TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[innocentvillager]

oka do you feel the way mastina is handling her scumread on you is significantly more passive (less corralling of the town's votes) than the pushing against Titus and LLD? i don't know that I felt that there was a huge difference (without rereading). It feels to me like she's mostly just been monologuing all game about her scumreads and less so trying to "beg people to vote for her scumreads", which is what you are accusing her of doing here

and to me that feels more likely to be a playstyle thing

[OkaPoka]

well for one thing she hasn't voted me this game at all

not entirely sure about

significantly

more passive though. i will say upon rereading mastina's iso, she was pretty timid about voting lld until dgb pushed her. like she was first to express a sr on lld sure, but she hops around basically until dgb commits to lld where she parks for the rest of d1. im not accusing her of begging people to vote for her scumreds, i am saying that she should be begging if she thinks im scum numba 1 and im widely townread. there is just no sense of uh oh from her. i don't think its a playstyle thing, mastina is a pretty combative player. maybe not in your face combative but she does fight to make things her way. i dont see any of that uh oh from mastina.

[Ythan]

Alright real talk I'll take a good look at these scum after work today and pick one.

[OkaPoka]

i think its very clear im not widely townread though and plenty of people sus me. but she does.

[innocentvillager]

im not accusing her of begging people to vote for her scumreds, i am saying that she should be begging if she thinks im scum numba 1 and im widely townread. there is just no sense of uh oh from her.

yeah sorry i did know that i just worded it poorly, i meant that you are accusing her of being timid on her pushes and instead want her to beg people to vote for her scumreads. and i was saying mastina seems reasonably consistent in the way she's handled her pushes on LLD, Titus, you, so i was suggesting that that is how she just pushes in general even if you think town her should be more proactive in building the wagon.

you think she's "combative" as town and more pushy, ok maybe, idk her, id need to see more on that point i guess? do you think she was more combative in the first game for example?

she was pretty timid about voting lld until dgb pushed her. like she was first to express a sr on lld sure, but she hops around basically until dgb commits to lld where she parks for the rest of d1

hm, i may have to reread this part. if it's true that DGB pushing LLD gave mastina more confidence to aggressively push LLD, then it could be scum!agenda motivated? or it could just be town trying to vote where she thinks she has the most support? even if i accept your interpretation of this cause -> effect chain i think i see how it fits narratively with a scum!mastina agenda but im not convinced it's unlikely from town!her

[Cephrir]

i've definitely seen mastina specifically beg players for votes before

[OkaPoka]

bro you were in the last game and you saw how she kinda led the charge on dismantling the xtoxm and abr wagons. to be fair she also charged in pushing ceph and herc so its not about her read accuracy. she was a lot more hardline last game yes.

[Cephrir]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12543958

have we seen anything like this from her this game, truly? idk

[Cephrir]

in fairness i don't really read half her posts so it's possible

[Cephrir]

i was going to suggest that she is less irritating this game but then i realized that's definitely because a) she isn't pushing me and b) i'm town

[innocentvillager]

bro you were in the last game and you saw how she kinda led the charge on dismantling the xtoxm and abr wagons. to be fair she also charged in pushing ceph and herc so its not about her read accuracy. she was a lot more hardline last game yes.

i TL this post for some reason

maybe it's the directness and slight bewilderment that im not seeing what you feel you're clearly seeing

in either case, ill admit your point on mastina has merit

it kind of just depends on how we interpret her pushes between this game and last game

[innocentvillager]

maybe one thing to look out for between this game and last game is: does she ever display traits of “being political” as oka likes to call it

specifically like, only pushing hard when it seems like they will be a viable wagon

if she has multiple scumreads, does she ever just vote lazily with the scumread that is at the highest

or is she always pushing and voting her top scumread regardless of the wagon size

if she’s not displaying any of these “political” behaviors last game, I would consider that scum!indicative here

[OkaPoka]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12542065

this is the closest parallel i can find rn

[OkaPoka]

i will note that i felt like she fought with me a whole of a lot more last game when she literally had me as her top townread than this game.

[AGar]

@Oka

Keely wants to pick at your read on mastina a bit. Everything you're saying mastina is doing here, he feels mastina did last game, so can you highlight with some links the differences you're seeing?

