TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[mastina]

is there ever scum in {

oka

, ceph, hop}

As a matter of fact, yes.

Iso me, control-F Oka. See what I've said about him the entire game.

Then, having seen what I said about him, do an iso on Oka and see if you think what I say has merit.

You'll be surprised.

[Cephrir]

w e k n o w

[Almost50]

Why isn't that textbook scum distancing without bussing?

It's not. It's textbook FLAVOR LEAF Scum distancing.

OK, what about Winter? What do you have against him? Or Oka? Or Bell??

[Almost50]

Iso me, control-F Oka. See what I've said about him the entire game.

No, no no no... I want a post like that one about AGar.. short and precise. I have no patience for X4 sheets. I get lost after line 2 (if I do get that far)

[mastina]

Spoiler: Here I'll save you some time

also i kinda just want to see more of this herc lld thing and honestly, im a bit lazy and LLD is a great opportunity to let someone take the reigns and for me to get out the way. do you guys really want to see me post storm this game. or do you want to see me ascend above all mortals.

I get that Oka may not be able to win TM. I get that Oka may not want to have an identical game to last one. I get that Oka may want to just vibe and chill. But the more Oka strays from being a presence in the game, the more he starts to look like scum.

also mastina, why is oka locktown? he has a solid scum game and i dont feel that what he's put down so far is anything he's not capable of doing as scum.

If Oka is town I'm gonna fucking hate myself for forgetting why I had him as locktown, but I am asking myself the same question; why

did

I have him as locktown? The fact that I'm struggling to answer that, when Oka's posting is far more lackluster this game and lacks the fire of last game, is enough when combined with peer pressure to move him allllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way down to maybe-scum.

in all seriousness, mastina i feel like you are trying to make me move to LLD, you know im on the fence now is this really how ur going to try and herd me over, by making me return to monke

I have no such pull. If you're scum, then you're scum. If you're town, then your continued vote on hercule is either laziness, denial of reality, or both lazy and denying reality.

You've done just as good a job as I have for giving the proof for why hercule's town this game; you're still voting him. So the options are literally among those three: laziness, denying reality, or scum. (The three are in no way mutually exclusive and can in fact exist in any combination of the 2-3.)

(New take on this old take: Oka was giving reasons for hercule to be town to try and weaken the wagon there while still getting the bussing credit.)

if ur going to scumread me that's okay but making this about presence really feels like you want me to clash LLD and end up voting her

I'm not asking you "why aren't you voting LLD?". There are plenty of players who I am townreading who have said they townread LLD. I've been rather loud about disagreeing with them on that townread and I wish they were voting LLD, but them not voting LLD is not something which makes them suspect.

I am however asking you "why are you voting hercule?". The number of players who are voting hercule who I townread is rather notably smaller, for good reason. There are still players who I townread who're voting hercule for poor reasoning, and I have talked to them and addressed their reasoning, pointing out the flaws in it, and continue to ask them that question.

My read on you is entirely separate of this, however--you, notably, have a much weaker presence this game.
You are also, notably, while in a good position to have a good read on hercule...still voting him in spite of lacking it.
But it is mostly that vibe-wise, aura-wise, you just don't radiate town the same way you did last game. You don't feel town and I can't really describe why you would be town. I can however see why you would be scum. But you're notably not a scumread; you're an in-flux read because I did have that strong townread on you and a lot of the read on you is peer pressure from others scumreading you and me not being able to remember why I was townreading you.

In short: you're not doing anything town right now, and there's things you're doing that could very well be scum.
Not voting LLD isn't among them.
Continuing to vote hercule might be among them, but even lacking that, the things which could be scum are still there.

some of the votes on both the LLD and the hercule wagon over the course of the day have been... really bad

I mean literally almost every hercule vote has been bad but I won't pretend that the Ythan/Oka votes on LLD were good; they weren't. So you won't have trouble convincing me certain slots could be scum, but other slots are a much harder sell.

maybe i just tend to townread Oka's style and that fact that he's even close to hitting a similar energy as last game when I don't think he would really be trying as scum when his team has already lost is +town

Oka's energy isn't even remotely similar to last game--that's specifically one of the reasons he's in my suspect pool.

