TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Ythan]

Infuriated on your behalf.

[Hopkirk]

hope your family are doing ok Bell

---

SS: Why did you vote Mastina I think Mastina's flip on Titus is pretty unlike scum her.

Bell: Because she keeps defending scum, attacked town LLD dishonestly and is voting the only person who had any reason to be voting Luca Blight. Instead of pushing or sniffing the less solid votes there. She's either playing honorary scum or the more simple explanation is just that she is scum because she's playing like scum.
SS: With all due respect to Mastina I don't think that's true. Townies can have off games too. And she's kind of infamous for projecting more confidence than she really has.
Bell: Citation needed on that projecting more confidence than she really has thing and it's not just you guessing at or giving her a more flattering picture than she deserves.
SS: A50 is also town btw.
SS: X4546: Also seems townie unless the self-hammer was planned.
Bell: Uh, why would it be planned?
SS: Not sure. But if it was planned I would be because there's very little bussing.
SS: Hopkirk pointing out Dunnstrall was an obvious vig feels pretty brazen.
SS: Mastina is town, love a good mastina self-meta wall now and then.
Lilith: I don't read any of her posts.
SS: I don't understand why Hopkirk is town read.
Lilith: Who said that, I thought they were just leaving him alone until the result is outed.
Bell: How do we know it's not just an an even night scum role?
SS: That makes less sense given what we know of the set up so far.
Lilith: Bell get off the Mastina wagon it's not going to move, compromise on Ythan or push titus or shut up and vote Agar.
Lilith: what happened to getting off the Mastina wagon?

SS's feels like they're coming at it from two perspectives at the same time. it's not impossible to reconcile, but it reads weirdly
a.) someone who's been keeping up with the game/has confident reads
b.) someone who hasn't been discussing the game with Bell at all as they don't even seem to know why Bell is voting Mastina despite the vote been down for a while. if this was SS's first weigh in then i'd expect more than just thoughts on like 3 people? thoughts on agar for example. if it's not the first weigh in then what's your discussion about Mastina been like prior to this? @Bell
also one of the team is shading me and they're talking like they haven't talked about me before? that's weird if they're consistently keeping up + talking with you

also, the flow of the discussion isn't really a back and forth. when SS says 'A50 is town' nobody seems to respond to that. that might be paraphrasing though. the lack of fluff is also either paraphrasing or unnatural (if my team is any indication).

[Hopkirk]

do any of the people voting someone other than (Bell/Agar) or mastina want to talk more about that because the Bell wagon is the same people as the agar wagon and it feels like nothing's moved in ages

[innocentvillager]

i feel like the main wagons rn have all been kind of MIA lately (except mastina) and i don't know how to feel about that

(jjh, Winter, Bell, Titus, AGar)

[OkaPoka]

wow deadline is pretty close

iv i appoint you to herd wagons etc. my availability will be plummeted these coming 2 ish weeks as midterm szn has begun for me

[Xtoxm]

basically like hop said, the convo has no flow, or fluff to it
and it goes back all the way to the beginning of d3
its such a small amt of content for that amt of time, and for someone that keeps talking abt how he has a team helping him and asking why others arent talking abt teammates
lilith loves talking way more than that
it looks nothing like the convos im having with auro
it looks like a scum convo after you remove all the stuff you cant paraphrase in a town way to remove the perspective of scum talking to a scum teammate

[Almost50]

Eh..

VOTE: Bell

On another note, I hope your grandma is doing well by now.

[Hopkirk]

i want to see more expanded summaries of Bell's chat logs.

only redact stuff like
- long discussions on tft
- teammates pointing out that 'racism isn't cute' in response to the mod's posts
- cat pics (actually keep these if there's any)

[mastina]

Ngl I'm mostly posting now because, 1: I logged in due to getting an email about a review PM, and 2: after logging in I posted in the speakeasy so felt I was obligated to post in gamethreads especially given the nature of the post I made.

Once more a reminder I'm currently both V/LA and depressed.