[AGar]

Bad at paraphrasing: specifically how mastina approached pushing at me is similar - I was not her strongest scumread in v1.0 either.

[OkaPoka]

ill look at game 1 again later

however i do think that maybe mastina treated you similarly across games specifically, but i don't see much fight in her in general where as in game 1 and in another game (doubles) she fought a lot harder to get things her way. so maybe it looks similar but i dont think it is.

[OkaPoka]

holistically, mastina did a lot more defending that game than pushing imo

[OkaPoka]

i legit cannot really find much casework on agar last game

[OkaPoka]

Much as I'm tempted to join: my entire case on Ceph here falls apart if AGar doesn't flip scum. It'd be smarter to check AGar first, no? If AGar flips scum, my theory may have merit, but an AGar townflip invalidates my case on Ceph. (Well, unless IV is scum in which case I got it backwards, but balance of probability, AGar town = my case on Ceph is wrong.)
Avata

[OkaPoka]

hmm

[implosion]

44

44 (forty-four) is the natural number following 43 and preceding 45.

Vote Count 3.9 (UNCHANGED)

AGar

(3): Hopkirk, Titus, mastina

mastina

(3): OkaPoka, AGar, Bell

Titus

(2): Cephrir, innocentvillager

OkaPoka

(1): Almost50

Winter Flakes

(1): jjh927

jjh927

(1): Winter Flakes

Not Voting

(2): Ythan, Xtoxm

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate. Deadline is set for 1:00 AM PST on March 9, in (expired on 2021-03-09 05:00:00).

[Winter Flakes]

I posit an alternative.
Given Mastina's current reads and positions now is probably a good time to eliminate her.
She's never getting night killed and she's going to end up in elo. As either alignment she is going to vote incorrectly and lose us the game.

this is kinda yuck

[OkaPoka]

v/la until saturday

[mastina]

Fair warning: I REALLY don't feel like posting right now (I've been, for a while, rather badly depressed and it affects my motivation to play and the amount of effort that I put in), but given that I'll be V/LA this weekend for the sake of a different community, I kinda feel like I have to post here, so.

you still are taking a back seat and i dont think that's in dispute.

Yes, I do that after being horribly wrong on D1 and eliminating a strong town player through that force of will where I was a spearhead in the wagon. I've explained this before, lemme see if I can track the quote down.

Spoiler: Not this one but having it here anyway because it's relevant to other stuff.

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

Mastina I believe to be town but *technically* she could be scum in the event Creature is town and she had a really good D1 -- like I don't think she is scum but I have never seen mastina scum, either, so perhaps she didn't exit her scumrange but it'd have to be quite big.

I can help (well, "help") you there:
At my absolute peak scum performance levels, D1 is not out of scumastina's scum range altogether, albeit requiring a perfect storm of me being at highest-level functioning capabilities across multiple areas rather than in one or two more specific areas. ~2015-2017-era scumastina was genuinely one of the best scum players onsite with a huge, huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge flexibility to her scumgame and notably gifted at situational awareness to adapt her scumplay to perfectly fit the needs of the particular game as to maximize her team's chances at winning.

However.

Over the last two years, my scumgame has been utterly atrocious. I've been a total lurksack whose contributions were notably lackluster with the difference between my scumplay and townplay being night and day, with my scumplay being minimal, using every excuse to avoid content, and coasting by with my towngame being more energetic.

However

however, I DID just have a scumgame where I approached near-peak-scumastina-levels. I was still, very visibly, not in my towngame, and there were multiple scum traits of mine present, but I exuded a "town aura" as scum, something which is

very

hard to pull off, yet I have shown the capacity to do as given by that game. Radiating townness as scum is something within my scumrange, which is why I invented the flowchart for how to read me.

The flowchart is, notably, a little dated; it's missing some of my most recent town/scumtells and in the case of being reasonable and rational, this is something that has become almost nai. (I am more reasonable and rational as both alignments and as town can be very convincing with logical deductions and outlining the process behind my conclusions, so just on a skim, you'd think nai, but as scum my arguments still tend to be even more "precise" than their town counterparts, extra-targeted, extra-concise in comparison, extra on-point, whereas my town cases tend to always have weaknesses in them if you look beyond the surface. Which is to say, my scum cases tend to be more "perfect" than my town cases are, in spite of me being logical in both.)

