Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[borkjerfkin]

Even so, I like this pace. I feel like everyone should be able to keep up with the game and if we do have replacements it won't be a Sisyphean ordeal to get into the game.

said this much better than i could. i started out two days behind but i've never felt like it's been a chore to catch up here

[borkjerfkin]

Dunn is still my desired lim but no one seems to care that much and it's not helpful to keep screaming into the void.

there are a couple things in the 11xx range and some interactions that is just making me not want to go here today.

[MathBlade]

I used less words, but you demanded I use more words. Normally I would have ignored the request.
I do not create nor ever want to create associations and a full team solve. The more assumptions I make the more likely I am to make a mistake. I keep that sort of effort for elo.

For example say I'm wrong on you and you aren't scum which isn't even that unlikely just from a random dice roll perspective.
Why would I argue you were partnered with X, when I don't even know you're scum yet? Why go through the extra effort of doing so?
I also don't care how far down your read of me goes. If I did, I wouldn't be scum reading you or anyone at all unless they're into that.

I've explained what is shallow about your reasoning in regards to how you recognize and approach people you think are PR's. I accused you of having shallow thoughts. If you had deep motivations you would presumably share them at my prompting. This is not a demand for you to share every single thing that pops into your head (please don't). It is an observation that when I look at your approach I don't see a style of thoughtfulness. In every game you've played as scum with me (except Cell games) you've had town's people point at you and say "you aren't thinking good, but I think you're town, here's how to think better." They're the suckers that keep you alive well past when you should live.

You are capable of having a deeper rationale an explaining yourself, you even do it automatically in some of your scum PT's. I'm tired of putting a hedge at the end of every post, so just assume I said, "and I know mathblade could be town here, because I've never played with town him" after every post.

1) Yes I asked you to use more words and less words. What I am getting at is you being able to case effectively. Teaching how to case with new players and what is convincing is a lost skill on MS.

2) It’s not about a mistake it’s about viability. Notice my PoE has more than 4 people yet there are exactly four mafia. A good way to determine if you’re tunnelled is to see who the person could be reliably paired with. If you can’t pair the person with anyone it shows A) your read might be wrong or B) reads on others might be wrong.

3) About the arguing of who I would be paired with is because I (if I was scum which I am not) almost never do something without gain. Once someone is scumread and/or flips scum the why matters especially if they were a townread or if they were lock scum and flipped town why did butting heads occur. Your posts lack that fundamental function/explanation.

4) Deep/shallow has no meaning to me without context. I am an Aspie and it’s a hollow word. The deepest of thoughts can be expressed with a word and the most shallow with a lot (this is what I am trying to work with you on).

5) Coaching is something I try to do in every game regardless of alignment because it makes MS better as a whole. Yes if I was scum it would be in a way that would be helpful to my wincon but almost never dishonest. MS being better as a whole is something that makes games more fun. The reason I didn’t in Cell games I cannot talk about yet but rest assured had I the spoons I would have. Assuming I am vigged and flip town, this advice only helps you when you’re eventually right. The paranoia you have over my slot is good and I encourage it.

6) The “suckers” (your words not mine) are ones that have bought into a narrative I paint when scum or when scum explode. Take a look at Boonskiies. I was set to bus Gamma for a view days. This did not happen because town ate itself alive and I didn’t stop it despite knowing mom and such. In Cell games, I went guilty guilty guilty on G but never asked who with. That was the scum claim that game.

You have some time to learn me and why and I doubt I make it near elo. Using this time to make an actual case even if you never post it helps.

Eg Math almost never jokes or memes. Why would he do it as scum? As town? Math attacked X, why? Math defended Z, why? Math was emotional why?

The why question will help elim me as any alignment. Granted I am town here but if you push me that “why” has to be stronger than the narrative you believe scum!me has done. It’s those words you should use.

