Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

[maxwell]

Andres, can you try to show me some examples of Baltar acting in an opportunistic manner? Just some links would be fine.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, can you try to show me some examples of Baltar acting in an opportunistic manner? Just some links would be fine.

Sure I will try and put some examples out there.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[VP Baltar]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

[Andresvmb]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

Why are you pressuring me so hard to give you a 3/3 solve? Like why is that important at this stage? I have some TRs, some players I could see as Scum but I am null on right now, and two players I would to execute today: you, and maxwell. From going back to the early part of the game, I think Harumi's posts look bad. That is the slot maxwell replaced into.

[Andresvmb]

^two players I would vote to execute today*

[VP Baltar]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

Why are you pressuring me so hard to give you a 3/3 solve? Like why is that important at this stage? I have some TRs, some players I could see as Scum but I am null on right now, and two players I would to execute today: you, and maxwell. From going back to the early part of the game, I think Harumi's posts look bad. That is the slot maxwell replaced into.

I'm pressuring you because despite what you are saying, I think your viewpoint is heavily reliant on me flipping scum, and that's not going to happen. I'm trying to either break you out of a bad tunnel or unmask how flimsy your view of the game is for the rest of the town.

[Andresvmb]

How am I tunneling you? I have probably poked and voted half the game, and re-read different parts of the game multiple times, and expressed reads on everybody. Could I be wrong on you? Yeah, I can always be wrong. It happens all the time. But everybody does this to some extent - we all makes unconscious or conscious decisions to SR those that we feel are pushing players we either TR or don't think deserve to be pushed a certain way. Like why is that surprising?

[Andresvmb]

And why are you so intent on breaking me out of a bad tunnel? Weren't you SR'ing me like a minute ago? So am I Town or Scum?

[VP Baltar]

And why are you so intent on breaking me out of a bad tunnel? Weren't you SR'ing me like a minute ago? So am I Town or Scum?

I did not say I was scum reading you. I honestly don't know your alignment. I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

[Andresvmb]

I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

Be more specific. Outside of me pushing you now, which obviously you'll call garbage, what else have I done that has been bad in terms of general takes?

[VP Baltar]

I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

Be more specific. Outside of me pushing you now, which obviously you'll call garbage, what else have I done that has been bad in terms of general takes?

Your reaction to the GC claim. Your "hunt on wagon" malarkey. Your reaction to the Dunn wagon at the start of the day.

[Andresvmb]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Can you clarify to me why you have Momrangal as lockTown again?

[Andresvmb]

Your reaction to the GC claim. Your "hunt on wagon" malarkey. Your reaction to the Dunn wagon at the start of the day.

I can absolutely be frustrated at a player withholding information in a way that I feel does not help the Town. I have explained in excruciating detail why I have acted the way I have acted today. So my "hunt on wagon" is not malarkey. And in fact, my top two SRs at this stage are both players that landed on Italiano. So how is that malarkey, exactly?

And what is wrong with my reaction to the Dunn wagon? I tend to be skeptical that a group of players that collectively voted for Town would succeed in voting out Scum when agreeing with each other again. How is this even remotely controversial?

[VP Baltar]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Can you clarify to me why you have Momrangal as lockTown again?

Because Battle Mage was obvtown.

[VP Baltar]

So my "hunt on wagon" is not malarkey. And in fact, my top two SRs at this stage are both players that landed on Italiano. So how is that malarkey, exactly?

Yeah man. Very recent development indeed.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah man. Very recent development indeed.

Perhaps it's been recent, even though my take wasn't. But so what? You keep getting stuck on something that is no longer the case for no good reason at all. If you are not willing to describe me as either alignment, and mostly seem to be what, confused? at how I am going about the game, then why are you so intent on fighting my views? Why not just ignore me then?

[VP Baltar]

And what is wrong with my reaction to the Dunn wagon?

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely. Further, it wasn't like you scumhunted those folks at all. So yeah, your reaction was not great.

[VP Baltar]

Why not just ignore me then?

I mean, you're trying to yeet me...

If you're town, I'm going to get you to get your shit together. If you're scum, I'm not going to sit here and let you control the game.

[Andresvmb]

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely.

Wait, maybe I misremember it. Wasn't Dunn at E-1? What was so unlikely about them potentially getting executed quickly?

[VP Baltar]

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely.

Wait, maybe I misremember it. Wasn't Dunn at E-1? What was so unlikely about them potentially getting executed quickly?

I think it was E-2.

[Andresvmb]

i believe that's Y-1, just fyi.

No, it was E-1.