And a key aspect of it is that I'll never show every town trait in a towngame and never show every scum trait in a scumgame and may show some scum traits in a towngame and definitely will show some town traits in a scumgame, but that overall it is incredibly hard, over a sustained period of time, borderlining on nigh-impossible levels, for me to maintain a presence of almost all towntells as scum, whereas they flow more naturally as town.

Basically, while I will suffer burnout as both alignments, it's easier to suffer burnout as scum because being scum at the highest level of effort is more draining than being town at the highest level of effort (even though both are, notably, draining; I am incapable of maintaining the highest level of effort as town indefinitely, which is why I frequently have a mixture of low/high-energy posting days, with low ones being rest time and high ones being active time). The cracks in scumastina form over time with continued observation; the solidification of town-mastina becomes more readily apparent given time.

So that is to say,
tl;dr?
D1's not impossible from scumastina, but is incredibly improbable to be her.

Spoiler: Also not this one, but still also relevant

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

She's remained active but allowed her reads to ebb and flow with the current game state.

Do explain because I've made my stances pretty damn abundantly clear with zero waffling on them aside from my reads in the poe that aren't harder scumreads. (Which, obviously, are reads that, no fucking shit I'm going to have them ebb and flow off of the current gamestate, because explicitly, they are reads that I waver on and am unsure on so literally any development in the game can sway them to one side or the other. Those being, mostly, you and Dunnstral.)

One mislynch on Day 1 that she headlines, and her town reads are becoming scum reads because she can read the room and see what people want.

Most of my townreads are very much still my townreads.

There are a grand total of three reads of mine that were townreads D1 that on D2 are not: you, Dunnstral, and Bell.

This of course being necessary because there's four scum in the game and I had three scumreads--meaning that I was, inherently, by fundamental nature of the setup, definitively wrong on at least one townread, and unless all three of my scumreads were accurate, probably two. And if 2/3 of my scumreads were wrong, then there could in fact be three wrong townreads that I had on D1.

I reevaluated my reads because I had a very damn good reason to do so, and

most

of my townreads remain as townreads, with only three of them being reevaluated as something other than a townread...

...And even then? Even then, one of those reads is Dunnstral, who I still have an overall right now gut-townread on, where while he's in the POE pool of six where 4/6 of them are scum, he's the towniest of the six that I happen to think is least-likely to be scum.

She is actively lurking and letting the Bell/DEB thing happen.

So...which of my posts are 'actively lurking'? Which of my posts are 'letting' the Bell/DEB thing happen? Because I've made my stance there clear enough.

I feel both players are likely to be scum, with the whole detective-detective thing being scum theater.
I feel that, while both claims could theoretically be town in the setup, that at least one of them is going to be scum, and personally feel the most likely scenario is that both are scum (although I have acknowledged that is a tough sell to make).
I have stated that, by play, I feel like both slots are scum.
I have also said that, push come to shove, if I were forced to trust one claim over another, that Bell's far more likely scum than DEB.
But I've also said that I think both are scum.

I've given reasons for believing Bell to be scum.
I've continued giving reasons for Creature to be scum.
I've explained my reasons for my reads on the players I am townreading pretty extensively as well as going into detail on the reads in the poe pool pretty extensively.
Pretty much the only read I haven't explained is the DEB read, which...well, because it's DEB...there's not much to work with there in terms of explaining because it's DEB.

If that's your definition of 'active lurking', I'd love to see what your definition of being a proactive gamesolver is.

Spoiler: Also also ALSO not the post I'm looking for but another relevant post

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

Thinking it's Toog and mastina

pichu potential powerwolf

I don't understand the townreads on Dunn?

Seriously--why are people townreading this?

Especially people who have played with Creature before, who have familiarity with him.

Why are you townreading this?

Because this level of emptiness and with these sorts of takes is not Creature's town meta.