Eg Math was survivalistic >> Why? He could paint someone else as scum and go down and get free miselims out of it ( Boonskiies game sorry Titus ), if you think I am scum why? Why? Why? This will net you more reads and/or make you realize I am town and your read is dumb. This is win win.

The more you poke me and try to answer that question you will realize points you were deluded on when I flip town. It’s never not a good thing to ask why. You’ve never addressed that far as I can tell.

[borkjerfkin]

Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

I agree that he's playing this differently than the newbie y'all were in from some brief reading after it ended when the Discord was singing your praises, but the fact that this is an inactivity replace we're dealing w/ and not an actual replace out, and also considering that quiet's only really active period in this game was over a course of two days, I think muddies the waters considerably.

I don't see a world where I wouldn't want to give that slot a day.

[borkjerfkin]

My townread on Titus is strong enough that I am willing to take some heat off of her onto myself to save her.

Why? your early reads list had her in a tier2 with a tier1 that was a list of a lot of people. What happened between that and 1541

[MathBlade]

My townread on Titus is strong enough that I am willing to take some heat off of her onto myself to save her.

Why? your early reads list had her in a tier2 with a tier1 that was a list of a lot of people. What happened between that and 1541

Take this post by Bork for example.

Prism scum would necessitate Bork scum as I said earlier. If Bork is scum then he has a vested interest in poking Mastina about her Titus read. This means he has a interest in town focusing here. This would mean that Bork and Mastina would be unaligned as he’s questioning her Titus read. However if Titus is scum then Bork scum becomes likely. But with how Mastina defended Titus rather weirdly ( hence moving my vote back to Titus) Bork scum becomes incredibly unlikely. This spiraling back makes Prism scum unlikely.

This is the kind of thing I do as town and posting it would just have people go “moonlogic” which is just something people say when they don’t want to think about the implications or what I am saying or ask a question about what they don’t understand.

One post can solidify many different reads.

Hence Mastina + Titus pretty likely. Mastina + trying to manipulate onto Titus is possible but with Titus’s defeatism I am at the point of so? Titus would be scum beard anyway doing their bidding.

You on the other hand don’t explore the game so assuming a majority half+ of my reads are true, you trying to shade me to make me look bad is in my PoE still. Granted I don’t think it’s likely you do this without coaching from a Mastina/Titus/(redacted) but the worry is there.

[MathBlade]

Now expand upon Dunn, BM, Titus, LLD, and you (Bell). The ISOs here have a unilateral focus on me. Almost no focus elsewhere. LLD is a known mason, and I know I am town. This tells me a majority of scum are likely in that pool because they aren’t discussing anywhere else with the exception of a few external posts by Dunn. This also tells me likely they are trying to be in LLD’s pocket.

Now combine that with Mastina’s relentless attack on Prism. This tells me Mastina fears Prism town and has been assigned the “buddy Math” and his crazy theories spot of scum if it’s Mastina +Titus. The majority of the game thinks Prism is town so if Mastina is scum nothing is lost. If Mastina is somehow scum with Prism (doubtful but possible) then this is a net gain.

Mastina not doing a readwall is also rather damning as she almost always does this as town.

Quiet I waffle on because he is wordy as town but it could be a site flake could be scum.

But a majority of the players are doing infighting which sucks. So my efforts are to prevent TVT more than my entire solve as I have faith if I die there’s good scum hunters in the block.

[Bell]

That's a single narrative spin when there are branching narratives and explanations for your observations.
Your premises and conclusions aren't rigorous enough. In part because there isn't enough information to make an informed decision or rather the relevant information has not come to your attention.
For example, if you knew every role in this game but not who is aligned with which role, you'd probably be able to make a fair guess as to whether Prism was scum or not.
There is the question of habit and approach to people based on their scum play. For example, my one recent experience with Bork is that he's tough on wording, but asks relatively shallow questions to his scum partners. He makes sure to interact with them, but he doesn't make them a hard focus. So for example if he kept talking and talking with Mastina you could argue that the probability that Mastina and bork are scum together is less than random. But the pool of data is too small and people do stuff differently each game so really I just used a flimsy anecdote and overgeneralized Bork's behavior toward his partners. My premise is shit, so my conclusion is also shit.

