Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

Momrangal (Battle Mage)

The vote on elements first happens like a week before deadline and BM definitely follows up on it, sparing with Elements pretty aggressively. Then we get a cycle of votes through various people and the toxic fight with RTP.

BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.

Given I also had a town read on the BM slot, I really don't think this is scum off wagon.

Yeah I see it. So if Elements and Battle Mage are less likely to be SvS, you either need one of the PRs to be Scum, or one of the loud voices together with some of the slots that seem to be more on the sidelines. It can’t be all of the players not pushing things aggressively then. Most likely.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.

I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear. I also think that the paranoia surrounding GC that RLotus and I expressed earlier could have easily resulted in a push for GC’s head. Unless maxwell and GC are aligned, does maxwell at this stage have much of an incentive to do that? They could have said absolutely nothing, and GC could theoretically have been pushed to execution. If GC is Town, at that point we’ve probably lost.

There are a lot of unclaimed people. Unless you think everyone else is VT.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t want a mass claim btw. We don’t at this stage need better visibility into maxwell’s role. I think it probably just helps Scum if maxwell is Town.

[Andresvmb]

And since I don’t think there’s enough momentum just yet against maxwell, what exactly are we hoping to get? The potential for their claim is already pretty narrow.

[Andresvmb]

There are a lot of unclaimed people. Unless you think everyone else is VT.

For now I will decline answering this question.

[Andresvmb]

Some combination of that with you as an outside dark horse seems like a reasonable combination.

I have to say, I’m flattered that people constantly think I can play like this as Scum. Yet nobody on this forum has seen it yet! Hopefully at some point, so we can stop thinking I’m even a half decent Scum player.

[Momrangal]

datisi
DBG
GC
Dunn
VPB

Max

Lotus
Andres

That's about where I'm standing.

In my mind Max, lotus, Andre's makes the most sense. Max's play is as I already described but the way they defend GC is pretty top tier scum play especially if they are shutting down a theory that scumbuddy Andre's is pushing.

DBG and Dunn are town through how they are both playing and I think going after either of them has a massive amount of scum motivation because at this stage scum need to keep their options open.

The field looks about 3:6 and I thought I saw someone saying that we lose if we miseliminate today and I'm not sure where that came from.

I think we should have everyone else out though just so that we have clarity on what's going on. I think most of what's left is VTs anyway

[Andresvmb]

I mean Momrangal has a universe where both RLotus and I are the Scummiest players in the game. This is insane.

[Momrangal]

Who should be scum in my perspective?

[Andresvmb]

Who should be scum in my perspective?

I don’t care because I’m pretty sure you’re Scum. You’ve played with Town me, and you know how I am. You’ve kept it super vague around me, yet are constantly voting me for bullshit reasons. Of how I’m a bit too aggressive. Or how my reads are forming or something is Scummy.

[RLotus]

I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.

I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear. I also think that the paranoia surrounding GC that RLotus and I expressed earlier could have easily resulted in a push for GC’s head. Unless maxwell and GC are aligned, does maxwell at this stage have much of an incentive to do that? They could have said absolutely nothing, and GC could theoretically have been pushed to execution. If GC is Town, at that point we’ve probably lost.

If maxwell and GC are partners I think maxwell's play doesn't make sense. For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him. Furthermore, if GC and maxwell are both indeed fake, then surely there is at least one more PR or even two. If that/those PRs claim, then things get messy for them.

[Andresvmb]

For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him.

This is true, but looking at the context and how maxwell came out with it, at the very least it stops bad arguments against Green Crayons. And you have to admit that maxwell succeeded in that.

[RLotus]

In my mind Max, lotus, Andre's makes the most sense. Max's play is as I already described but the way they defend GC is pretty top tier scum play especially if they are shutting down a theory that scumbuddy Andre's is pushing.

This is the most paranoid world I ever saw

[RLotus]

For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him.

This is true, but looking at the context and how maxwell came out with it, at the very least it stops bad arguments against Green Crayons. And you have to admit that maxwell succeeded in that.

Yes but even still there are scum reads of GC floating around

[Andresvmb]

For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him.

This is true, but looking at the context and how maxwell came out with it, at the very least it stops bad arguments against Green Crayons. And you have to admit that maxwell succeeded in that.

Yes but even still there are scum reads of GC floating around

Sure. But it killed the momentum. And that’s super important.

[Andresvmb]

@VPB can you give me some thoughts on Momrangal? Am I seeing ghosts there? I argued with midwaybear that they were unlikely to be Scum because they didn’t have any defenders basically, and that they’re positioning didn’t make sense because they were attacking all of the more vocal slots. It’s not directly the case with Momrangal, but it’s a slight variation of this. However, I really do think that Momrangal is way off about me. And midwaybear did backtrack, unvoting VPB for example. Momrangal seems to be doubling down. What do you think?

[Andresvmb]

And besides, Momrangal’s hammer of midwaybear is still so obviously Scummy to me. And their defense for it just seems so in your face bullshit I can’t Town Read it.