Do you want me to actually link you town-Creature games and scum-Creature games for comparison? (Admittedly the most recent ones would be largely secondhand meta where I wouldn't be able to really give indepth laser-point-accuracy takes, but just in general, this is so obviously not Creature as town that I am overwhelmingly confident I've no need to be so laser-point-accurate, that just pointing in the general direction will be enough for the hammer to blow the point in.)

Spoiler: Also also also ALSO not what I'm looking for but STILL relevant

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

you know too many people in this game feel towny now
i think like 2 scum are playing very well probably

This is true enough; there are enough reasons to townread most players in the game, and if townreading all of them, you come up short in names to have for scum. So some scum, no matter what, are playing well enough to be townread.

When it comes to a D3 reassessment with Creature as a total read reversal and MURDERCAT going from possible-mason-that-looks-town to conftown, I do want to theorycraft there for trying to assess things in detail in terms of getting a coherent D3 readslist, buuuuuuut, I'm not sure the masons want me to before my place in the massclaim since that's the spot they want me to have my readslist in (and doing a theorycraft of revisiting/revising things does indeed mean that I'd be more or less making a readslist before my turn in the massclaim).

Mentally, I feel, similar to D1-->D2, that most of my townreads are still valid; I feel like most of those reads should stay the same. Mentally, there's only a small list of the townreads I feel I need to revisit and reevaluate, but again, not sure I'm allowed to outline my mental thoughts inthread yet.

Basically, though, without naming names: I still feel most of the more active town players are town. Maybe not all of them, but I still feel like most of the scum were in the more lurkery slots. But yes, there's at least a fair chance of at least one scum being in the more active slots.

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

is Mastina capable of going sicko mode on BM D1 like that as scum?

Theoretically? Yes, it's possible. I'm pretty sure I've done it before in some past scumgame of mine. I think rather notably I was hyper-aggressive in that game where I was a hydra with Katsuki and eliminated the BROseidon/AngryPidgeon hydra during the day who had perfect reads yet they got mislynched. So it's something that is something I theoretically have the capability to do.

In reality? Probably not, mafia games are hella draining especially going hyper-aggressive. As-is, it's hard to maintain as town (a lot of my townplay actually resolves around trying to get myself nightkilled early, just so that I can chill in the dead thread, because it's less stressful, less effort, once I am dead and every day I'm alive is a drain), but as scum instead of those thoughts being genuine I'd instead have to

fake

them. Which is harder than pouring genuine heart and soul into things.

It

might

be this but I could've sworn it was a response to someone else, my memory says Creature.

Spoiler: I also don't think it's this one

Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

@mastina: Can you link that recent scum game where you efforted once more?

Sure, it's this one here.

For the record: it might help you to iso MathBlade that game (and also read the dead thread since he did a good job of explaining that, while that was a

good

scum game of mine, why it was still a scumgame due to aspects of my towngame being absent.

Basically, it was a fairly good scumgame, but there were still gaps in it.

Also, I realize it's not as obvious while doing an iso, that it's something hard to detect even in the postgame, but anecdotally if you were in the game at the time and were able to observe it in real time you'd instantly see:
In that game, there was a larger space between my content compared to this game in quite a lot of spaces. I often didn't post if I didn't have a need to. And if I did post, I often posted, overall, less, except during specific times of engagement where I was able to exude my town aura. Which is to say: I could not, from the getgo, from the onset, continuously and throughout the entirety of the game, maintain the town aura, maintain the energy of my town self. And the few times I did manage to do so, I usually had good justification. (There is a notable pickup in my play when I was able to use mechanics, as mechanics is something I am really damn good at regardless of my alignment and which helps mimic town-mastina even as scumastina; Dunnstral was genuinely such a lurksack to an extent that I've never seen from him before that if not for knowing I was scum I'd have been convinced he was scum, so it was easy to pressure him as such.)

Like I said--something like that is a bit hard to see in the aftermath of the game, but if you were there at the time, you'd be like, "oh yeah, I totally see that", where I lacked the energy to maintain it full time and most of the time I did have the energy, I was given ammunition which made it easy to have done so.