[Dunnstral]

Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

I agree that he's playing this differently than the newbie y'all were in from some brief reading after it ended when the Discord was singing your praises, but the fact that this is an inactivity replace we're dealing w/ and not an actual replace out, and also considering that quiet's only really active period in this game was over a course of two days, I think muddies the waters considerably.

I don't see a world where I wouldn't want to give that slot a day.

Yes I agree with this

Now expand upon Dunn, BM, Titus, LLD, and you (Bell). The ISOs here have a unilateral focus on me. Almost no focus elsewhere. LLD is a known mason, and I know I am town. This tells me a majority of scum are likely in that pool because they aren’t discussing anywhere else with the exception of a few external posts by Dunn.

Less than half of my iso is about you

[SirCakez]

The reason I'm meh on Titus elim is because I'm just not convinced that this is scum, I don't have anything other than their sort of weird play.

What does this even mean

[Prism]

I'm going to be honest I am burnt out and just don't want to beat my head against a wall about this game, other days I was tired but today I just decided "Naw, I'm playing video games instead"

Spitballing w/o even rereading I'd rather Math/mastina, Titus is anti-town with their play-not that she doesn't have factors that significantly contribute-but idk. Felt town all early game, she goes off the rails when she starts obsessing over patronizing MathBlade/shitting on LLD. Mastina scum here doesn't white knight this slot into an autoelim tomorrow but 100% white knights that and pushes me/Math for insurance.

That said if I'm going to spitball all week and not do serious research even when it's blatantly required, what the fuck are my opinions worth anyway?

[Prism]

Didn't really check/revise that post, Mastinascum doesn't white knight Titus scum today, not with the 1v1 she's currently picking, but does white knight Titus town to use as leverage.

Mastina scum is already somewhat tenuous.

[sangres]

I'm thinking about switching our vote to Mathblade.

Will do some rereading, and maybe Nacho will show up and talk me out of it.

[Prism]

Here I think he got outright overwhelmed and intimidated by the strength of the table as scum

I agree that he's playing this differently than the newbie y'all were in from some brief reading after it ended when the Discord was singing your praises, but the fact that this is an inactivity replace we're dealing w/ and not an actual replace out, and also considering that quiet's only really active period in this game was over a course of two days, I think muddies the waters considerably.

I don't see a world where I wouldn't want to give that slot a day.

I don't draw a big distinction between the inactivity vs. fear replaceouts, though I get hypothetically why one would. At the end of the day absence of content is always going to be really murky.

Had a post where I voted MathBlade just for my mastina/Math instinct but rigor has just gone straight out the window this game and I'm playing like trash

P-Edit: lmao good timing

[Tammy]

The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

Are you referring to the post restriction? And if you read me as scum after we claimed IC, I don't think you have a handle on what town me looks like, don't think you'd be able to tell in more posts, and I'm not going to go all scary-face to get you to read me correctly. But if you are referring to the post restriction. The only thing that the post restriction has done is had me put together posts into one that I wouldn't normally bother with. I'd still have not been around much this week because I was busy with work stuff.

~~~

Ffery - I think maybe I understand where you got your original thought? When I mentioned not having you as town to town paean level, it was just a reference of my strength of read. In Tenet, when you made the town paean post, I knew you were town. I got paranoid here and there even after we died when I was somewhat keeping up in case we came back, but I always came back to that post as my tether for me just knowing you were town. So, when I referenced that it just meant that my strength of read was not what it was in Tenet, and I wouldn't want what pushed you to that reaction for me to have that kind of safety in a read.

I just wouldn't bet the game on any of my reads right this moment.

How do you feel about bork?

pedit: that's a total mood. Also don't bet on nacho right this minute. He wanted to "take a nap" a few hours ago because he's got a weird schedule tomorrow and I tried to wake him up from said nap and his response was something like why fight the inevitable or some shit like that. He'll probably do something stupid like wake up at 3 am and totally fuck himself over for work, so maybe you hear from him then.

[sangres]

The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

Are you referring to the post restriction? And if you read me as scum after we claimed IC, I don't think you have a handle on what town me looks like, don't think you'd be able to tell in more posts, and I'm not going to go all scary-face to get you to read me correctly. But if you are referring to the post restriction. The only thing that the post restriction has done is had me put together posts into one that I wouldn't normally bother with. I'd still have not been around much this week because I was busy with work stuff.