OkaPoka I am thinking is the final scum for a D1 scumteam, for maybe a stupid reason but a reason nonetheless: we haven't heard from MathBlade at all aside from a singular, probably pregame, mention of my readslists being how to townread me. This, in spite of MB having started to be involved last game and him having ample opportunity to have followed along this game and given feedback. OkaPoka has apparently never consulted MathBlade on Titus in spite of Titus being MathBlade's sibling. Yes, I am fully aware that being siblings doesn't mean he can soulread Titus; he can be wrong on her. But he should still have good insights onto her and have formed, right or wrong, a stance on her, yet we've got radio silence from him.

This also extends to various aspects, such as Oka's push on me. Did OkaPoka not consult his team when he had the 'thought' that I was being political? Surely MathBlade would've had something to say about that theory even if he wasn't following along. Overall, OkaPoka hasn't seemed town to me and the cementing factor as fourth scumread is the lack of his teammate's feedback.

I have fairly good reasons for thinking AGar is scum and I

do

think that, if my read on the gamestate is right, then towning it up be damned, OkaPoka is the fourth scum in spite of how he looks town. (OkaPoka looks like deepwolf scum this game. He is very obviously power"town"ing, but the stances he keeps insisting on furthering are very much pro-scum which means he is probably the scum's highest-effort, deepest of deep deepscums and not actually town. The scum who looks the most town, but still scum thanks to advocating for pro-scum stances essentially the whole game. Scum who dabbles in town stances, but doesn't commit to them, sticking to stances that help scum overall, just faked to look like an organic trajectory where he naturally evolves his thoughts from the protown ones into the proscum ones. In other words. Powerwolfing.)

i personally still like iv a bit although i will admit his eod was kinda ?????????
but dgb/lld both being town makes it feel like a wash now idk

Realtalk; why are people townreading Oka? He's far more guilty of the things he's shading IV on imo.

3 in (

Titus

/

Agar

/

Bell

/Winter Flakes (alt of Uncrowned),

Oka

, JJH, Ythan, A50) + deepwolf?

I'd count Oka as the deepwolf, actually, but yes, pretty much.

OkaPoka - Oka feels kind of like me this game, in that if he is scum, he has been faking all the highs and lows of the deadline scramble, being present when it's urgent, and actively pushing the town to be productive at times when it felt pretty natural to do so. His confidence and excitement on pushing DGB especially when the major wagons we've revealed have all been town feels like an unnecessary amount of weight to be putting behind an elimination, although I'll admit that this could be agenda-motivated because without him DGB probably doesn't become a wagon so maybe NAI. I feel like Oka is more of a town player from his style and I don't believe he can deepwolf this convincingly as scum (if I'm wrong, please link me a game and let me know), nor is he as incentivized to anymore with his team already losing Black Flag. If he's scum I'm kind of fine letting him keep being himself and just get more readable over time. But I'm also open to reconsidering here that he's for some reason decided to effort and play the deepwolf here.

It may be a stupid reason, but.

Last game, Oka felt frustrated, emotional, aggravated, in a way that I've felt is absent from this game.

And yes--that is actually a major part of the scumread I have there.

Last game, OkaPoka radiated the energy that he felt like he was pulling out his hair trying.
This game, OkaPoka radiates energy of...nothing.

OkaPoka - Oka feels kind of like me this game, in that if he is scum, he has been faking all the highs and lows of the deadline scramble, being present when it's urgent, and actively pushing the town to be productive at times when it felt pretty natural to do so. His confidence and excitement on pushing DGB especially when the major wagons we've revealed have all been town feels like an unnecessary amount of weight to be putting behind an elimination, although I'll admit that this could be agenda-motivated because without him DGB probably doesn't become a wagon so maybe NAI. I feel like Oka is more of a town player from his style and I don't believe he can deepwolf this convincingly as scum (if I'm wrong, please link me a game and let me know), nor is he as incentivized to anymore with his team already losing Black Flag. If he's scum I'm kind of fine letting him keep being himself and just get more readable over time. But I'm also open to reconsidering here that he's for some reason decided to effort and play the deepwolf here.