[Andresvmb]

931 - RTP put it better than me. This reasoning is precisely why Battle Mage is not and should not be thought of as lockTown.

[Andresvmb]

VPB as Scum makes a lot of sense to me. Here is why:

[Page 15] - 363 - So by this point, some players had expressed Scum Reads of Italiano. From where I stand, this post accomplishes a few things. It allows VPB to easily change their mind (it’s not particularly definitive), while gauging interest for executing there. I would also note that up until this point, VPB was quite devoid of positions in the game.
392 - And here, VPB calls Italiano “opportunistic enough to be bad Scum”.
[Page 17] - 416 - The big switch regarding midway bear over where they ultimately landed D1 (even though VPB landed on Italiano for similar reasons) is also very confusing. This is only the first time that VPB calls midway bear Town. But it won’t be the last.
[Page 18] - 434 - Here is VPB encouraging the view that Italiano is Scum without getting directly involved.
And in 442, VPB echoes Duchess’ concern about Italiano seemingly looking to avoid calling anybody Scum, again without placing a vote or going too hard against Italiano (who by now had verbalized some suspicion of VPB, which became even more concrete in 445).
459 - This is really where I start to think that VPB reveals too much about themselves. Notice Datisi’s reaction to Italiano’s 454 (where they called themselves bad Town and began to express a lot of frustration and some defeatism) - a complete lack of empathy. If anything, frustration that Italiano is essentially saying that they won’t contribute much to the game. I can very much understand Datisi’s reaction, actually. It’s the same reaction I am having towards DGB’s posting today. VPB? They actually TR the emotional response, but describe every word coming from Italiano as Scummy.

This is what I would fundamentally describe as opportunistic. VPB isn’t definitely saying Italiano is Town. Or Scum. But if enough players continue pushing Italiano, then VPB can safely vote there and not seem like they are totally flip-flopping.

[Page 23] - 570 - Even after describing the emotion as coming from Town, and after Italiano has come back with some renewed interest in solving the game, VPB announces that they will switch their vote over to Italiano “soon ish” (but does not actually go through with it).

[Page 25] - 624 - And here, VPB actually describes their progression of Italiano in a very curious way, and begins to question RLotus for opposing their preferred execution of Dunn by casting doubt on the merit of Italiano as Scum (but in a very vague way - basically saying that their gut pinged Town there).

667 - And this is opportunism at its finest. Too Scummy to be Scum, but I will vote there to “move things along”.

684 - If Dunn flips Town, this is the sort of argument I would focus on. This is hard to scrutinize, since it is entirely based on a prior experience where Dunn lurked successfully as Scum.

[Page 31] - 758 - VPB again piggybacking off of someone else’s suspicions without exactly expressing a solid point of view. This time, however, it was on RLotus.

[Page 33] - 819 - After Battle Mage replaces Testarossa (and RTP indicates that BM had tanked the slot into solid Scum territory), VPB decides to put a vote down on RTP, who we also know is Town, directly disagreeing with RTP (see the immediate next post). If VPB flips Scum, look for associatives here.

825 - VPB making a case against RTP because they are chaining mis-eliminations and weirdly contradicting themselves is funny in light of the fact that RTP was Town.

Funny enough, RLotus notices this pattern of play in 837, 838, and SRs VPB (correctly in my updated view). 869, 870, 890, 945 are a good re-counting of the pattern I am now noticing as well.

VPB’s reaction to #837 and #838? Defensiveness, hiding behind their push on Dunn as their only major push and therefore not opportunistic (which btw, is so convenient), and attaching themselves to Datisi. This is the main reason I don’t think {Datisi, VPB} are Scum buddies. VPB is actively saying that if you SR them for their play, you should SR Datisi as well. I think a Partner does not do this.

842 - This is now obvious bullshit.

Note that part of VPB’s reasoning behind their push of RTP (that they were acting in a TMI way towards Italiano) completely disintegrated upon closer scrutiny (scrutiny RTP applied), yet they do not seem to rescind their SR of RTP. Rather, they find another reason to continue pushing there.

906 - This reaction to RLotus’ suspicions is revealing. Obviously RLotus v. VPBaltar is not SvS. This is also the reason I felt we were being led astray by Scum, and placed 1 Scum in that group. This feels correct still, with VPB as the main contender for Scum amongst the three.

921 - And this is a very general way of deflecting pressure without directly combating RLotus’ detailed explanation.

955 - Does anybody think this is a Towny vote? Because it’s not. RLotus went through a tremendous amount of trouble to justify their vote and reasoning behind their view of VPB. What does VPB do? Vote RLotus in an obvious attempt at a discredit.

And this is only after re-reading through Page 39.