~~~

Ffery - I think maybe I understand where you got your original thought? When I mentioned not having you as town to town paean level, it was just a reference of my strength of read. In Tenet, when you made the town paean post, I knew you were town. I got paranoid here and there even after we died when I was somewhat keeping up in case we came back, but I always came back to that post as my tether for me just knowing you were town. So, when I referenced that it just meant that my strength of read was not what it was in Tenet, and I wouldn't want what pushed you to that reaction for me to have that kind of safety in a read.

I just wouldn't bet the game on any of my reads right this moment.

How do you feel about bork?

pedit: that's a total mood. Also don't bet on nacho right this minute. He wanted to "take a nap" a few hours ago because he's got a weird schedule tomorrow and I tried to wake him up from said nap and his response was something like why fight the inevitable or some shit like that. He'll probably do something stupid like wake up at 3 am and totally fuck himself over for work, so maybe you hear from him then.

I had this moment earlier today where I asked myself if there's an unequivocally town post in bork's iso to hold onto and pin down this cloud of a read I have right now, and I felt like maybe there isn't. And then he made a post that was a new thought -- a new question that nobody else had asked and I hadn't thought to ask myself and I thought "there he is! and oh look, he's asking a trajectory^tm question!"

And then Math came in and dumped on it and used it to chain bork and Titus together (with Prism?) and to push the idea of bork and mastina as partners apart.

Like there's not a world where bork just noticed the discrepancy and questioned Mastina.

Anyway, bork still worries me a little. He feels distant, maybe preoccupied.

And yeah, that is a mood. I feel like I've been in too much of a holding pattern, when I should just play onward and sync if and when.

Bell's made some decent points and my read's grown shakier over time, not stronger.

[Bell]

Ngl, though it defeats my purpose.
I'm getting shakier too.

My feelings on Bork can be summarized as a blank face.

Yeah, your posts are longer Tammy. I don't think you've been inactive at all though, that's not what I meant. I tend to think that players make slightly longer, less frequent posts compared to their town selves as scum. But yeah, I have little to no confidence I can read you.
I think I'm the only one Sring KTT. They're putting in a lot of effort though. So maybe I'm just hallucinating.

[MathBlade]