It may be a stupid reason, but.

Last game, Oka felt frustrated, emotional, aggravated, in a way that I've felt is absent from this game.

And yes--that is actually a major part of the scumread I have there.

Last game, OkaPoka radiated the energy that he felt like he was pulling out his hair trying.
This game, OkaPoka radiates energy of...nothing.

Wait I think I can actually give this better wording.
Last game, Oka felt incredulous towards players like me. He felt baffled by what amounts to what he saw as "the stupidity".
This game, he really hasn't been.

Oka last game radiated the energy of basically tryharding and being frustrated by shortcomings in this effort.
This game, Oka's posting a lot, but when the efforts come up short, he...more or less goes "oh well" and doesn't do anything about it other than try something else.
There's just...not the same emotional depth to his play, if that makes sense.

meh he voted ythan to compromise or something
also he didnt open with a ythan vote he waited and used ioa
idk dude it doesnt make sense
i scumread both, my reaction is ????????????????????????????????????????????

I think I can explain it further.
Oka is in some senses an inverse to hercule. hercule last game got incredulous to my scumread on him, with an overblown reaction; in contrast, this game he was fairly calm.

Oka last game got incredulous towards me, just in general, me, but also for the gamestate and everything. In contrast, this game he is fairly calm, in spite of a similar gamestate of sorts.

Like, in the post I am quoting: do you see any emotion from Oka? Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

again multitasking which is why this took so long

Hopkirk is close to a townread but he is not at the level of unwnd or hercule for me. i get the feeling he's just a good player which makes me paranoid of his scumrange. honestly my eyes glaze over his posting (potentially not ideal) but the vibe I get is that it looks like he's being helpful and engaging everyone in an effort to understand what's going on. if he's establishing himself to push an agenda i have a feeling we'll see it later but im very okay having this slot around for now.

JacksonVirgo - mostly a tonal read. i don't love 526 or 533 but the posts i thought were +town are: 534, 597, 598, 599, 647, 648. it's hard to explain it beyond just being openly frustrated and utterly not giving a shit about his thread perception which i have found in practice (in my anecdotal experience) to be a towntell for him.

A50 - this is like exactly the same as A50 in this one towngame we played and not at all how he played in this scumgame we did (granted he replaced in, which is different). there are moments like 112, 116, 619, 622 that ring eerily similar. "but it's just A50's playstyle!" you might say. okay sure maybe, that's why he's one of my weaker townleans i guess. also 737 is a really weird thing to post as scum but i obliged him since someone on my team thinks he can read him ok.

Xtoxm - unprompted and unpostury/interesting notes from Auro are good, i liked 642 for example. don't see an agenda from this slot, not postury, takes are pretty reasonable. other people townreading them too despite lack of content quantity which feels good. weaker townlean probably

TW - ill likely be revisiting this a lot bc im paranoid. here's the reasoning i gave earlier

rn it's leantown i think with the engagement and with the hinting on Datisi scumreading me so early (inside thing where town!Datisi has tunneled early town!me for two games in a row, i like that Datisi gave the read and the worst mentioned it unprompted). his entrance felt forced but on reread it's not bad. could be some confbiasing going on there so im conflicted, idk, im gonna just like worsty be a slow burn read for me.

and i think with your recent interaction with me im townreading you even more. i think your disengagement from this game is fine in the context of being busy and maybe even +town in a vacuum. also i think it's easy for scum!you to try and pocket me and you've done everything but engage with me and pocket me.

