don't think it is. It can be for specific players, yes, myself among them (tho given as how this is not the only game I was neglecting you can be pretty damn well assured that in this case it wasn't one even tho I am quite aware of how the tell can apply to me but obviously I can't elaborate here as much as I would prefer to), but in general I don't think "no content, will catch up later" is a scumtell.

you've been on this site for how long? you know how flavor -> role mapping generally works in that it's not usually reverse engineered with that kind of brush
that character goes in the bucket of "things town gets / scum gets as fakeclaims" and not "things scum gets"

It is specifically because of my experience that I can see that flavor rolemapping trajectory as a scum realclaim, disguised as a fakeclaim of being a town realclaim.

We don't know how the scum's fakeclaims are structured. If there's a character who's obviously and unambiguously a scum flavor and they are scum, I'd imagine their safeclaim is of a different character flavor, sure. But if a character's flavor is not clearly scum and in fact can easily be town, what stops the mod from having their safeclaim be the same role flavor as their real role, just from their tenure as a hero rather than a villain?

To go to sangres's Archie example--if Archie were a scum flavor (due to his time corrupted), why would the mod need to give Archie a safeclaim of a flavor of a different character, when Archie as a safeclaim flavor during his tenure as a hero is arguably a better claim?

Or, hey.

Even if the mod did give the scum fakeclaims of a different flavor. Again, let's go to sangres's Archie example. If Archie were scum with a fakeclaim of (some random character from the show), why can't the scum, with Archie as their real flavor, decide to discard their (some random character from the show) safeclaim flavor and invent their own realclaim with Archie due to knowing Archie's a hero more than he isn't?

Same applies to Prism: why can't Prism, as scum, with a scum flavor of HG Wells, yet a fakeclaim of (some random character), decide "screw claiming (some random character), I wanna claim HG Wells because I know flavorwise that's plausibly town"?
Why can't Prism, as scum, with a scum flavor of HG Wells (during her tenure as a villain), have a legit fakeclaim of...HG Wells, during her tenure as a hero?

Prism has already admitted to being familiar with the flavor and knowing that their claim is not one that is, inherently, town.

And from mechanical clues combined with indicators from play, I think that this is a scum claim. I recognize why it could be town, but the circumstantial clues point to it being scum.

she saved Myka

can't be all that bad then huh mastina?

Your lack of flavor knowledge is showing; I am fairly certain that when she saved Myka, it was part of her scheme to manipulate Myka during a time she was trying to position herself in a way where she could acquire the trident for the aforementioned world-destroying that she basically succeeded at (if not for Myka talking her down from it). I admit that my memory isn't perfect from that season, but I distinctly recall that at least one of the times she 'saved' Myka, it was explicitly part of her Evil Plan.

[MathBlade]

*pushes up glasses*

Um actually it’s Artie.

Look a spammy filler post.

*Male Karen voice* Stop trying to make Prism a thing Mastina.

[mastina]

someone talk to me about the game, something interesting and fresh.

I mean I wasn't in the game for 37 pages so I am inherently interesting and fresh compared to those who were, but I'm mastina so something tells me the offer doesn't extend to me.

Oh, but I will happily flashwagon Mastina to death if people want. Cause she apprently got time to hyper post in other games but not the time to do anything except suck horrendously in this one

I can only post in one game at a time, LLD. I make my rounds in each game. The order I do so is basically up to my whims, essentially random, but once I am IN a game and playing it, I will continue to be caught up and active in that game.

I am here now, because I am making my daily rounds and this game is here...second I think? It could be first tomorrow or it could be third tomorrow or it could be fourth tomorrow, who the fuck knows, I certainly don't. But the order in which I choose to attend to a game is not alignment indicative. Nor is posting in one game, being thought of as suspicious in a different game for posting in that one game, then showing up in that different game and posting there after said suspicions are aired.

When I am in more than one game, ALL of them need my attention. But I can only attend to one at a time. So long as each game gets attended to, I have done my job in each of them. The order I do so is subject to my whims and what I fancy, which is often influenced by my mood behind the screen--in the example of today for instance, I very much don't really want to be posting today, but I decided that I needed to post today in spite of my lack of desire to do so. When not in the mood to post today, posting in a game where I don't have many thoughts to vocalize (this game) wasn't how I felt like starting my mafiascum day.

But obviously this is toeing a sacred line so I shouldn't really expound on this further, but it SHOULD be self-evidently true even without me doing so.

[GreyICE]

And equally I could say that posting "no content now, I'll catch up soon promise!" Is a scumtell, because, well, it is.

