Open 807 | Town Win

[Battle Mage]

Perhaps they can, but that requires them to both know who the traitor is and sacrifice a kill, with pretty disastrous consequences if they're wrong.

D'oy. I forgot that this changed from the old version of stack the deck to this one. Never mind.

in which case, the traitor is slightly redundant anyway?

[Scipio1]

I'm also hard mindmelding with a lot of S_S's posts

imo the pool for today is {Mini, Dunnstral, maybe implo} in that order.

....2 lurkers? i know you can do better than that. Join me on Implo! Trust me, I'll give you a clean sweep!

implo's townier than those two though

[Battle Mage]

What do you think of my Mini case, BM?

I think it's clutching at straws, but you didn't have a lot to work with. I'm open minded to the idea Mini could be a traitor, but elimming the traitor serves no purpose if we are assuming there isn't a recruiter (I'll defer to you boffins on that one).

Basically, I'm not elimming Mini today, and I think it's a pretty lame play. And also considering I'm probably dying tonight I'd selfishly like to elim someone I genuinely suspect today.

[Battle Mage]

I'm also hard mindmelding with a lot of S_S's posts

imo the pool for today is {Mini, Dunnstral, maybe implo} in that order.

....2 lurkers? i know you can do better than that. Join me on Implo! Trust me, I'll give you a clean sweep!

implo's townier than those two though

dude, the other 2 have done virtually fuck all.

Implo was the biggest defender of known scum, in a game where we have now established scum are massively handicapped now 1 of them is dead.

How in God's name do you figure Implo is townier than 2 lurkers??

[Battle Mage]

I'm completely baffled with you Scipio, completely baffled.

[Battle Mage]

all being said, I don't wanna elim Mini today, but I do actually want Mini to do something.

[Scipio1]

I'm completely baffled with you Scipio, completely baffled.

hmm

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

[Battle Mage]

I'm completely baffled with you Scipio, completely baffled.

hmm

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

Implo can answer that, but I'm really really eager to hear your thoughts on my case (or as you call it, "attack") on Implo.

Gimme some content, because I'm really not following your positions at the moment (preferring elimming lurkers to people who have actually done scummy looking thing, especially Dunnstral, who I'm not sure you mentioned before today), and I'm sure you engaging with my reasoning will be constructive in sorting you.

[Battle Mage]

if I put myself in the mind of Scipio, I don't understand how you came to your scumreads. You were quite supportive of Implo on Day 1, and you casually joined the scum-elim wagon late-ish. But Implo is now 3rd on your list?

Instead of engaging with me, you ask Implo what that player thinks.

[Scipio1]

implo has said some decently townie things; Mini and Dunnstral have not (yes ik they're practically nonexistent)

obviously people offwagon are scummier today than yesterday which is why mini and dunnstral are top of my limpool

your confidence in your attack makes me reconsider and question myself which is why I'm asking him what his thoughts are about it

[Battle Mage]

implo has said some decently townie things; Mini and Dunnstral have not (yes ik they're practically nonexistent)

obviously people offwagon are scummier today than yesterday which is why mini and dunnstral are top of my limpool

your confidence in your attack makes me reconsider and question myself which is why I'm asking him what his thoughts are about it

if you read the player's recent posts, you'll see Implosion has already shared thoughts on it. All within the thread, my friend.

in terms of the on-wagon vs off-wagon distinction, I don't think it matters as much for players who simply didn't do anything. It's considerably worse to have actively defended scum, than to just happen to have been inactive when town happened to elim scum.

[Battle Mage]

Scipio - if you're brave here, and follow my lead, you'll be remembered as a hero forever.

[Scipio1]

._.

[implosion]

Eliminating a traitor doesn't do nothing, even if there's no recruiter. It gives us info that there's only one scum left. It gives us associatives. It gives us more nights for a possible Jailkeeper and/or Follower to get results, and makes those results more reliable.

Calling an elimination "lame" doesn't make it bad from a game-winning perspective.

I'm more talking to other people than you since you seem pretty sure you don't want to.

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

I think it's pretty reasonable to suspect me based on my play around Artemiana yesterday, at least on a surface level. I think he's making some unnecessary assumptions around how people would play around a traitor or around a 2-person scumteam, etc. I think I'll ultimately look fairly town on my play today and I'm not all *that* concerned even if I do eventually get mis-elimmed. I also agree with S_S that his statement "always push people that defended scum" is extremely narrow-minded. It's always about context.