This game, however, my energy has been pretty damn consistent, even during the times where I've felt less useful. I've not had a 100% absolutely identical energy level every single rl day in this game, but the energy still was high, shifted forms from one to another and still was high, and even when I had less to offer, was higher overall. I've had moments of lower energy from rl stuff, rl distractions, etc., but I feel that overall, I've been triumphing over that energy lull from those rl things and managed to still try to give a ton even when at a lowpoint in mental/physical/emotional wellbeing. (For instance, I've been sick since Thanksgiving. I said as much in this gamethread, you may recall. I said, "hey, fair warning, am sick, so may not be able to do as much as normal". I'm still sick, with that same sickness, because it never went away, it's still here a full month later, but in spite of that, I've still been doing a lot.)

So while it is, of course, theoretically possible for me to be scum.
It'd have been an even bigger improvement on my scumgame. If this were a scumgame of mine, it'd literally be the best scumgame I've ever pulled off.

I will say however that there's another big thing that does give me towncred tho; I literally wrote the book on not bussing. You can see it evident in that micro; in the game, were I town, I'd have been scumreading Gypyx from D1 because his content that game was something easy to scumread and hard to townread, but instead I forced a townread because I wanted to use my influence to influence the town into thinking Gypyx was town.

In this game I reassessed Bell on D2, added evidence to the pile for Bell being scum, continued to campaign for Bell's death even after the IC urged us to spare Bell, called Bell-DEB as scum-scum, called DEB scum the entire game, and ultimately was hugely involved in the deaths of both scum.

This doesn't clear me--I pushed DEB but never voted him until D4; pushing Bell over DEB means little when both are scum; I initially had Bell as town and townier than two flipped town even at the beginning of D2; I was late on the initial Bell wagon; regardless of who's scum in Solstice/Ircher/PBE/Spiffeh I've defended all four of them rather heavily so fit as being a scumbuddy for any of them; I can and have bussed before, so me bussing in spite of writing the article on not bussing doesn't inherently clear me, because while I have a strong aversion to bussing in general, I can bus if I feel there is an actual strong reason to which would give us more reward than the risk involved (and you can pretty easily make the case that I thought the bus was worth it, there's enough to weave half a dozen or so narratives where I justify it).

But while it doesn't clear me, I do feel like it at least gives me fairly good ground to stand on in terms of towncred.

Okay I can't find it.

Basically, for context: in that game I had a very very VERY strong push on Battle Mage D1. I was one of the main pushers on him--he flipped town.

On D2 and for the rest of the game, I was instantly more passive. (I can't find the quote where I explain my mindset on this tho. I could've sworn it was in response to a mason but I can't find it.)
OH, found it. Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

I dislike the slot is the very large tonal shift in playstyle from very aggressive Day 1 to more reserved every day afterwards.

Yes that does tend to happen when your largest scumread that you were being hyper-aggressive on and were genuinely convinced was scum ends up flipping town.

You'd have a better case on me if there

wasn't

a shift in my play after I was proven wrong.

But inherent to my play is a shift when I am proven wrong to pull back on the hyper-aggression and be more, so to speak, passively aggressive.

It wasn't a mason and it wasn't a proper wall where I explained it. Because the expansion was in a followthrough post, still not at a mason: Subject: PookyTheMagicalBear v Flavor Leaf (Game Over)

Mastina has been decently aggressive towards Creature, and now you, wouldn't you say? I am interested in what the big distinction you're noticing between her attitude towards BM and you two is. and I guess why you think that shift is inherently scummy. I would take it down a notch after hard tunneling a townie on the first day -- and i don't really see the big shift you're seeing, I suppose.

Eh while Toogaloo's arguments are by and large made in bad faith and highly disingenuous overall, this is one point of his where he does at least have some merit, but you're also right so your point has merit, too.

There is a difference between my D1 play and my D2+ play. But the shift in it has a very, stupidly obvious, cause; being wrong when I was the primary driver of the mislynch is something that makes me fear being the primary driver of another elimination. But I refuse to not contribute, I refuse to give nothing, I refuse to not give content, to entirely be in the back seat and just blindly sheep, so I still give my opinions, I still give my advice, I still give my reads and reasons on my content, just in a more passive way. Is actually a fully subconscious thing; it's not something I consciously choose to do.