The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

Are you referring to the post restriction? And if you read me as scum after we claimed IC, I don't think you have a handle on what town me looks like, don't think you'd be able to tell in more posts, and I'm not going to go all scary-face to get you to read me correctly. But if you are referring to the post restriction. The only thing that the post restriction has done is had me put together posts into one that I wouldn't normally bother with. I'd still have not been around much this week because I was busy with work stuff.

~~~

Ffery - I think maybe I understand where you got your original thought? When I mentioned not having you as town to town paean level, it was just a reference of my strength of read. In Tenet, when you made the town paean post, I knew you were town. I got paranoid here and there even after we died when I was somewhat keeping up in case we came back, but I always came back to that post as my tether for me just knowing you were town. So, when I referenced that it just meant that my strength of read was not what it was in Tenet, and I wouldn't want what pushed you to that reaction for me to have that kind of safety in a read.

I just wouldn't bet the game on any of my reads right this moment.

How do you feel about bork?

pedit: that's a total mood. Also don't bet on nacho right this minute. He wanted to "take a nap" a few hours ago because he's got a weird schedule tomorrow and I tried to wake him up from said nap and his response was something like why fight the inevitable or some shit like that. He'll probably do something stupid like wake up at 3 am and totally fuck himself over for work, so maybe you hear from him then.

I had this moment earlier today where I asked myself if there's an unequivocally town post in bork's iso to hold onto and pin down this cloud of a read I have right now, and I felt like maybe there isn't. And then he made a post that was a new thought -- a new question that nobody else had asked and I hadn't thought to ask myself and I thought "there he is! and oh look, he's asking a trajectory^tm question!"

And then Math came in and dumped on it and used it to chain bork and Titus together (with Prism?) and to push the idea of bork and mastina as partners apart.

Like there's not a world where bork just noticed the discrepancy and questioned Mastina.

Anyway, bork still worries me a little. He feels distant, maybe preoccupied.

And yeah, that is a mood. I feel like I've been in too much of a holding pattern, when I should just play onward and sync if and when.

Bell's made some decent points and my read's grown shakier over time, not stronger.

Pedit: You’re missing the entire point.
My point was showing Bell how that analysis would work.
If you get to the end you see that Bork + Prism isn’t a thing and it’s likely Bork did just that.

[Titus]

If I can find the motivation, I'll case SirCakez and quiet.

I'm not as sure on quiet scum but SirCakez is definitely deflecting attention away from a slot under no pressure. It also likely won't be made to catch up either. So why does Cakez need to defend quiet?

[Kitty Trauma Team]

I typed this up in the hydra PT but then decided fuck it, it can go here

Here's what I have for Titus's ISO:

0- She isn't sure how we bronze scum, indicating she probably didn't read the part of the rules that says we're in a multi-part day phase. Right off the bat, I can tell you I don't see scum faking this. I don't see town faking this. I believe she was genuinely not understanding.

1- RVS vote on Battle Mage.

2- Another post not understanding the rules. She states that scum probably know what the artifacts do, but MY understanding is that they only know the nature of the artifacts IF they possess them at some point. You can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I actually think this is highly town indicative. I don't think she makes this post pretending as scum not to know the rule, there isn't enough benefit from it.

3- Definitely did not read the rules, didn't know about the confirmation phrase.

4- Confirms she hasn't read the rules, sets forth a plan about leadership as if such a thing is possible in this player list.

5- Calls Math's suspicions post gibberish

6- Says it's too early to get a read on Nacho and ffery (agreed)

7- calls Math town, admits she could be wrong

8- Agrees with Spiffeh that Math is town

9- Questions me why I took exception to the use of the word meltdown.

10- Votes Prism to receive the artifact because she's sheeping Tammy

11- Asks Math which post she missed

12- Apologizes for interrupting my interrogation by questioning me. It annoyed me at the time because I had a good reason for asking, and I don't believe I should ever be held accountable for anything I say or do in a game. But more importantly, she broke up my rhythm. It's whatever now, but still, the old me wouldn't have explained and would have asked her to stay outta grown folks business.