I'm ok adding IV to my townblock

i dont think that's how townblocks work

iv is voting you

Haven't got there yet, but I'm ok with putting him in my never eliminate pile.

literally three posts down
like
not talking to you until you catchup because my sanity is gone

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

you know what instead of interacting with mastina
raise your hand if you agree with mastina's interpretation of time and events, if you raise your hand I'll interact with you instead

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

someone translate mastina's posts for me i cant look at them

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

or agar for you: if I voted mastina right now it would be because I can't find a good scum flip and want to go for policy, but i have a couple reads i want to flip so yeah

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

points 3 and 4 mastina, points 3 and 4

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

like mastina think critically about why people haven't flipped to agree with you even though you are posting mega walls with logical steps
you are missing massive amounts of context that everyone else has, stop arguing with me until you've read up

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

fuck it too many people have tmi'd xtoxm as town and literally not one of them can explain why he is town
mastina is the closest but her best argument boils down to xtoxm wouldn't play so shit as scum
UNVOTE:

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

If im a noise generator, you are a fucking banshee

Subject: TM 2021 Large Normal: OEIS Mafia (Part Two Is Out)

Legitimately push a fucking scum case on me jesus

Compare to things like this from last game.

Oka in particular engaging me on Xtoxm was a point of emotion from him that couldn't come from scum because he was town.

Oka in this game has...nothing which he had there.

There's none of that emotion, none of that frustration, none of that.

hmm
checks out tbh

Also, I do want to ask:
Last game, Oka had pretty good solves and even when he had doubt thrown on the solves he had alternatives almost immediately. He had strong stances that he backed with reason and was actively trying to lead the town while dealing with the frustrations of the town doing bad town things.

This game, Oka has...well he has stances but he's pretty passive about it and he's not putting forward many and when he does it's not with much reason. He's more timid, he's more reserved, he's not charging forward.

Why the strong contrast?

a50 pushing a me + ythan scumteam is ridiculously considering what happened yesterday to the point where again i still have nothing to say

Like: last game, A50 pushing an Oka-Ythan scumteam, just as ridiculous that game as this game, would've caused Oka to have a bit of a blowup.

Here, he says it himself: he has nothing to say.

The calmness, the lack of emotion, is itself disconcerning. Oka lacks passion here. He's not exactly lifeless; he's active, he's posting, he's giving stuff, etc. He's just not...showing emotion.

Why isn't Oka voting anyone

Because he's scum.

agar patience

trust the process

i think i know what im doing here

(Obligatory "was this meant for the scum thread?" remark here.



)

today bell starts asking questions that look like sorting -> less sus

Vote Count 2.10 (FINAL)

Luca Blight

(8): Winter Flakes, OkaPoka,

Titus

,

Almost50

, Bell,

Cephrir

Almost50

(2): AGar, Ythan

OkaPoka

(1): Hopkirk

Titus

(1): innocentvillager

Not Voting

(2): jjh927, Xtoxm

Vote Count 1.5

hercule

(7): Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst/Bell,

Cephrir

Lady Lambdadelta

(4):

hercule

, Hopkirk, innocentvillager

the worst/Bell

(2): jjh927, Winter Flakes

DrippingGoofball

(1): Xtoxm

Not Voting

(2):

Titus

, AGar

(Removed truly alignment-known players; colored green players I am treating as conftown.)

So both wagons at their peak had a lot of the same names on them, with Oka and Bell on both iterations of the wagon with the main difference being Ythan on the first and Winter Flakes on the second.

There's four possible worlds:
Scum stayed off of both iterations of the wagon (3 scum in {Hopkirk, innocentvillager, jjh, Xtoxm, AGar});
One scum was on both iterations of the wagon, but a different one; one scum bussed both (Ythan, Winterflakes as scum, with the third as one of Oka/Bell);
One scum was on both iterations of the wagon, but a different one; the last scum was off (1 scum in {Hopkirk, innocentvillager, jjh, Xtoxm, AGar});
Scum bussed consistently, with 1-2 scum in {Oka, Bell}.

GIVEN:
Luca Blight had heavy defenders that were going out of their way to defend him,
AND:
The case on Luca was fairly shoddy,
AND:
There was a good chance Luca's wagon would dissipate,
I am disinclined to believe that scum were entirely off of both iterations of the wagon.

It's possible all three scum were on one iteration of the wagon, but incredibly unlikely.
But I also believe there's going to be two non-Luca scum on the wagon elimination. It's going to be at least 1 there, so the options are 1 or 2.
On the initial wagon, there should also be at least 1, but it is less guaranteed to be 2.

