I am simply trying to clarify this muddled view of the game I have. And the only way I know how to do it is by putting people on edge, pushing hard. If I thought there were others that were correctly viewing the game and my slot, and were probing aggressively, I wouldn’t feel the need to do it. I would take the role that I like better - which is to from the background a bit express my point of view. Here I’m having to dig for it, and I’m not comfortable in that position. And I’m also getting a lot of the questions and skepticism from the leading voices in the game. And if Dunn flips Town, it’s not going to get easier.In post 2149, Momrangal wrote:Why are you being so aggressive Andres? I don't recall you acting in this manner at all Iin bears.
Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER
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it was the inverse. and we were not, ico hadn't even posted at the time you sent him the message. also i started scumreading him as soon as he was posting and askdlkfhIn post 2141, VP Baltar wrote:
Or was it the inverse? I can't rememberIn post 2140, VP Baltar wrote:I did this exact play as a friendly neighbor when Datisi and Iconeum were hardcore town locked in a recent game.
what were were talking about again
i know. i vividly remember chatting with baltar about that and us agreeing that duchess' push is probably townie. the joke is that i have asked momrangal about that part of her reads not once, but twice now, and i'm still getting ignored.In post 2142, maxwell wrote:
No, really, I went back to Baltars ISO and...he didn't call Duchess scum or vote there.In post 2034, Datisi wrote:
thonkIn post 2021, maxwell wrote:He didn't push duchess as a scumread at all and I'm not sure what you're seeing there exactly.
*cough* dunno if 2062 got lost in the crossfire *cough*In post 2143, maxwell wrote:I could vote Dunn since his vote on GC was that bad, could still see it coming from town, but would be shocked, shocked if {Dunn, midway, mom} contains 0 scum
lol why so aggressive?In post 2148, Momrangal wrote:Great. Anything useful to add?
pedit: oh lovely. mind talking about your read on baltar-easy-pushing-duchess?I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”~M- Cookie Monster
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was literally about to say just thisIn post 2153, Cookie Monster wrote:I forgot about this not gonna lieI agree with everything Elements is posting - Papa Zito
It's scummy as fak tho - Gamma Emerald- VP Baltar
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In post 1050, VP Baltar wrote:
This is literally from 30 or so pages ago. Are you asking me if I think you both could be scum now or then?In post 1025, Duchess wrote:I thought of a way to make this real easy for you, VP.
Let me be more to-the-point. Are you saying you're suspicious of us both being scum? If that's what this means then that's the answer to my question, and I don't understand your aversion to having that on record in your ISO. Otherwise I have no idea what you're getting at and I need an explanation.In post 491, Duchess wrote:
Makes you suspicious of what exactly?In post 329, VP Baltar wrote:GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.
When I wrote it, I was saying that the aggression coming from each of you pinged me because it was so heightened for early game. As I said the first time you asked me this, the question for me was whether the aggression you guys were putting out was real or manufactured, and if the latter, who was manufacturing it? This was all in the answer you got originally and I don't know what you are confused about.
You're being similarly aggressive throughout this line of questioning. Saying things like "you probably don't want this in your ISO", when you're just having me repeat the same fucking answer you got on page 14.In post 1051, VP Baltar wrote:
Lol oh really.In post 1022, Duchess wrote:Let me make something clear: you are the one putting emphasis on the "caught". I said I caught them online like how you catch the last half of your favourite movie on Showtime, or when you tell a friend you'll catch 'em later. For some reason you are latching onto that detail and running a mile with it, making it out like I claimed to have caught Al Capone.
Here is the heart of your statement in Post 989.
You write several sentences about this fight with elements and how you had him on the ropes, and WHY OH WHY DIDN'T VP CONSIDER THAT WHEN HE TALKED TO RTP!!!!![Elements] fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.
To now say, after I spent a bunch of time looking back at this, that you were actually just telling a friend "catch you later", is complete garbage.
I'm not going to wall war you, so this is the last thing I'm saying on this topic, but you are either tunneled so far up your own ass you won't be seeing daylight until 2050, or your scum who thinks you're going to score cheap points off someone. Either way, you look pretty useless.
Largely, I wasnt fond of the way he is attacking her here when he explicitly stated that she was a null read. There were also a few more in his iso where he is straight up diminishing her value as a person and as a player some examples that caught my eye were these posts.In post 1052, VP Baltar wrote:
Last thing I'll say on this, is this is a hilarious walkback after I pressed you for the actual specifics -- like I asked you for the posts -- you said I missed.In post 1022, Duchess wrote:I continued to try to directly engage Elements and eventually tried to rally for pressure votes. There is only so much you can do on an online forum to get someone's attention. I didn't have any sort of big angry emotional post or anything because I was trying to get them to respond, not scare them out of the thread. But it was extremely frustrating to me in the moment.
Hell, I even said to you I might have missed something!
But when asked what I should have saw beyond a post where you said "elements, post 225", you tell me you didn't actually have any big angry posts I should have seen because you didn't want to scare them out of the thread.
*Farting noises commence*
In post 123, VP Baltar wrote:
It seems a little reachy to me. Duchess made a fair point questioning Elements' reads list.In post 122, Datisi wrote:
do you have an opinion on it?In post 105, VP Baltar wrote:That's a very spicy take indeed.
Duchess probably is reaching on Testa, but her style as town is fairly verbose, so I can see someone being thrown by that. It is all a bit early to tell what is smoke and what is fire.In post 994, VP Baltar wrote:
Boo hoo.In post 989, Duchess wrote:Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.