And if you think that it was a one-game thing where I was doing it just that game, it happened in another game, too: if you compare my posting post-April townflip to my posting pre-April townflip there is a rather notably strong difference.

I can explain the difference fairly well, and have done so across multiple games: I am unafraid to push strong players who many people townread on D1. I am unafraid of pushing them as scum even if they are players that are renown for their scumhunting prowess, if I think they happen to be scum. I will push them strongly, with conviction, force, and devote 80+% of my posts towards eliminating them.

And after they flip town, I take a step back. I still push my scumreads, but I am more reserved, more measured, less assertive in them. More passive, but still strongly pushing. The difference being a difference between pushing as a leader (pre-push on the player I thought was scum flipping town) and pushing as a follower (post-push on the player I thought was scum flipping town).

This isn't something unique to one game; I've got like five or so games in recent history where this has happened, this one among them.

I am in the back seat.

That doesn't mean I won't backseat game/backseat drive tho.

lld? you said she was scum but didn't commit to her until a wagon existed a framework was there to work off of.

I think an iso of me will show that this is an unfair representation of my D1 play.

I was committed to pushing LLD before the wagon existed on her; over 50% of my posts were explaining why she was scum before I voted her.

It's true that I didn't switch my vote to her until there were other votes there!

It isn't true that I wasn't committed to pushing her because I very much was pushing her--in fact it was my push on her that helped form the wagon in the first place. DGB, the first vote on the LLD wagon, explicitly quoted my suspicion on LLD when she cast her LLD vote.

but the one person in your scumlist (me) who is talkative and might have some resistance - and you are too self-conscious or whatever to put yourself out there and actually push me.

This part is true enough tho--I don't have the ability to have the mindset to go full-aggro on you. I'm less confident on you being scum than I was on LLD being scum and LLD flipped town.

Which is to say--I can

see

you being town in a way I could not see from LLD. There are flashes of possible town from you, which I didn't see from LLD. You are my strongest scumread, but it even shows in the way I am talking to you: when I am 100% sure a slot is scum, I pretty much stop talking to them and when quoting their posts while I may respond to them I am explicitly talking to the town, not to the player. But you may be noting that this is me talking to you rather than me talking to the town; the proof of my doubt is in that alone.

I have doubts that you're scum--you are still my strongest scumread, but the doubts are there. Especially given that my strongest scumread that pretty much

lacked

that doubt flipped town. But while I have those doubts, the scumread, and being the strongest one, is still there. So I will still push it, I will still give my reasons and point out why I think you are scum, but explicitly more passively than I did LLD, yes. Because I don't have the confidence I did with LLD.

if im scum here and so many people are townreading me to the point where you can't pull a lim on me, why aren't you working harder to get me limmed?

Because while you're my strongest scumread, and it is my most confident scumread, 'most confident' does not mean my confidence is at LLD levels on you.

I think you are scum.
I think the townreads on you are wrong and that you're the deepscum.
But I also have in the back of my mind, "what if the group consensus is right and I am wrong?"; I also have in the back of my mind "what if the people seeing town are right and the potential town indicators are actually town indicators?"; I also have in my mind, "what if I am pushing another incredibly pro-scum elimination on town that wouldn't be eliminated without me?".

So it's easier to work with the town on eliminations while still voicing my thoughts, my opinions, my reads, and my reasons. It's also more pragmatic because there is in the back of my head the thought of, "what if I push a second elimination through on town? What happens to the town if I lead a second town mislynch?". The reality of the situation is, town probably loses--if I am not outright mislynched for the sin, then I get "girl who cried wolf"'d and even if it turns out third time's the charm, that I was wrong twice and right the third, nobody will follow me the third time and given the closer proximity to lylo, town is at a much higher risk of losing.

So pragmatically, I can't afford to be wrong. If I am wrong again, the town probably loses--so I

need

to be right. And a need to be right causes a more hesitant, reserved, passive approach. (That and personal pride is on the line. I have already failed to be better than last game so far, but it's still possible to be loosely on par. But a second wrong-elimination from me seals the deal and means I was legit a burden and my chances of redemption drop to nearly nothing.)

and so what if im political? what's your point.

That projection and hypocrisy are usually scumtells.