So, 1-2 scum in {Winter Flakes, OkaPoka, Bell}; 1-2 scum in {Ythan, OkaPoka, Bell} (with Ythan probably being town); by necessity, 1-2 scum in {Hopkirk, innocentvillager, jjh, Xtoxm, AGar}.

I am still pretty sure this is Xtoxm as town.
I am still reasonably confident that the totality of IV is town.
I still feel Hopkirk is town.

So that'd be 1-2 scum in {Winter Flakes, OkaPoka, Bell} and 1-2 scum in {jjh, AGar}.

If my reads yesterday sans Luca were right it'd be Oka+Bell+AGar, but most of these combos are viable, not just that one.

like this is literally just throwing shade at my play that you have no prior experience of because my reads aren't 100% right? i don't get the motive if it isn't just to hard shade me

Yeah about that.

There's damn good reason Oka's a scumread of mine.

And I really don't get why people aren't realizing that OkaPoka's been on a game-long campaign to put people down, to shade them, without actually doing anything town.

This is what I've said on Oka and why I think he's scum.

Go read his iso yourself to see if you think what I said here has merit.

[Ythan]

I've had a very busy weekend but I should be freer soon.

[mastina]

OK, what about Winter? What do you have against him? Or Oka? Or Bell??

Winter is in the POE because I can't strongly convince myself that he is town, when in this game I can convince myself on all but four players being town. While I think he's by far the towniest of the three and he looks town, I can't CONVINCE myself that he's town to a degree where I can remove him from the poe. IV's case for Winter being town is helpful for keeping him as the most town of the four, but not enough to remove him from the list altogether.

OkaPoka is explicitly my strongest scumread in the game and yes I believe he bussed.

Bell is overall my second-strongest scumread in the game because overall I think this is Bell's scumgame and Bell's stances have been rather pro-scum overall (even the Luca vote in spite of Luca being scum counts as a pro-scum stance) and the worst's apathy was more likely to come from scum and the wagon on him on D1 fell apart for no good reason.

I would vote any of the four, but my preference is Oka > Bell > AGar > Winter Flakes.

My vote is on AGar tho because Oka and Bell have no votes whereas there is a notable and substantial wagon on AGar.

[AGar]

that's not exactly trying to get hercule voted off

You seem to have forgotten I spent a large chunk of D1 pontificating that we should yeet you. I don't know how, since you've taken so much offense to it, but I promise that that was in fact my MO day 1!

[Hopkirk]

You deleted the part of the post you just quoted where I said you were vanity shitpushing me instead of voting hercule

[AGar]

Yes, I was trying to frame it better in the post in which I specifically said I was trying to get you yeeted.

Vanity would imply I parked a vote and then, y'know, didn't try and get anything going beyond that. Or do you not mean "vanity" this time? Just because no one bit doesn't mean I didn't attempt anything.

[AGar]

Sorry forgot the /s tag to help you out after the first line.

[Hopkirk]

Vanity wagon = lone vote on someone that nobody else is voting for, typically while there's other wagons on people you scumread. The amount you push it is irrelevant (I say push when I mean shitpush) in the classification as a VW

I know my definitions

[AGar]

Also, since we're gonna go down this road:

The first hercule wagon, I suggested I would vote in 880. Hercule was sitting at 6 votes at that point in time (VC 1.4), but I was very openly posting while working and wanted to do some things that required my full attention. Instead, work devoured me, my mental health was at an all time low, I dipped out for as long as I could to get my shit straightened out, and then by the time I caught up in 1616, hercule was no longer a viable wagon and LLD had sprung up as the choice. (VCs 1.10 & 1.11.) I decided to push at hopkirk since that was a stone that hadn't been moved around at that point.

The Luca wagon on Day 2 basically went from 4 votes to a yeet while I wasn't in the thread. So not really much I can say about that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

P-Edit: The wagon on hercule had fizzled out by the time I voted you, so try again scumbag.

[Almost50]

@mastina: I get the case against Oka, but LOLOLOLOL if THAT was "saving me some time".

VOTE: Oka

Here... I'll go first. Who wants in?