I also think he's generally engaging with the game in a pretty towny way right now so I'm not really concerned about him beyond convincing him that I'm town, but he doesn't seem especially receptive to that right now so I'll try to do it later.

[Battle Mage]

._.

i know what you want

[Save The Dragons]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

[Battle Mage]

Eliminating a traitor doesn't do nothing, even if there's no recruiter. It gives us info that there's only one scum left. It gives us associatives. It gives us more nights for a possible Jailkeeper and/or Follower to get results, and makes those results more reliable.

Calling an elimination "lame" doesn't make it bad from a game-winning perspective.

Nah, contrary to popular belief, I like winning games. If it's lame, it means it's a losing plan. Basics of mafia is to elim the players in order of those who are most likely to be scum - not in order of those who will put up the least resistance.

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win - elimming the last mafia wins us the game. So why would we ever focus on the traitor?

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

I think it's pretty reasonable to suspect me based on my play around Artemiana yesterday, at least on a surface level. I think he's making some unnecessary assumptions around how people would play around a traitor or around a 2-person scumteam, etc. I think I'll ultimately look fairly town on my play today and I'm not all *that* concerned even if I do eventually get mis-elimmed. I also agree with S_S that his statement "always push people that defended scum" is extremely narrow-minded. It's always about context.

I don't think my assumptions are "unnecessary" - they are helpful for sorting.

"always push people that defended scum" is not "extremely narrow-minded". It should be a basic principle of mafia. I think you're getting "push people" confused with "elim people" - the two are not the same. In the long run, I think town gameplay would benefit from a general understanding that you penalise people who elim townies and fail to elim scum. That doesn't dictate how you approach ALL key decisions, and context should be taken into account. But I think the majority of players fail to understand the starting principle, and so you're off to a loser from the get-go.

I do think, aside from your interaction with flipped scum, the way you have worded some of your posts awkwardly pings me a lot. You're clearly a good player and intelligent too, so I don't expect you to completely fall apart as Artemiana did, and accordingly I set a slightly higher bar for what I would consider town-indicative posting from you.

[Battle Mage]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

we have to eliminate 1 player today. I don't want it to be Mini. I think you're overplaying it - you can look at Mini tomorrow if you really want, after I've died.

[implosion]

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win - elimming the last mafia wins us the game. So why would we ever focus on the traitor?

Because I'm not focusing on the traitor, I think she's scum and don't necessarily know which and don't buy your reasoning for her not being mainscum.

"always push people that defended scum" is not "extremely narrow-minded". It should be a basic principle of mafia.

It really shouldn't! If it was, scum would literally never defend each other and would just bus and automatically win off the town cred.

The basic principle of mafia is to consider, based on context of how the wagon went down and who the people in question are and whether that person likely would have been eliminated anyway and whether scum had anything to gain from defending them and so on and so forth... well, it's not that basic. Because it's a nuanced game, and you're wringing all the nuance out of it with most of your takes.

I agree it's a good idea to

bias

yourself toward people who defended scum being scum, but it isn't a good reason fullstop on its own without context.

[Save The Dragons]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

we have to eliminate 1 player today. I don't want it to be Mini. I think you're overplaying it - you can look at Mini tomorrow if you really want, after I've died.

sorry if you've already answered this, but how likely do you think mini is to be scum?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I kinda doubt scum even picked a PR

looking at the list of abilities - they are all kind of weak

thinking we are dealing with the 2 goon scenario here.

this is important because it means the town has only ONE TPR left.

I'd in fact think that if I'm scum, I'd definitely pick 0 PRs, then fakeclaim TPR later down the line, esp if town thinks scum DID pick a PR

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

[Battle Mage]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

we have to eliminate 1 player today. I don't want it to be Mini. I think you're overplaying it - you can look at Mini tomorrow if you really want, after I've died.

sorry if you've already answered this, but how likely do you think mini is to be scum?

traitor - slightly more likely than average
mafia - pretty unlikely, significantly more unlikely than average.

[Battle Mage]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

possible but i think that relies on a dominant scumbuddy who fancies themselves as a bit of a strategist. and cares more about winning than the fun of sick PRs.

[Save The Dragons]

VOTE: implosion