I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.
At the same time, I Isoed VPB now and like, with the most recent claim I'm doing a conditional 180 on their slotIn post 1047, VP Baltar wrote:
Oh this is fascinating. I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.In post 1037, Elements wrote:Spoiler:
This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.
Duchess' posts are a fucking incoherent mess. Without quoting duchess, I would like you to please tell me the nature of the argument duchess is making and what I'm ignoring about it. I want to see you state this originally, since you say it is very clear.- Momrangal
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I mean, reading back over those posts, I can say I was definitely annoyed with the way duchess was playing throughout the game, which came across to me as simultaneously disengaged and hyper aggressive.In post 2161, Momrangal wrote:I basically don't like how you have so much more to say about a supposed null lean town read than a strong scum read. BUT I caught something early day one and I maybe expecting some results from what I've seen
As much as I think Dunn could be scum here, he is pretty calm and doesn't aggressively misinterpret game statements.
I also acknowledge your perspective is likely very different since you weren't involved in real time.
Anyhow, just seemed a weird thing to say.YOUR AD HERE- VP Baltar
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Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game- VP Baltar
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Let's talk a little off wagon analysis from D1:
Alright, first off, looking at how scattered this off wagon stuff is difficult. My gut tells me scum were avoiding the Italiano wagon, in part, because there was really no consolidation elsewhere. I'm mostly looking for consistency in reads here and generally unlikelihood that the vote was shift the game state away from Italiano in those final hours.off wagon votes wrote:maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb
midwaybear (1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
RLotus (1): Elements
Green Crayons:
GC definitely talks about Harumi suspicion off and on, and gets into with RTP a little bit over RTP's towntell on Harumi.
GC's maxwell vote comes about two days before deadline, citing his dissatisfaction with the Italiano wagon. There are a couple posts where he asks if people will join a maxwell speed wagon after his vote. So, some follow up, but it's not hugely convincing.
Dunn
I generally agree with what Datisi has said here. The vote on midway was extremely last minute and came out of nowhere. Arguably his prior vote on Elements had a more likely chance of succeeding at that point. It just felt like a move that was devoid of town motivation to get an actual Italiano alternative.
Andres
Andres' progression on GC yesterday isn't SUPER clear, but he shifts from a null read on GC to a vote over this post:
There is definitely follow up and a little bit of sparing with GC after the vote ( which happened several days before deadline), plus follow up today. This vote doesn't feel like a forced avoidance of Italiano.In post 1575, Andresvmb wrote:
Yeah I would nuke this too.In post 1507, Green Crayons wrote:I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.
I will say on reread, I still hate this post though because it feels like TMI:
In post 1674, Andresvmb wrote:
I really hope Italiano is Scum, only because if not, these sorts of posts are going to look so Scummy in retrospect.In post 1673, Datisi wrote:
more or less, yeah.In post 1671, maxwell wrote:Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?
so you *are* being bussed, thanks!In post 1672, ItalianoVD wrote:People are smart they’ll figure it out.Momrangal (Battle Mage)
The vote on elements first happens like a week before deadline and BM definitely follows up on it, sparing with Elements pretty aggressively. Then we get a cycle of votes through various people and the toxic fight with RTP.
BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.
Given I also had a town read on the BM slot, I really don't think this is scum off wagon.
Duchess (Cookie Monster)
This is impossible to judge. Duchess voted me well before deadline and got into a poorly articulated wall fight with me after lurking for a long time. My gut here is probably still town, and they were falling behind without reading much of the context of the game.
I can definitely say this vote wasn't meant as an easy sluff off the Italiano wagon though, as Duchess wasn't really around enough for that to be true.
Elements
Elements is probably on the scummier side of these off wagon votes.
They first vote Lotus around three days before deadline after they first attacked me in the VP/Duchess interaction...which IIRC was an offshoot of the Lotus case on me. When I attacked the Lotus case and explained why it was bunk, Elements then had Lotus at the bottom of their scumlist with maxwell. I found that slightly strange.
Elements then unvotes Lotus for maxwell, and then flops back very last minute.
In post 1600, Elements wrote:
I don't think anyone I want to vote out is getting voted out and I don't want any of the people it looks like are going to be voted out to be voted out. I also liked maxewll's most recent catch upIn post 1594, Datisi wrote:@elements why are you voting lotus now?
That's Elements' explanation for the Lotus vote and follow up.In post 1677, Elements wrote:why is this day not over
They could be very disengaged town here, but it is obvious they are also not really trying to get their preferred wagon for the day and are fine with Italiano as an outcome despite Italiano being one of their top tier town reads.YOUR AD HERE- VP Baltar
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He's definitely a little bit wallpaper. I don't know if I find him super scummy personally given I could say that about several players (Cookie Monster, Elements, etc)In post 2164, Momrangal wrote:Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the gameYOUR AD HERE- VP Baltar
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None of what I've done is IIOA, that's a pure buzzword statement that doesn't even apply to me. Accuse me of having weak reads or being underwhelming, IIOA? Get the absolute hell out of here with that garbage.In post 2164, Momrangal wrote:Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game- maxwell
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What on earth does the claim have to do with Baltar?In post 2157, Momrangal wrote:At the same time, I Isoed VPB now and like, with the most recent claim I'm doing a conditional 180 on their slot- VP Baltar
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When is later?In post 2171, midwaybear wrote:Present. I'll give some thoughts later, but can answer any questions.YOUR AD HERE- Momrangal
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