You think wrong and will be proven so tomorrow. I guarantee you that jjh is town this game.

you understand we will policy you short of a literal innocent child claim tomorrow if this is wrong? you sure that's cool with you mastina?

As a matter of fact, it is indeed fine with me, because I know jjh is town here and tomorrow will explain exactly why.

do any of the people voting someone other than (Bell/Agar) or mastina want to talk more about that because the Bell wagon is the same people as the agar wagon and it feels like nothing's moved in ages

I realize I'm the exact group you said not to talk.

But I want to talk about it anyway.

At this stage, I just really want it to be D4 so that I can explain my jjh read and my stances in the game more clearly.

So yes I do kinda just want the day to be over with an elimination on literally anyone who isn't {jjh, mastina}.
Well, within reason, obv.
You're off the table until massclaim due to the Universal Backup turned 3x Neapolitan having a result on you.
IV is so very clearly town here that I'd rather a no-elimination than an elimination on him.
Almost50 is basically conftown here, too, with his claim and role.
Xtoxm is so very clearly town here that I'd rather a no-elimination than an elimination on him.

So not those names.

But when I mean I want the day to be over with an elimination on literally anyone not in the above.
I mean it.

I realize this list of leftovers includes {Cephrir, Ythan}, both slots that I am townreading rather strongly, yes, I know. Those townreads are still there, but not in the same strength of caring as the above. I'd be incredibly unhappy with their elimination but I wouldn't so strongly fight against it that I'd rather no elimination than them. (Sorry, I just can't muster the...uhh, whatever the antonym of apathy is...to do so. Shouldn't matter tho since Ceph/Ythan probably aren't getting wagoned anyway since I'm pretty sure both slots are pretty universally town anyway tho.)

But pragmatically, given that Ceph/Ythan are universal townreads anyway (and thus won't be wagoned), the list of players I'd vote is literally:
{Titus, AGar, Bell, Winter Flakes, OkaPoka}.

I still see signs Titus could be town but I also see exactly how and why she would be scum here.
I can see Winter Flakes as town but I can also see Winter Flakes as scum.
I actively think that the scumteam is at least 2 if not all 3 of {AGar, Bell, OkaPoka}, but while I think all three of them are scum weakest to strongest in that order of strength, I can see them flipping town. I think a scum flip is more likely, but a townflip is fully possible.

And I legit just think. ANY flip on ANY of those five, for today, is the best move, just to get us to D4.

[innocentvillager]

But pragmatically, given that Ceph/Ythan are universal townreads anyway (and thus won't be wagoned), the list of players I'd vote is literally:
{Titus, AGar, Bell, Winter Flakes, OkaPoka}.

this is the exact order in which i would vote them tbh huh

[Bell]

Deconstructing Agar’s case. I’ll follow up on each of these points in the subsequent agar case when I eventually get the time for it. This should be enough that y’all decide to start voting Agar though…




2.) Hopkirk says things then clarifies the meaning later.
Counterpoint- this is how I talk/think.
Evidence- here’s some posts from my most recent game (town obviously) that finished before team mafia began.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12485305
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12494327
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12475737

1.[/b ] that's without anyone actually commenting on issues with my phrasing. if it's commented on obviously i'm going to be clearer. everything i said follows logically in terms of meaning and your misrepresentation of it nobody agrees with. you keep saying there's tons of examples but you have ONE from before you said there were tons, it's been disproven so isn't valid, and you haven't brought up others.

2.

For more, read any/all of my other games because this is my style. I’m aware my wording can sometimes be confusing. There’s a solution to that – ask me what I mean if you’re confused what I mean. Agar has never done this.

At no point has agar

asked me to clarify

what I mean. He’s exclusively gone to pointing out that it must come from scum when he’s claiming my meaning is ambiguous/fake instead of asking clarifying questions to

actually work out

what I mean.