Eh, I don't think it is. It can be for specific players, yes, myself among them (tho given as how this is not the only game I was neglecting you can be pretty damn well assured that in this case it wasn't one even tho I am quite aware of how the tell can apply to me but obviously I can't elaborate here as much as I would prefer to), but in general I don't think "no content, will catch up later" is a scumtell.

I'd elaborate on why you're wrong on this, but that'd be distracting from the fact that everything below it was low quality. And I don't mean my ongoing joke(not a joke) about your read list being upside down, I mean it's just low quality. Even if it explained an initial scumread on Prism, it wouldn't explain what he's doing now that maintained that scumread. And while I agree people's alignment doesn't change mid-day 1 (usually) even in your entire long wallpost the only conclusion you reached was "it's more likely to come from scum than town."

What's he done since then that should make us want to lynch him? Because unless this tell is 100% "if this guy is town then lynch me immediately day 2" levels then you should be looking at their play AFTER the 'scummy thing'. 'I think that flavor sounds scummy' is a great reason for a page 5 wagon. Absolutely tits, love it. As a page 45 wagon, it lacks something. That "something" is "any fucking reason anyone would agree with you."

BUT

At a bare minimum, lets say everything I wrote is trash above. Complete, worthless trash, and you are 100% certain he's scum based on that.

You presented that like 10 pages ago. No one agreed with you. You're not going to get a Prism wagon with that logic. Period.

So is your intention here to post all this and... not get Prism lynched? Do you actually want us to vote Prism? Because if you do, this is convincing no one. And worse, by going back to it a second time it looks like it's not meant to convince anyone.

Got anything more?

[mastina]

Hey Mastina that’s a lot of words for what is likely a shit read and not talking about what’s going on here.

It's far from a shit read.

It's the read I feel I most need to explain. I don't need to explain my SirCakez scumread (tho I would if asked) because people just ~get~ where I'm coming from there.
I don't need to explain my quiet scumread (tho I have half done so and would go all the way there if asked) because people have a fairly good idea where I'm coming from there.
I don't need to explain why I have my suspicions about you (tho I kinda touched on them and would do so fully if asked) because people just ~get~ where I'm coming from there.

I DO need to explain my Prism read because it's NOT a shit read and DOES have good reason behind it...but unlike the other three reads, it goes against thread consensus so I need to explain why Prism is scum in a way that I don't for my other reads.

Prism isn't inherently scum for their flavor claim.
Prism isn't inherently scum for their mechanical claim of VT that started with a trident.
Prism does look like scum for the deliberate playstyle choice, but that one point isn't a 100% scumtell even if it is a 90% scumtell.
Prism isn't inherently scum for having done nothing which looks town at all this game in spite of the activity.

But when you combine ALL of them together, all the circumstantial evidence suggests Prism is actually scum.
You may note I'm not actually voting Prism, because I am aware that selling people on Prism D1 is a tough sell. I don't exactly have the credibility and influence to push it through. Plus, on play-based merits, Prism isn't actually my strongest scumread. (That'd be SirCakez.) But I absolutely

should

explain my Prism scumread because if I don't, I'll never have anyone follow me because they won't see where I'm coming from.

[GreyICE]

actually my strongest scumread. (That'd be SirCakez.) But I absolutely

should

explain my Prism scumread because if I don't, I'll never have anyone follow me because they won't see where I'm coming from.

hol up

You're making a case on your

second

strongest scumread?

Don't tell me it's for posterity, if you're nightkilled tonight after this day 1 then a choir of angels will come out my butt to play Taps on the way to the dead thread.

[MathBlade]

actually my strongest scumread. (That'd be SirCakez.) But I absolutely

should

explain my Prism scumread because if I don't, I'll never have anyone follow me because they won't see where I'm coming from.

hol up

You're making a case on your

second

strongest scumread?

Don't tell me it's for posterity, if you're nightkilled tonight after this day 1 then a choir of angels will come out my butt to play Taps on the way to the dead thread.

Hey hey!

She’s doing the thing Dunn is!

You know voting someone else and talking about someone else despite someone else voting SirCakez who she townreads...and she’s spamming the thread with all theses posts about Prism which won’t happen today.

Almost like Mastina and Dunn are scum!

There isn’t a single reason in Mastina’s ISO for her Cakez read...none

[MathBlade]

The who she townreads is the voter to be clear*

[mastina]

hol up
You're making a case on your

second

strongest scumread?

Overall second strongest, yes.
Play-based Prim's actually either third- or fourth-strongest, since aside from the 9/10-times-a-scumtell deliberate-playstyle-difference-announcement, nothing Prism's said has been play-wise indicative of either alignment. Aside from that one comment, Prism's play is explicitly null through and through.

But between mechanics and that one comment and the fact that Prism IS null in play through and through (which in of itself can be a scumtell), Prism is my second-strongest scumread.