[VP Baltar]

@VPB can you give me some thoughts on Momrangal? Am I seeing ghosts there?

That reads list is not great, I'll give you that.

[Momrangal]

I did see you as town, but you're play here is nothing like your play in bears

[Momrangal]

And you're still ignoring the fact that my vote was in response to someone I was town reading


You're blowing my vote out of proportion. I feel like everything is being blown out of proportion when it comes to you.

You're a confident player, but you're also one who can admit when they are wrong. You can see two sides of every coin and I don't see an attempt to look at both sides to every slot you're looking at
It all feels black and white with you and I know for a fact that you are not a black and white player so what's going on?

Even in bears you were willing to talk to Norwee as if he had the potential to be town.

In bears you saw me lock-town DBG when everyone else was willing g to push it as scum.

I'm not going to reconsider my read on DBG or dunnstral this game so like, I don't know where else to look.

VPB doesn't make sense as scum with his overall play and everyone else makes no sense as scum with how they have all been approaching and playing the game so if you're town, tell me where I'm wrong because the game is going to be lost and I know you care about that enough to do an entire overhaul on the thread

[VP Baltar]

I did see you as town, but you're play here is nothing like your play in bears

What are the specific differences?

[Momrangal]

Its not bears, its mizzys large normal.

[Momrangal]

Andres, as town is a broad prospective player. He doesn't really tunnel, and he makes alot of probing questions.
These quotes are just a portion of his Iso, but even in these few quotes I feel like it becomes apparent that he has much more depth in his reads. He doesn't even like to push unless hes absolutely sure that hes right and even then he still entertaining how they could be saying those things or doing certain actions from the other perspective,

VOTE: andresvmb

Because he can't be town all the time.

This shows a basic lack of understanding of how probabilities work. But that’s alright.

And honestly mom whiteknighting the Miller claim makes me more suspicious

Can you explain this actually? I didn’t think Momrangal was white knighting anything.

You jumping so quickly on such a crappy argument could be argued to be Scummy. We’ll see.

Either it’s scummy or it’s not m8.

I’m not your mate. And just because a post is silly or the logic behind your vote is bad it doesn’t mean you’re Scum. It just means I have to look closer.

Why do you think I am scum?

Well for one you ignored my question about momrangal. And you like my wagon for undisclosed reasons.

Last time we played, I could understand your POV. And you seemed more careful. Here you aren’t really being careful. I mean, you threw out a completely emotional reason to begin questioning my slot (based on literally faulty logic), and your focus seems overly narrow.

Whatever, just an early take. Some folks are already trying to sideline you by calling your approach superficial and what not. There’s probably something there, but you haven’t questioned it much.

I’ve had a game with you and I know you’re inclined to play that way.

But announcing your intentions unprompted that you’re going to “play support” is something else. I feel like binatong is leaning into the clueless thing too hard.

Passive play does make sense at the beginning of a large, but you don’t have to advertise it. Just do it and people will see.

Like this seems overly forced to me for example. Some people are just afraid of making mistakes or don’t feel like they can lead Town in a positive direction. Why the hate? It’s too stubborn in order to justify a vote that’s probably not there.

Oh and that vote by Ranny also seemed off. Somebody already expressed it but that blatant role fish by DGB... I just really doubt Scum would do that. I can already see myself being super self conscious about attracting that much attention to myself by doing something so obviously anti-Town.

Also, plus was only hating on my slot because I questioned their lack of initiative to start this game. There’s so much to say in my mind and all they have is that it seems like I’m putting too much effort at the beginning of the game and that might be Scum indicative? That’s nonsense, and plus knows better.

You can see that town Andre's thinks that NPOM is probable scum here but he isn't shutting him out. Hes still hearing him out, and hes still engaging with him and I don't think hes done that at all this game

[Andresvmb]

I did see you as town, but you're play here is nothing like your play in bears

Unless you’re willing to actually go out and (try to) prove this, it’s going to continue to feel like vague meta that btw, is just way wrong.

How am I not trying to see both sides of the various positions I’m taking? Have you not seen me constantly try and evaluate what’s going on? Who are my Scum buddies? I’ve aggressively voted for RLotus (D1), VPB (D2), Datisi (D3), Green Crayons (D2), You (D3), Elements (D1). I’ve clearly suspected maxwell too, though I don’t recall voting for them. Unless my buddy is strictly Dunn (and really, I probably just bus there for the Town cred), who am I aligned with? How do I possibly not strike you as just not informed? That’s what I’m really bothered by. You’re not even trying to make sense of any of the actual words I’ve put down, but you’re just constantly appealing to meta and vague arguments that are hard to fight.

[Momrangal]

In mizzys normal, he did mention that he is someone who is difficult to talk town, someone who is difficult to even bring down to begin with. I don't want to say him being alive this long is scum indicative because he was brought to Lylo in that normal game but the fact that all his opinions and statements are one sided are what is pinging me.