13- Offers to answer Math's question somewhere down the line. Now, right here, I notice a subtlety in her tone that indicates she's starting to feel disconnected from the game, and it's earlier than I thought. She says she's going to do it, but she "just has to do it." That subtle wording tells me that she's not looking forward to it. That it's a chore she's going to have to make herself do.

14- Admits that she won't likely be NK'd with this player list (agreed), says it's more productive to wait until we have more posts to decide who out of Math's early critics are scum. (Probably so)

15- Says she's limited access, NAI

16- Thinks we should move on to the bronzing stage. Calls Math town, urges Math to take a breather from the thread.

17- Asks Tammy how she feels about her sheeping Tammy onto Prism. I like this post.

18- fluff

19- Asks Dunn for more reads

20- Doesn't necessarily buy LLD's mason claim, doesn't think she's scum for lying about it if she's lying. Analysis of LLD wanting control, and if I remember right this is where Titus started becoming worrisome for me.

21- Tells Math what she feels he's doing wrong. Calls Math anti-town, but not scum.

22- Townread on Spiffeh

23- Calls Math a moderate townread but admits she's willing to policy bronze.

24- Asks Math his read on Dunn since at this point Dunn is coming into conversation.

So I think on the surface, this might look to some like scum-coaching, but remember, we already know from the rules that scum have day talk. She doesn't need to coach her partner in open thread, and tbh it doesn't happen nearly as often as people think it does because current site meta gives scum daytalk in themes anyway if im not mistaken.

The next couple posts, 25 and 26 are essentially game theory, and pretty basic at that.

27- Agrees that she's threatened to policy Math before.

28- A quick statement about who's on the Dunn wagon. This a good post and i'm writing this as a mental note to look at something at some nebulous point.

29- moves her vote to Dunn

30- Says her vote is to reward good behavior whatever that means

31- Says the Math wagon is justified. Explains why she feels Math's personality causes this to happen.

32- Asks Math why his read changed.

33- Explains her method in regards to the Dunn wagon

34- Likes BM, is souring on Bell

35- Asks BM if Bell could be TMI. I don't understand what that means but ok

36- Explains her Bell read to Spiffeh. Says Bell is trying, but calls the pushes "vapid."

37- Calls Bell's bluff about not voting Bell. There's an aggressiveness to this post that I like. Titus doesn't need to challenge Bell here and does anyway.

38- Says she scumreads Dunn, says she's trying to work with others.

39- Wants LLD to answer her question

40- Flavor / mechanics post, Titus (rightfully) points out both Prism and bork having possessed an artifact, would know what that artifact does

41- Calls Bell her highest scumread

42- Questions Math not wanting to help her on Bell. I have thoughts on this, but it requires more time than I have right now.

43- real good post questioning why Math asked Bell (who apparently scum reads Math) to sheep him. I'm with Titus on this. Like, I townread Math, but god damn I'd never ask someone who's scumreading me to sheep me. Like... why even bother asking?

44- Finally votes Math, seems genuinely frustrated with her brother.

45- says she'll be busy the next few days

on that note about halfway through, I'm taking a breather from this. i fear my wife may shoot me if I snooze my alarm one more time and I need to finish cleaning out the old apartment by midnight

-k

[SirCakez]

The only reason I'd vote Math at this point is to help clear up the gamestate
I think he continues to make bad post after bad post and I just don't think it's scum play at all

[SirCakez]

I'm not as sure on quiet scum but SirCakez is definitely deflecting attention away from a slot under no pressure. It also likely won't be made to catch up either. So why does Cakez need to defend quiet?

I made those posts in response to seeing quiet in Prism and someone else's (I forget who) yeet piles.

[SirCakez]

My feelings on Bork can be summarized as a blank face.

Same

[penguin_alien]

Afternoon Vote Count 1.13

Afternoon 1 will end in (expired on 2021-03-01 23:59:59)

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to Bronze.

Dunnstral (2): quiet, Spiffeh
MathBlade (1): Battle Mage
Titus (6): sangres, SirCakez, borkjerfkin, Lady Lambdadelta, PookyTheMagicalBear, MathBlade
SirCakez (3): mastina, Dunnstral, Titus
mastina (2): Bell, GreyICE

Not voting (3): Tammy, Prism, Kitty Trauma Team


Mod notes: 63/85 pages used

Battle Mage is V/LA until Monday evening

[MathBlade]

The only reason I'd vote Math at this point is to help clear up the gamestate
I think he continues to make bad post after bad post and I just don't think it's scum play at all

“Bad” post after “Bad” post << Bad is not defined.

It’s shit like this that pisses me off.

You calling something bad doesn’t make it true.

I find them excellent posts and I am probably dead tomorrow anyway.