But if I don't explain the scumread on Prism when people keep laughing at me for having it, it's not possible to convince them that I'm right.

Don't tell me it's for posterity, if you're nightkilled tonight after this day 1 then a choir of angels will come out my butt to play Taps on the way to the dead thread.

I don't fear being nightkilled in this playerlist; given this playerlist, there's less than a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

I do fear the people who I could convince that I am right on Prism being nightkilled.

As in, if I don't convince people on Prism today, to at least consider that I'm right in where I am coming from, I'm afraid that the people who would be most receptive to my read will die.

Keep in mind: I don't expect to ever be sheeped, I don't expect to ever be followed, I don't have that pull, I don't have that charisma. But if someone else who WAS charismatic with that push decided to push Prism, then they COULD get that following--and if I manage to convince them that I am onto something, then THEY can convince others that they, and by proxy, I, am right.

But the players who're likely to work with me on my Prism read, who're likely to see where I am coming from, listen to it, seriously consider it, and agree with it, who have the charisma to convince people who will never listen to me and will always ignore me...

...Are incredibly likely to be the N1 nightkill.

So yes.

I need to case Prism. Because if I don't convince people today, chances are nobody will listen to me at all on the read for the rest of the game due to the players most willing to dieing N1.

There's good reason that in spite of my efforts to case Prism, my vote is elsewhere.

[GreyICE]

Hey, um, I haven't checked a vote count, but Cakez is at L-infinity. Unless something changes, he's not gonna get lynched today either.

At this point you're claiming to ignore where your vote is (a useless wagon) to tell us something about Prism that you already told us, but this time... more so?

You sure you didn't just check your own ISO in the middle of writing all that Prism stuff and go "oh shit my vote is actually on Cakez" and then think "but it'd look scummy to change it"? Because that logic makes a lot more sense than the line you're peddling now. It makes perfect sense, with one starting assumption.

[mastina]

(Btw it might help people to know something. I have two dominant 'drivers' in my head, one I loosely refer to as 'mastina' and the other I loosely refer to as a different name. In mafia games we share duties, both prominently posting a lot, but right now there is a very very very strong domination of the non-mastina driver. It's been a while since she's been the one doing the majority of the work, since 'mastina' is usually the main driver with her as the secondary driver but for some reason she's actually at the forefront this game with mastina being the secondary driver. I legit dunno why she's more involved this game but I can

tell

that she IS. Neurological thing, hard to explain but it's very much there. I didn't realize this until just as I was leaving to try and hydrate; I literally left in the middle of making coffee to come here and post this since I just now made that realization.)

Hey, um, I haven't checked a vote count, but Cakez is at L-infinity. Unless something changes, he's not gonna get lynched today either.

He's gotten two or three votes with players widely suspicious of him beyond those who have voted him already. I remain optimistic on that front.

If needed, I can put in the effort necessary to explain why he is my strongest overall scumread, but right now given that others have more or less seen the same (is literally anyone other than MathBlade--who is only doing so from an alleged townslip--townreading SirCakez?), there's just not a need to put the time/effort into casing SirCakez.

If I ever feel there IS a need, then I WILL case SirCakez, but right now I don't feel there is so my efforts are best served explaining where I am coming from on Prism.

to tell us something about Prism that you already told us, but this time... more so?

Yes, with clarity given that people's doubts from my case are based on faulty assumptions on their part; I clarified their assumptions and better explained where I am coming from with more clarity.

You sure you didn't just check your own ISO in the middle of writing all that Prism stuff and go "oh shit my vote is actually on Cakez" and then think "but it'd look scummy to change it"?

I've zero fear of ever changing my vote nor would I ever be unaware of where it is. I've no fear of changing my vote to Prism and have been perfectly aware that my vote's on SirCakez in spite of casing Prism.

But I already explained why I'm not voting Prism; voting Prism may be a statement of the scumread, but is a waste because I'm not going to convince people to eliminate Prism, AND voting Prism isn't voting for my strongest scumread because in spite of my case against Prism, Prism isn't my strongest scumread.

[GreyICE]

Okay then, since you brought him up, lets address the elephant in the room.

Because right now you seem to be soft tossing out alternatives to the Mathblade wagon without voting Mathblade, and without really giving an opinion on Mathblade's wagon. Or Titus'. Meanwhile Mathblade is calling you obvscum and wants your head. Apparently. As of like literally the last page or something.

To say this doesn't look good is understating it a bit. What's your opinion on Mathblade, the current fucking wagon?

I'm really trying hard not to scumread you for 'playstyle differences' but I honestly don't grasp what you're doing and how it's town here. While if I look at you as scum, it makes a surprising amount of sense.