Btw, I am not exactly sheeping mastina here.. I said exactly this earlier:

[*]OkaPoka, Willing to give him the benefit of doubt forn his early “bus” of Luca

(I quoted as-is; including the typo)

[Xtoxm]

In spite of hercule having a wagon peaking at 7 votes, and AGar hating the LLD counterwagon, he never applied vote pressure onto hercule and never voted Luca, always voting for a wagon other than our flipped scum.

don't feel that's really a fair representation of his play. hercule was in grave danger d1, and he only lived cus a bunch of us scumsided and saved him. agar worked against that, and painted himself into a corner that if someone like lld prodded him about killing hercule his trajectory didn't really offer him a way out.

Why isn't that textbook scum distancing without bussing?

that textbook scum distancing that looks bad when people only look at VCs or ctrl+f votes, without reading his iso in any detail? right.

[Almost50]

me have top sekrit meta read on hercule

[irrelevant stuff]

no mention of that top sekrit thing in hercules wall so hehehehuehuehuehe

[more irrelevant stuff]

@Oka: You said you had a tell on hercule, and that he wasn't aware of it (at least that's how I read the above quote). How come you didn't push

hercule

for the time he was in the game?

me thinks everyone who has posted so far is town

because we've clearly been spamming refresh for the past 12 hours so we can start shitposting

This still pings me (for those who missed it, ISO me)

just so you're all aware, ive crumbed my role somewhere at this point. it's very subtle so you'll never guess it but i thought you all should know.

was it the mason claim?

masons with okapoka

And you have been role-fishing for the entire game (I recall you role-fishing me during my spat with Ythan, and you did it most recently but I can't remember the specifics.)

Hell, I'm not up to this at this time. I just went back to remind myself of some o=of the things that pinged me about you. Now, how did you manage to convince ne to move you up again?? I could go read but I probably won't.

[Xtoxm]

VOTE: Oka

Here... I'll go first. Who wants in?

i would really rather just kill the wolfiest slot in the game than go deepwolf hunting today
game is starting to feel like the same battle lines being drawn from d1 and i dont like it
but i feel more enthused by this than agar rn
i'll poke auro for a chat abt it or something

[OkaPoka]

feel free to read my iso lol

alternatively use ctrl+f

[Almost50]

i would really rather just kill the wolfiest slot in the game than go deepwolf hunting today

Winter is NOT the wolfiest though. AGar is (despite your town!case for him) followed by Oka. And since everyone seems to have someone in thee PoE that they won't vote I think I'll give Winter my "I'm not voting this today" title.

[Cephrir]

thank you for laying out the objective facts about who is the scummiest everyone, that is very helpful to the discourse

[Cephrir]

in fact every time anyone posts a pool of suspects, if everyone else could just post "ur wrong because that isn't my exact pool of suspects" i think that would really improve the quality of this game

[Cephrir]

I reread winter flakes (alt of uncrowned). It didnt make me feel that much. He's had a few takes and swings (like a read flip on hercule) that I dunno I maybe kinda like?

I think I want to vote either titus or jjh. I may be reading dead town again for inspiration.

[Cephrir]

Since its not exactly subtle in the first place I'll acknowledge that I can see mastina is acting like she has something on jjh and I'm doing mental math on how much I care about factoring that in. I think this could easily be her having fuck all and pretending, and I'm not really inclined to trust her after how painfully and aggressively wrong she has been to this point. I think they could be scum together, too. At some level, vague implications cease to matter and it becomes your problem if you can't play townie enough to not deserve my vote.

[Almost50]

in fact every time anyone posts a pool of suspects, if everyone else could just post "ur wrong because that isn't my exact pool of suspects" i think that would really improve the quality of this game

ur wrong because that isn't my exact line of thought.

[Cephrir]

Titus my main problem with you is you have these seemingly strong reads like LLD!town and the_worst!scum

but I haven't really seen you try to push these reads in any reasonably forceful way. I get not wanting to add noise to the thread but your actions don't seem to line up with what you're saying. Like, you've wound up on the same wagon as Bell, purportedly your strongest scum read. And as someone who self proclaims to pay a lot of attention to VCA, that feels off coming from you.