[Choosing not to do this is bad if he aims to seriously work out my alignment since if he’s trying to show that I change my meaning when asked about it then… he isn’t taking the obvious step to try and legitimately do that. He’s instead using each alleged ‘example’ to say ‘see this is why Hop is scum’. This is working backwards from a position while using whatever I say to try and further justify it, and reeks of posturing.

3.[/b ]Notably, nobody who’s commented on any of these examples have agreed with him, people have disagreed (eg Dunn who is town), nobody who’s familiar with my play is in agreement with him while people who ARE familiar with it are disagreeing with him. He’s instead relying on some guy I’ve never heard let alone played with.

(these two are less comprehensive as they don’t factor into my case on Agar so they’re inherently less substantial)


3.) I’m getting bored tbh. See literally any game because I constantly ask people what they think about x or their thoughts when I’m in conflict with someone else. Here’s one example of me asking how they viewed me (I was town obviously) based on my half of a toxic 1v1 (what I called it before, during, and afterwards) because one is enough to disprove this when you can find it in any of my games -eg https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12475447
ctrl f that thread with 'what do you think' or 'how do you read' or 'how are you reading' for examples of some of this other stuff

4.

) Did you read the last game where I attacked Unwnd the moment he started pushing me? See also… gee is it any other game again? It sure is. If people push me then I push back. Sometimes that’s with scumreads, othertimes it’s just by throwing shade at them. Like with LLD in Death Curse that I mentioned a few times earlier when I had them as locktown and they scumread me. I just kept throwing shade at them in basically half my posts- stuff like accusing them of being a bad townleader who was dooming us all for x/y reason.


Additions

- Ooh, it’s stuff that Agar didn’t comment on at the time that’s not even true. If people think my reasons for townlocking players are invalid maybe they should comment on them. Don’t pay any attention to Agar here (because what he’s saying isn’t reflective of reality) who, instead of asking more questions about the reads, just says they’re invalid as the executive summary of the read isn’t good enough for them hence must be 100% of it. I still hard stand by each of the reads if anyone was wondering.

6.

- Can anyone read my iso and seriously say there’s no reasons there why I don’t like Agar? This is objectively untrue. A more substantial case I need time to make that I only really have over the weekend (unless I’m pissed off by stuff like… agar)

- I have a shitton of scumhunting. Well, I say scumhunting, most of it is townhunting since I prefer to find town then POE. As is very clear. See multiple games where I’ve described my style in detail to be this. Agar is my most confident scumread, but I’m also confident the rest of the scum are within my POE. I ask questions of other people on reads as it helps me sort them + I’m willing to sheep my townreads reads. None of this is meaningful.

- This isn’t actually saying anything? It’s saying ‘Hop’s reads are wifom. Scum like to use wifom. Hence, Hop is scum’. That’s just… bad logic at best?

Note - my agar case is mostly pointing out how bad his progression/read on me is since it's outside of something i can see coming from a reasonable town perspective who's actually thinking about things rather than trying to justify a terribly flimsy read that he got called out on but somehow isn't getting called out on by enough people to die... there's not a smoking gun beyond that, it's just constant terrible interactions in regards to me

Deleted the RC stuff because I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.

1. Counterpoint nobody read Agar's case or decided to grapple with that point specifically out of all the points he made.

2. He made an observation and he's under no obligation to ask you to clarify what you meant by what you said. The best you can say is that he didn't try to engage you directly, but he doesn't need to, to call a spade a spade.

3. It's incredibly common for people to disagree in mafia. You're trying to make it notable that a townie disagreed with Agar that later died, but this is notable in the same way that my ice cream melted and also, an airplane crashed over the Himalayas at the same time. Coincidence? I think not.

4 is just explanations for your own behavior. You're probably just defensive as either alignment.

5. Your case can be summarized into the bullet point that Agar didn't engage with you. I am not terribly impressed by large walls.

Spoiler: aside

Thanks for well wishes, she's fine.

[Cephrir]

I see you prepping a trajectory to turn on me when you need to mastina

[implosion]

47

It is a Lucas number. It is also a Keith number because its digits appear as successive terms earlier in the series of Lucas numbers: 2, 1, 3, 4, 7, 11, 18, 29, 47, ...[5]

Vote Count 3.12

Bell

(5): Xtoxm, Hopkirk, Titus, mastina, Almost50

mastina

(3): OkaPoka, AGar, Bell

Titus

(2): Cephrir, innocentvillager

Winter Flakes

(1): jjh927

jjh927

(1): Winter Flakes

Not Voting

(1): Ythan

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate. Deadline is set for 1:00 AM PST on March 9, in (expired on 2021-03-09 05:00:00).

[jjh927]

I should probably be paying more attention here huh

I'm very confident on Mastina town and fairly confident on Titus town. I don't really think Bell is scum here

I'd probably be happier to vote Agar if I have to move off winter flakes (alt of Uncrowned) but that wagon is gone.

[Hopkirk]

I should probably be paying more attention here huh

I'm very confident on Mastina town and fairly confident on Titus town. I don't really think Bell is scum here

I'd probably be happier to vote Agar if I have to move off winter flakes (alt of Uncrowned) but that wagon is gone.

the wagon changed from agar to bell with the same people on it and i'd prefer agar

[Winter Flakes]

do any of the people voting someone other than (Bell/Agar) or mastina want to talk more about that because the Bell wagon is the same people as the agar wagon and it feels like nothing's moved in ages

ive said my piece on jjh and there's a chance this is just bias but i'm pretty shocked more people aren't SRing that slot. i see no townie behavior there at all

like unless this is just super lazy town who is unwilling to engage with their SR (which seems super unlikely because jjh said himself that i'm like a really weak SR which in of itself on day 3 is weird imo especially because he's just staying on me) then i just don't see this being town at all

bell/titus are the only other reasonable elims today imo with bell having a decent shot at flipping red while jjh is much higher imo, titus being least likely of the 3 i'd say

agar wagon was bad

mastina wagon is bad

[Hopkirk]

where did you say your piece?

[Hopkirk]

i did an iso search and you haven't mentioned any thoughts on agar before this or even offered a read as far as i can tell and that's super weird. why is he town

[Xtoxm]

a lot of people suspect jjh but mastina is hard shielding him so lets go to d4 and find out if thats all bullshit
i have a fear that mastina is town with a townread on scum and the mech softing is fake which will take her down with him but
WE WILL SEE.

[Winter Flakes]

where did you say your piece?

if you checked my iso you'll see most of my recent posts have centred around jjh but it's kind of hard to keep talking about someone who is legit avoiding interacting with you at all costs so...?

i did an iso search and you haven't mentioned any thoughts on agar before this or even offered a read as far as i can tell and that's super weird. why is he town

i dont think i've given an explicit read on agar yes but i'm pretty sure i've said at least a couple times that i don't like the wagon tbh it just felt like an attempt at a bail out elim or some shit like im 90% sure it's just based on his style which fmpov is similar to last game and i made similar assessments of dunn/dgb and they're both green so im relatively confident in agar town

[Winter Flakes]

i have a fear that mastina is town with a townread on scum

yes. big yes. this is also why i think jjh has gone practically silent on actually engaging me or providing even a slight reason for SRing me outside of mastina's explanation of PoE lmao

[Hopkirk]

jjh i'm townreading because mastina is, otherwise they were in about the same place in my reads list as WF

tbh it just felt like an attempt at a bail out elim or some shit like

jjh didn't join it or anything, who else do you think is scum and scum pushing it?

so how similar is his style to lastgame that it's meant you haven't had any thoughts on the arguments against him that aren't related to playstyle? he doesn't feel overly similar to me and 'meta' with no elaboration doesn't sway me

[Titus]

Quick, answer me this, who is scum on the Bell wagon? Answer: No one.

[jjh927]

I've fallen for that one once already this game

[Titus]

I've fallen for that one once already this game

When?